Farage: "I have thrown my hat into the ring"

[THECATINTHEHAT]

If you're using something to form your view on the world don't think it's kind of important to do what you can to check the reliability of a piece of evidence and critically review it?

Don't you think that's an important factor in forming your opinions on the world? You know, making sure you're not being led astray intentionally or otherwise?

 

[Ismene]

Owen...I dunno man. Just seems there might be a few more people UKIP could choose to emulate before Mr A Hitler? Might make people think they are less mental? "Churchill, great rhetoric!" Ya dig?

Does Churchill come to mind in a discussion of public speaking? He wouldn't enter my mind as a great public speaker. I'd think Hitler and Martin Luther King. Martin Luther King at his best might just shade Hitler at his best. I've never seen Churchill setting a crowd on fire with the passion of his speaking. All his best speeches were quiet bits done on radio - and I think almost all of the versions we've heard were done by a Churchill impersonator after the war anyway.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

Does Churchill come to mind in a discussion of public speaking? He wouldn't enter my mind as a great public speaker.

Well he did to John F Kennedy for example

Sir Winston Churchill, the man who 'mobilized the English language and sent it into battle' (JFK)

And

When Winston Churchill was just twenty-three years old, he composed an essay titled “The Scaffolding of Rhetoric,” in which he proposed “six principal elements” that should be the foundation of all rhetoric,

These are now fairly acclaimed devices for speaking. So...yeah.

But last night, while a bit pissed and stoned, I posted the first UKIP/Nazi item I could find through blurred eyes. There are hundreds more to choose from if you care to use google, not least the fact UKIP used to be run by a Nazi, they've used Nazi imagery in posters, they've mooted killing one gay person to stop 99 others 'turning' gay, not to mention the Islamophobic shite. Personally, even discussing them makes my skin crawl so forgive me Owen for simply interjecting with non peer-reviewed material from time to time in what is basically a pub discussion forum.

LSE is that way.

 

[ponch]

Whoever promises to not add 3p to a pint of beer gets my vote. INGERLAND

 

[bummer]

Any thoughts? Beyond sheer terror at the (very real) possibility of this guy ending up as the Nick Clegg figure in a future UKIP / Tory coalition government?

Now we have all this cold war tension the idea of Farage being anywhere near number 10 is pretty scary. ( Not that I think he's bloodthirsty, but he is a prick and probably more than capable of escalating tensions in the name of saving face - hopefully if the worst does happen Cameron will have the sense to keep him well away from any decisions and he'd just give some headline quotes for russia to be offended by )
We tend to just laugh at politicians here but when the world gets edgy it reminds me of the power they do wield.
Think the daily maily types might vote for him, but the E-E-EDF types will hopefully not register or just forget / cba.

PS - not a fan of europe, seems faceless and too big to be truly representative of da people, but not a fan of UKIP either

 

[ponch]

The reason for their rise is largely down to the fact that most eurosceptics do not realise there are left/centre options that are promoting an anti-EU agenda. When did you last see No2EU in the papers?

 

[Shambles]

Fucking hell you lot talk about UKIP like they're the national front.

Not quite but not so very, very far off in too many ways to discount. The fact they have no policies other than getting out of Europe and closing the borders means that people seem to just put whatever they want to believe on top of that. In most instances that seems to be horribly sexist, racist and homophobic stuff. Not saying every single person who has sympathies with one or t'other of their two policies would go in for the nastier stuff automatically but anybody who has any serious thoughts or opinions on those two policies would surely also be aware that those are their only two policies making them a vacuous protest vote at best.

I thought UKIP did not even have a manifesto? Did it not just contain, "Out of the EU" and "Close the Borders", until recently, or are they beginning to now work on other policies?

They apparently bought in a ready-made manifesto from some right-wing think tank to make it look like they had a manifesto of their own. When people actually read it and questioned them on some of "their" policies (like privatising the NHS) they backed off completely and said it wasn't actually their manifesto and they'd be working on producing a proper one before the election.

I didn't say he never mentioned Hitler, the point is we don't know the context and it's not a reliable source that can be trusted to report in an unbiased manner therefore I don't vest much weight to it.

No source is unbiased but any and all sources can be valid and useful if approached with due scepticism. In the case of UKIP, they've been caught out way too often on the Nazi stuff for it to be purely a media creation. Are all UKIP members and supporters Nazi sympathisers? Of course not. But enough are (by their own words, actions and admissions) to raise eyebrows.

Only material of theirs (as in officially sanctioned and approved of by themselves) I've read was their recent election bumph. You'd be hard-pushed to tell the difference between what they were saying and what the BNP say if it weren't for the fact it comes on yellow background rather than emblazoned in Union Flag red, white and blue. Much the same in terms of just making shit up about immigration, scaremongering and general unsubstantiated and highly fanciful drivel. The two main prongs of their election campaign appeared to be that we need to close out borders to keep EU immigrants from stealing our jobs (with hints of darker motives being innate to any such funny foreigner types) and the other big one being that EU Human Rights legislation prevents (non-EU) immigrants from being deported easily enough.

The reason they are viewed with suspicion is because they're approach to all things is suspiciously race-obsessed. When theyr'e not queer-bashing anyway 8)

 

[Ismene]

Well he did to John F Kennedy for example

Yeah I'm not knocking what Winnie said, just how he said it. Boring as fuck monotone - "whatever the cost may be..". Mind you Ronnie Kray used to play his speeches when he was getting psyched at Fort Vallance - used to have him on so loud the walls shook.

I think my fave speaker might be RFK when he announced to the crowd that MLK had just been shot - "I had a member of my family killed...".

 

[Vurtual]

I don't know why people can't see ukip for what they are - an establishment party. All those people who think voting for ukip is somehow standing up to the man is just laughable - Farrage is a hedge fund operating city of london spiv speculator and he doesn't even hide it (apart from his 'i'm a normal man in a pub' routine).

The question should be do you want to carry on with the neoliberalism (thatcherism) we've had for the last few decades? If you do ukip are very much your party (or labour/libdems/tory - any colour as long as it's black (or not black as the case may be)).

Do people really think that a party that would privatise the NHS and bring in flat taxes (before they even start thinking properly about their policies) are going to stand up for the little people? I suppose that if you're dull enough to think flat taxes are a good idea (or the national economy is like a housewife with a credit card) you'll probably believe anything (or are one of the rich people that would massively benefit from getting rid of progressive taxation)

A large part of the ukip audience seems to be based on the anti-intellectual pro-bigotry type of thinking promoted so well among american shlubs (eg the tea party). The sort of anti-establishment that think the gubberment taxing poor little rich people and telling me not to say 'nigger' is a reason to get rid of gubberment altogether (except for the military strangely); to be replaced with an enlightened elite of rich benefactors like koch brothers (who handily provide tea party with loads of dollar). Being against europe isn't really enough of an excuse to accept all the right wing stuff (as ponch said, you could have had No2EU). I mean anyone thinks that right wing policies are the way to create a better world for little people needs to go back and read the ideology again i reckon (or they're confident that they're not one of the little people in some way)

(and i don't think hitler was really that good an orator; aggressive, bullying, spittle-flecked rants against the nearest 'other'; - he just said what his audience wanted to hear, playing up to their bigotry and sense of importance (the 'silent majority' (that was never an actual majority)). Not much oratory was needed to press the xenophobic buttons of the fear-riddled right wing div in the street - it was ranting not oratory.

 

[RLP]

I think the bigger question is which seat do I challenge for? Somewhere in the north west or Essex way?

 

[serotonin-system]

Watch one of the many Hitler speeches on U-Tube, and tell me the guy isn't incredible.

 

[Vurtual]

He wasn't incredible. He never swayed the masses (at best the nazis never had a majority of votes - it was hindenberg that chose to let the nazis in as it was better than letting the lefties come back). I just don't think he was incredible - it's not oratory just shouting what you think over and over - i never felt persuaded by any speech i heard of him: he just spoke the unspoken feeelings of the reactionary morons; it was never even that well crafted, just shouting 'jews' and 'glory to the nation' lots - he was just a useful idiot whose time had come (and don't forget our own elites who helped bankroll him pretty much thought exactly the same way (they even tried to have a nazi-style coup in america in the 30s ('banking plot' i think it's called).

 

[Ismene]

He had his peak period tho virtual - the speech he gave at the sportspalast that's in the Leni Reifensthal documentary is in a different league to the others after he came to power. I think he hit his peak in 1932.

 

[Shambles]

Can't say I have an in-depth knowledge of his ouvre but tend to agree with Vurtual. Surely any truly great orator would be able to be at least a bit persuasive and all I see is hyperbolic ranting and brainless nationalism with mucho whinging, blame-shifting and scapegoating. Can't see how anybody could conceivably be moved in any way by the shouty lil runt to be honest. Intellectual capacity of a slow worm, charm and charisma of a meth-fuelled corpse and inspirational as any other uninspiring passing moron. Some of y'all have surprisingly low standards.

Given context, Churchill would be the obvious comparison and wipes the floor with Hitler as far as I can tell. Can't stand Churchill - horrible, racist, right-wing nutjob - and can't stand rousing nationalist speeches. Even so, he has a way with words and can see how people could be moved and inspired by some of what he said. Wouldn't like to have to listen to either of 'em but I could listen to Winnie if I absolutely had to.

 

[Vurtual]

Is that the churchill speeches which were voiced by an actor? I think some of the regard given to his speeches is warped through the lens of jingoistic nostalgia (and they didn't really have much impact at the time according to some). Still he did seem a bit better at words than hitler generally (comparing the two's output); though i suppose i can't judge hitler's speeches without learning german (the subtitles i read didn't move me though).

 

[Shambles]

Dunno. Wasn't around at the time to hear to compare. Sound like old radio recordings but really don't know. Good point on the not speaking German thing. Maybe he's a misunderstood rhetorical genius who got lumbered with shitty subtitles.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

Watch one of the many Hitler speeches on U-Tube, and tell me the guy isn't incredible.

“What luck for rulers that men do not think.”
― Adolf Hitler

...

 

[THECATINTHEHAT]

Exactly, which is why Hitler was so effective in his leading through essentially charisma alone and serves as a good example of what can be achieved through effective oratory.

 

[Ismene]

I thought Churchill was as dull as dishwater. Monotone boring fuck. Good words mind you but no talent as a speaker.

 

[Sammy G]

I think Churchill's monotone was a major weapon in his arsenal to be honest. Helped instill a sense of (false) calm and meant that when he did break out of it for a minute or two, it was all the more effective and affecting. Private accounts certainly attest to his manner being somewhat less predictable.

Hitler was the greatest performer of the Twentieth Century, outside of the arts. His use of Bühnendeutsch was masterful; try and translate one of his speeches word-for-word and you'll find it odd to say the least. It was almost a magickal language. In some cases it practically was.

Alright, so he got the better set designers, but regardless of your views on either his intellect or his aims, you just can't discount the guy.