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H&R Moderators: VerbalTruist
12 step discussion thread Voice your opinions here!
- Thread starter Get2Think
- Start date
nuttynutskin
Bluelighter
- Joined
- May 15, 2011
- Messages
- 10,725
Alright fair enough. Can we just drop this now? I think both sides have made their points but it's pointless to just keep arguing in circles when no one is going to change their stance or learn anything. I just don't particularly like assumptions being made about me but I'm willing to drop it and let the thread get back to other people.
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caseface99
Bluelight Crew
Of course not. But can you truly understand what it feels like to stand on the moon and look at the earth, unless you've done it? I would think not...
Academic understand < Experiential/Academic understanding
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@nutty the last thing I'll say is that all I meant when I said there is no scientific cure is that there is no way to change your brain and become immune to addiction, for lack of a better word. Just because you can't be cured scientifically doesn't remotely mean you need to use a higher power to recover. And Neither does AA - You said it yourself that AA says "once an alcoholic always an alcoholic" and now you're saying they claim to cure addiction with god.... As for everything else I'm just done with this.
No more science, one step, or discrediting x person discussion. 12 step discussion only, please. And I'm not saying this just to get the final word in. Feel free to post another reply to me in the future, as long as it's about the 12 steps...
Any future posts that are about one step or science or alternative programs will be be deleted/UA'd - I'll leave the posts you already made nutty so that people can see your arguments if they read through, but don't post about anything but the 12 steps anymore if you continue with this at all because it's really started getting off track. It's more of a sparring match to discredit each other at this point anyway when really we're both entitled to our opinions, they have been presented, and it should be over with now. Also I removed the two smart recovery videos you posted that were completely off topic, feel free to re post them in the 12 step alternatives thread. I left your smart recovery vs AA video as to not be biased.
And I'm curious nutty, and I think we may have different definitions of being in recovery - You specifically told me I was wrong to assume you were in recovery, and then you specifically told me I was wrong to assume you haven't had problems with addiction and taken care of it... so which is it? If you are fortunate enough to have gained back your willpower and use in moderation, legitimately and honestly without abusing, after being truly dependent to something in the past - then I commend you, but I still consider that recovery...
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caseface99
Bluelight Crew
^^ I don't know about psycho therapy, but essentially steps 4-11 could benefit anyone who used them, minus the part about asking god to remove your defects of character. but that doesn't exclude looking at and dealing with your defects of character.
w01fg4ng
Bluelighter
Step 7 simply states:
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
Or if you don't like the God stuff as provided by NSA and Case:
7. Forgave ourselves and others and worked through events that we had never dealt with, but instead had circumnavigated with the use of drugs.
or
7. We let go of dysfunctional thoughts and behaviors and we consciously welcome joy, love and peace into our lives.
Anyway you look at it, the conversation about STOP DRINKING and also having just "one beer", directly applies to Step 7. I am not making a personal attack, I'm simply correcting the mistake that pretty much EVERY addict I have ever known makes. It's called justification. We as addicts can justify our use to ourselves at the worst of times. I'm hoping that not just the person who eventually corrected the problems stated with their one step program, but others who read this, can see the connection made as it relates to 12 step recovery.
It's easy for an addict to justify use, even if it's completely illogical. Once we become aware of our shortcomings we are able to deal with them much easier.
It's rare that one can display this justification so easily. It just so happens that I was able to use mathematics to prove this. In most cases, it's too abstract to use science at all. In fact the same poster made a comment in the beginning of this debate stating, "It's not rocket science". The funny thing is I wish it were that easy.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
Or if you don't like the God stuff as provided by NSA and Case:
7. Forgave ourselves and others and worked through events that we had never dealt with, but instead had circumnavigated with the use of drugs.
or
7. We let go of dysfunctional thoughts and behaviors and we consciously welcome joy, love and peace into our lives.
Anyway you look at it, the conversation about STOP DRINKING and also having just "one beer", directly applies to Step 7. I am not making a personal attack, I'm simply correcting the mistake that pretty much EVERY addict I have ever known makes. It's called justification. We as addicts can justify our use to ourselves at the worst of times. I'm hoping that not just the person who eventually corrected the problems stated with their one step program, but others who read this, can see the connection made as it relates to 12 step recovery.
It's easy for an addict to justify use, even if it's completely illogical. Once we become aware of our shortcomings we are able to deal with them much easier.
It's rare that one can display this justification so easily. It just so happens that I was able to use mathematics to prove this. In most cases, it's too abstract to use science at all. In fact the same poster made a comment in the beginning of this debate stating, "It's not rocket science". The funny thing is I wish it were that easy.
itsALLfake
Bluelighter
"When you discover a prospect for alcoholics anonymous, find out all you can about him. If he does not want to stop drinking, don't waste time to persuade him. You may spoil a later opportunity. This advice is given for his family also. They should be patient, realizing they are dealing with a sick person."
caseface99
Bluelight Crew
Fantastic post man, wish it were that easy indeed.
I just can't stand when people say the entire thing is completely useless because of the god stuff. It doesn't matter if you look at it through god or ignore that part - the main point is looking at your character defects and consciously making an effort to change these shortcomings. There is no way that doing this wouldn't be beneficial. The only thing I can think of is people who are simply un-willing to admit that they aren't as perfect and powerful as they originally thought. In my opinion just about every person on the planet has some character defects they could benefit from changing, and in the case of addicts and alcoholics these changes can encourage staying sober through better living.
Space Firebird
Bluelighter
My view on this matter is that everyone posting here is sick, here of their own free will and sincerely trying to get better.
There are no blue-lighters here as a result of being ordered by the court to attend.
Further, there is no "one size fits all" approach, if there were there would be no ongoing problem of substance dependence; the appropriate cookie cutter would be constructed and applied to each person with a problem, much the same way that we treat immunization injections.
For that reason, it is important that we try to be gentle with each other as we each work to find our own way out of this maze.
It is my sincere wish that, regardless of methodology, each of us here find our way to a better life free from the various attachments that are holding us back.
There are no blue-lighters here as a result of being ordered by the court to attend.
Further, there is no "one size fits all" approach, if there were there would be no ongoing problem of substance dependence; the appropriate cookie cutter would be constructed and applied to each person with a problem, much the same way that we treat immunization injections.
For that reason, it is important that we try to be gentle with each other as we each work to find our own way out of this maze.
It is my sincere wish that, regardless of methodology, each of us here find our way to a better life free from the various attachments that are holding us back.
nuttynutskin
Bluelighter
- Joined
- May 15, 2011
- Messages
- 10,725
Lol, yeah ok. I'm out, I've said everything I have to say. I would've left this thread a long time ago except people want to keep engaging me because I'm strongly against AA. Funny because this all stemmed from another thread that was merged with this one. Otherwise I wouldn't have even posted in here. If they wanted the discussion only on AA and nothing else maybe they shouldn't have merged it.
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you have not much of a chance of staying sober unless you work on yourself with another addict and in return help other addicts work through they're troubles helping others with they're problems feels better than any high form drugs the whole idea of just not using but it's ok if you do cause that's not a setback well good luck finding inner peace living like that
caseface99
Bluelight Crew
Couldn't have said it better myself, Space. I agree with so many of the things that were said against AA in this thread. There are still just so many positives that can be utilized and the negatives are incredibly easy to ignore. If ignored they don't have any effect on you and if the positives help then there's no problem with that whatsoever. Also considering that whats positive and what's negative comes down to a matter of opinion, since everyone is different and may benefit from different aspects of something, I think AA deserves a fair chance. That's all I wanted to accomplish here - is maintain the point that if you don't agree with one part of something, it doesn't automatically make everything else related worthless - and going through life with that kind of attitude really won't get you very far if it's truly how you act/react to every situation.
As I said before everyone here including you is entitled to their own opinions, and I hope there are no hard feelings. The discussion got a bit heated and I really think it is best that we stop engaging one another. I'm not being hypocritical towards that point by quoting you hear, simply extending an olive branch of agreeing to disagree - not trying to engage further conflict. Also just for the record the topic of the original thread we had this scission in was specifically about AA which is why it was merged in the first place, It had nothing to do with shutting down the discussion. I hope you're well and sincerely hope you don't ever need to utilize any sort of recovery program - but if you ever do feel free to come share with us what's working for you.
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Who else here has worked the steps? I'm interested in discussing how people have gone through them because most people I know have slightly different ways of doing it.
itsALLfake
Bluelighter
Step 1-..admitting I am powerless, I will die if I keep using...took me a few days to come to terms with that one.
Step 2-...I don't remember step two.
Step 3- 3rd step prayer..meditated by a creek with sponsor, and wrapped it up with saying 3rd step prayer together.
Step 4- ....ever hear about 7-areas of self? It was started in Prescott, AZ a few years back... Resentment list... Then you categorize those resentments of each person for doing the 7 areas. I forget them..crazy it's been a year since I did that..wow. It's like self-esteem, ambition, selfish... I haven't gotten around to burning my step work book, so I'll go through them and get that up here for you... It's really repetitive..makes a ton of work.. Each category ends up taking up a page, front and back, and my 4th step was almost 110pages long.. Next, Fear inventory. After that is the sex inventory...I thought this was a lot more than the 7 areas.. I actually had to put a lot of thought into it. End it off with the sex ideal.. I had to come up with characteristics I'd want in myself, and I had to narrow it down to 5.
Step 5- Go through my entire 4th step with sponsor at his house, and then, I admitted anything I would be uncomfortable talking about or would never tell anyone.
Step 6- 1 hour of meditation
Step 7- Follow up the meditation with 7th step prayer.
Step 8- Make a list for amends I needed to make.
Step 9- Make amends..
Steps 10-12 are really just applying everything you've gained from working the other steps into your daily life, and being a positive influence to the world.
I didn't ever get sponsees. I stopped going to meetings after being home for about 5-6months. I've been meaning to get to one.. I have a slew of excuses I could throw at you, but they don't really matter, do they?
Step 2-...I don't remember step two.
Step 3- 3rd step prayer..meditated by a creek with sponsor, and wrapped it up with saying 3rd step prayer together.
Step 4- ....ever hear about 7-areas of self? It was started in Prescott, AZ a few years back... Resentment list... Then you categorize those resentments of each person for doing the 7 areas. I forget them..crazy it's been a year since I did that..wow. It's like self-esteem, ambition, selfish... I haven't gotten around to burning my step work book, so I'll go through them and get that up here for you... It's really repetitive..makes a ton of work.. Each category ends up taking up a page, front and back, and my 4th step was almost 110pages long.. Next, Fear inventory. After that is the sex inventory...I thought this was a lot more than the 7 areas.. I actually had to put a lot of thought into it. End it off with the sex ideal.. I had to come up with characteristics I'd want in myself, and I had to narrow it down to 5.
Step 5- Go through my entire 4th step with sponsor at his house, and then, I admitted anything I would be uncomfortable talking about or would never tell anyone.
Step 6- 1 hour of meditation
Step 7- Follow up the meditation with 7th step prayer.
Step 8- Make a list for amends I needed to make.
Step 9- Make amends..
Steps 10-12 are really just applying everything you've gained from working the other steps into your daily life, and being a positive influence to the world.
I didn't ever get sponsees. I stopped going to meetings after being home for about 5-6months. I've been meaning to get to one.. I have a slew of excuses I could throw at you, but they don't really matter, do they?
caseface99
Bluelight Crew
^ Very similar to how I've worked them. I went a bit more in depth. Step 1 I wrote 10 ways powerless over drugs, 10 ways powerless over alcohol, 10 ways powerless over people/places/ideas, 10 ways life unmanageable. Step 2 interviewed 20 people about their higher powers, which showed me that it does NOT have to be "god". with 6/7 - broke down character defects into the 7 deadly sins and how they apply to me. Instead of praying for god to remove them I meditated on becoming more aware of them and willing to do something different when I notice them. 10th step do a mini inventory everyday, usually in my head and only if there's anything worth noting. If i fuck up majorly I'd write about it.
I just got a sponsee a week or so ago, I'll see if they do the step work I gave them.
I just got a sponsee a week or so ago, I'll see if they do the step work I gave them.
itsALLfake
Bluelighter
^Oh yeah, I forgot about the countless interviews when I was on steps 1-4.. I remembered on step two, I had to write a page on my idea of god.
I also had to do the 11th step nightly review everyday before I even started working on the steps..that was a requirement by the facility I was in though..
I also had to do the 11th step nightly review everyday before I even started working on the steps..that was a requirement by the facility I was in though..
kkgb1035
Bluelighter
12 step NA/AA
what is everyone thoughts on the 12 step program?
i havent had very good experience in the past and am not a believer in the program.
i always found that finding out your own way to get clean and doing what works for you to work best.but i got shunned for it when i was in 12 step based rehab,
just wondering what everyone else thinks.
what is everyone thoughts on the 12 step program?
i havent had very good experience in the past and am not a believer in the program.
i always found that finding out your own way to get clean and doing what works for you to work best.but i got shunned for it when i was in 12 step based rehab,
just wondering what everyone else thinks.
caseface99
Bluelight Crew
---->>>>>>> Merged with 12 Step Discussion Thread
You'll find plenty of peoples opinions and discussion on 12 step programs in this thread.
You'll find plenty of peoples opinions and discussion on 12 step programs in this thread.
I'm desperate need of help and was relying on the 12step programme married twice 1 daughter first marriage another second marriage. Due to drugs and alcoholgambling Lost everything house paid off cars. Years off depression on alcohol and and drugs poor little girl. Met second husband tidied up and dabbled on occasions. Another daughter never dreamed could fall back to that hell whole. 44 years old single mum lost anther house cars 5 year old daughter to raise. Ice 8 months everyday alcohol. Have slowed down and trying to get off forever. Praying AA NA could save me and my girls I can't do this again. I just can't
I love Narcotics Anonymous. I do not like AA that much, but I have seen it work for some. Beyond that, I do not care what others think really. Also, I bashed 12 steps for quite some time. My disease resisted the hell out of the program. Even after I almost died, I still didn't accept the program. I do now though, and I feel right back into the pattern I had when I was healthy and clean in NA. Thankfully that year isn't lost... its more like "time served". I know where to go and am familiar with the literature. I got a sponsor immeditaly, let him go when it wasn't working for me but not until I had another sponsor ready. My current sponsor... holy shit is he good. I cannot emphasize how much of a difference this has made for me. Just knowing he is there for me gives me confidence. Best of all, he isn't a "Nazi Sponsor"... he lets me make the discovery. He is merely a guide and reminds me of this often. Talk about being grounded! I want that. He shows me I can have that too.
It wasn't until I got to the point that I was willing to do the work with an open mind that I realized that I really do have a connection with the universe. That was one of the most incredible feelings I have ever had. This happened to me Thursday and I have felt it occasionally sense. Best of all, it tends to happen the most when I am being kind to others!
My sponsor has 30 years clean on Tuesday and is a Christian. I am not, but I am spiritual. I take a little of this, a little of that etc etc. Right now my HP is simply NA, but that will likely evolve and change. We work really well together.
In my experience only, NA tends to be more focused on "the group" and "unity". I see God in my fellow brothers and sisters daily. That lets me know that the Spirit of the Universe is also in me. When we come together in love and harmony, we can see all things are possible, including getting and staying clean.
God knows I tried everything and I mean everything for over a decade to "manage" my addiction. I cannot. I suck at using drugs responsibly.
Also, NA is far from a "Christian" program. If it was, Iran wouldn't have the 2nd largest membership base outside of the US.
http://www.thefix.com/content/Iran-Narcotics-Anonymous-phonemoneon-Lavitt2099?page=all
It was also voted the top NGO of the year.
It wasn't until I got to the point that I was willing to do the work with an open mind that I realized that I really do have a connection with the universe. That was one of the most incredible feelings I have ever had. This happened to me Thursday and I have felt it occasionally sense. Best of all, it tends to happen the most when I am being kind to others!
My sponsor has 30 years clean on Tuesday and is a Christian. I am not, but I am spiritual. I take a little of this, a little of that etc etc. Right now my HP is simply NA, but that will likely evolve and change. We work really well together.
In my experience only, NA tends to be more focused on "the group" and "unity". I see God in my fellow brothers and sisters daily. That lets me know that the Spirit of the Universe is also in me. When we come together in love and harmony, we can see all things are possible, including getting and staying clean.
God knows I tried everything and I mean everything for over a decade to "manage" my addiction. I cannot. I suck at using drugs responsibly.
Also, NA is far from a "Christian" program. If it was, Iran wouldn't have the 2nd largest membership base outside of the US.
http://www.thefix.com/content/Iran-Narcotics-Anonymous-phonemoneon-Lavitt2099?page=all
It was also voted the top NGO of the year.
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Go to a meeting, preferably clean but even if not. Tell the chair or admit that you cannot stop using. If you did use wait till after the meeting to speak to the chair. You have to step out of your comfort zone. You are so worth it and so our your kids.
You are far far far from the only person in your situation. Many have been there, many have gotten clean. Its not magic, NA takes work but it does work. I am evidence of that. My sponsor is evidence of that.
What state are you located in? Fellowships vary in strength from place to place. NA tends to be very strong in certain states and in urban areas.
I will be at work most of the day, I will try to check back though.
Also, I need to note that I have been to some very good AA meetings.
Emeillia, www.intherooms.com has video meetings. IMO only, not as good as Face to Face meetings but still better then nothing.
Also, do not be afraid to call the local "helplines"
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