12 step discussion thread Voice your opinions here!

[neversickanymore]

opened back up then.. I was just trying to get this thread back on track as it falling apart.. but I will be happy to see this thread go as this argument will never be settled. So if it gets to off track it will get closed.

 

[nuttynutskin]

Nah that's fine, I'm done with this one... And you're right, I think that this is one of those arguments that will never be settled and no one really learns anything from unfortunately. Kind of like pro-choice vs pro-life. I think the most important thing is that someone finds the program that best suits them. But I will just stop there before I fuel the fire further. lol

 

[caseface99]

I would recommend trying both like NSA said. I was mainly a drug user in my addiction though I don't consider being an alcoholic to be an different than being an addict, and also in the young peoples AA community at least you'd be hardpressd to find someone who hasn't also done drugs. On the other hand there are some topics that I only feel comfortable sharing about at NA meetings because there are some people in AA who make the bullshit "outside issues" argument.
(if drugs are an outside issue, then so is finances and women/relationships and car trouble and work problems and school difficulties and EVERYTHING else in life besides specifically alcohol. you can't call drugs an outside issue but not all that stuff especially when the big book itself mentions drugs in many of the stories INCLUDING bill w and Dr. bob)

Either way, I'd try both. I'd also highly recommend young peoples AA meetings (unless you are 40-50 or older but even then you would still be welcome) I tend to go to mainly YPAA meetings (young peoples) for friends and fellowshipping, and go to NA meetings for recovery. That's not to say there isn't good recovery at the young peoples meetings, but it's not quite as serious sometimes. just depends on the meeting. anyway, I would try both before deciding they aren't for you. And if you do decide that 12 step groups aren't for you, then there is always smart recovery and lifering that you could try.

Good luck! I'll probably let a few more people respond to this and then move it into the 12 step discussion thread at some point, by the way.

 

[Oxy_Ghost]

I would recommend trying both like NSA said. I was mainly a drug user in my addiction though I don't consider being an alcoholic to be an different than being an addict, and also in the young peoples AA community at least you'd be hardpressd to find someone who hasn't also done drugs. On the other hand there are some topics that I only feel comfortable sharing about at NA meetings because there are some people in AA who make the bullshit "outside issues" argument.
(if drugs are an outside issue, then so is finances and women/relationships and car trouble and work problems and school difficulties and EVERYTHING else in life besides specifically alcohol. you can't call drugs an outside issue but not all that stuff especially when the big book itself mentions drugs in many of the stories INCLUDING bill w and Dr. bob)

Either way, I'd try both. I'd also highly recommend young peoples AA meetings (unless you are 40-50 or older but even then you would still be welcome) I tend to go to mainly YPAA meetings (young peoples) for friends and fellowshipping, and go to NA meetings for recovery. That's not to say there isn't good recovery at the young peoples meetings, but it's not quite as serious sometimes. just depends on the meeting. anyway, I would try both before deciding they aren't for you. And if you do decide that 12 step groups aren't for you, then there is always smart recovery and lifering that you could try.

Good luck! I'll probably let a few more people respond to this and then move it into the 12 step discussion thread at some point, by the way.

Yeah the young peoples meetings might be better, I'm 23. But my mom is in rehab(comin home next week) and she said she'd go to meetings with me and my fiancé will be going to them too when she gets home so I'm sure she'd go with me. I'd feel more comfortable with them with me. I'm a very very shy person until I get to know you, I've always been that way. So having someone I know with me would help a lot. But I'll experiment with the different kinds. I'm sure I'll find something for me

 

[w01fg4ng]

I'm done with this one

I asked you a simple question about how a one step program (which says STOP DRINKING) allows you to also have one beer without it being a relapse. Very fair question which you never even began to answer.

It really has nothing to do with who is right or wrong. I'm actually attempting to learn something from you. But I'm not expecting anything really.

 

[nuttynutskin]

I asked you a simple question about how a one step program (which says STOP DRINKING) allows you to also have one beer without it being a relapse. Very fair question which you never even began to answer.

I already answered that. Do you have wax in your ears or something? And what part of I'm done with this one don't you understand?

I'm actually attempting to learn something from you. But I'm not expecting anything really.

I'm as convinced that you're trying to learn something from me as much as I'm convinced that Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy are real, especially going by your last sentence. Stick with your miraculous indisputable 12 steps and I'll stick with willpower, science, and self empowerment if I ever feel the need to beat an addiction.

 

[w01fg4ng]

I'll stick with willpower, science, and self empowerment if I ever feel the need to beat an addiction.

This is a good start.

 

[caseface99]

That specific question (where does one beer fit in your Steps?) is in direct context of nutty's 1 step program. He claims that all he has to do is follow one step, which is to not drink. He also claims that one beer is not a relapse.

Feel free to follow nutty's one step program if it works for you, however it's flaws are more obvious than Reagan's "Just Say No" program. At least Reagan's program is sound.

Nutty isn't in recovery, "allegedly" doesn't have a problem drinking at all, has never been to an AA meeting and based on all of this has likely never been in recovery to begin with. It's really not worth debating with him. If he isn't an alcoholic, then he doesn't get it. He doesn't understand that there is more to it then "just don't drink" and he will never be capable of understanding that unless he becomes a real alcoholic. Trying to explain this shit to him is like trying to explain a mathematical formulation of quantum mechanics to an autistic child. It's simply not possible. That's not an insult to nutty, either - not in the slightest. It's not his fault that he can't understand he just isn't an alcoholic. He can't understand why "not drinking" doesn't work anymore then I can understand why he's even posting in this thread. Do as you wish, but I'm not gonna waste my time.

I'll stick with willpower, science, and self empowerment if I ever feel the need to beat an addiction.

Thanks man I literally laughed out loud after reading this. I honestly wouldn't wish addiction on my worst enemy, but maybe one day you WILL have to face a real, serious addiction to something and THEN, only then, will you understand that willpower and science go out the window when you're laying on the floor having seizures, puking, and shitting all over yourself while (seriously) contemplating blowing your brains out to stop the horrific, unimaginable torture you are enduring. Why do you consider science to hold so much weight when there IS NO scientific cure for addiction to date, not even anything close?

 

[nuttynutskin]

Fuck me, why am I being reeled back into this...

Nutty isn't in recovery, "allegedly" doesn't have a problem drinking at all, has never been to an AA meeting and based on all of this has likely never been in recovery to begin with. It's really not worth debating with him. If he isn't an alcoholic, then he doesn't get it. He doesn't understand that there is more to it then "just don't drink" and he will never be capable of understanding that unless he becomes a real alcoholic.

How do you know that I've never had a problem with substances that I overcame on my own? Just because I don't currently doesn't mean shit about my past.

Trying to explain this shit to him is like trying to explain a mathematical formulation of quantum mechanics to an autistic child. It's simply not possible. That's not an insult to nutty, either - not in the slightest.

I find that totally offensive not just to me but to people with autism. It doesn't even sound like you know what autism is because a lot of autistics are extremely gifted and knowledgeable in on specific interest. I don't buy it for two seconds that you don't mean that as an insult, just like earlier when you said something to the effect of "good luck in your recovery". You don't mean that shit for an instant, I can tell. You don't even know me or whether I'm "in recovery" or not.

It's not his fault that he can't understand he just isn't an alcoholic. He can't understand why "not drinking" doesn't work anymore then I can understand why he's even posting in this thread. Do as you wish, but I'm not gonna waste my time.

Again how do you know I never considered myself addicted to anything just because I don't now. Or just because I don't buy into the bullshit that you're always an addict or alcoholic. It's counterproductive to recovery. And as far as "not drinking" or perhaps I should've said "trying your best not to drink", again tell me how that differs from AA's goal. Just because my program doesn't revolve around turning your own willpower over to some stupid higher power that may or may not exist. And if you're not going to waste your time why I you still bothering to respond?

Thanks man I literally laughed out loud after reading this. I honestly wouldn't wish addiction on my worst enemy, but maybe one day you WILL have to face a real, serious addiction to something and THEN, only then, will you understand that willpower and science go out the window when you're laying on the floor having seizures, puking, and shitting all over yourself while (seriously) contemplating blowing your brains out to stop the horrific, unimaginable torture you are enduring. Why do you consider science to hold so much weight when there IS NO scientific cure for addiction to date, not even anything close?

Do you realize how condescending and biased you come across in this thread? You truly are brainwashed just like the other poster. You think there's no science to having what you're describing as severe withdrawals? Maybe you'd like to tell me where it is that AA comes in to save the day with withdrawals and cravings? Oh wait, that's right they don't. And like I already brought up, remember that they're even against naloxone, a drug PROVEN to help people to get sober off of alcohol. What about detox centers? They're based on science, not a stupid program created in the 1930's by two drunks. But nope... Herp derp, just join our cult, trade in your own willpower to some higher power and admit you'll always be helpless. Disregard modern day science that's effective in treating people's addictions. Who's laughing now?

 

[dwamn]

for me i've been to too many NA meetings that people didn't take shit serious i find it much easier to find an AA meeting with real serious recovery and no one gives me shit that i'm not there for alcohol haven't been able to even hold down a sip of booze w/o puking for years my problem is IV opiates

 

[w01fg4ng]

Nutty isn't in recovery, "allegedly" doesn't have a problem drinking at all, has never been to an AA meeting and based on all of this has likely never been in recovery to begin with. It's really not worth debating with him. If he isn't an alcoholic, then he doesn't get it. He doesn't understand that there is more to it then "just don't drink" and he will never be capable of understanding that unless he becomes a real alcoholic. Trying to explain this shit to him is like trying to explain a mathematical formulation of quantum mechanics to an autistic child. It's simply not possible. That's not an insult to nutty, either - not in the slightest. It's not his fault that he can't understand he just isn't an alcoholic. He can't understand why "not drinking" doesn't work anymore then I can understand why he's even posting in this thread. Do as you wish, but I'm not gonna waste my time.

I completely agree.

I also think that anyone has the potential to become an addict, and often times when people become addicted to something it's much too late for them to KNOW how to ask for help. They spend years convincing themselves that the "system" is to blame and they have ALL the answers. This often occurs because they have a pre-conceived notion of what an addict is and what the 12 steps are (as well as ANY recovery program EXCEPT their own) without actually doing real research. What happens to this type of addict is usually pretty devastating because they never seek the help they actually need. They end up suffering alone and often times end up dead that way. It's pretty sad really.

you nutty

 

[ebola?]

If he isn't an alcoholic, then he doesn't get it.

Do you need to be an astronaut to learn about the moon?

I'll stick with willpower, science, and self empowerment if I ever feel the need to beat an addiction.

The science of addiction has demonstrated that reliance on raw willpower is not particularly useful for most addicts. Indeed, addiction itself is a syndrome characterized by the erosion of the exercise of will due to short term urges.

ebola

 

[Oxy_Ghost]

for me i've been to too many NA meetings that people didn't take shit serious i find it much easier to find an AA meeting with real serious recovery and no one gives me shit that i'm not there for alcohol haven't been able to even hold down a sip of booze w/o puking for years my problem is IV opiates

Yeah from what most have said, AA seem more for me even though I don't drink. I was snorting and shooting oxycodone and shooting H. And like you, I can't keep a sip of alcohol down. Just thinking about it makes me wanna throw up

 

[nuttynutskin]

What happens to this type of addict is usually pretty devastating because they never seek the help they actually need. They end up suffering alone and often times end up dead that way. It's pretty sad really.

In other words if you don't do the 12 step program you're going to die an alcoholic. Yup heard it before. And this is precisely the mentality that makes me despise everything related to AA.

you nutty

Puh-lease. 8(

The science of addiction has demonstrated that reliance on raw willpower is not particularly useful for most addicts.

Sure if you're physically addicted to a substance. That's where detox treatment comes in. But according to Case there is no scientific cure for addiction so that must mean that people should rely on a higher power or something to get them through potentially deadly withdrawals.

Oh noes!!! SCIENCE!!!

 

[w01fg4ng]

Puh-lease. 8(

It's difficult to believe a complete stranger cares for you when you don't care for yourself.

 

[nuttynutskin]

It's difficult to believe a complete stranger cares for you when you don't care for yourself.

It's difficult to believe a stranger can make so many assumptions about somebody over the internet that they don't even know.

Oh noes!!! More science and self empowerment... The horror!!!

 

[w01fg4ng]

It's difficult to believe a stranger can make so many assumptions about somebody over the internet that they don't even know.

The facts are clear. You made an unsound argument (oh noes science!) in your one step program and have not made a single attempt to correct your obvious logistically incorrect statement. You still have yet to explain to ANYONE how you follow one step of STOP DRINKING and yet you can have a beer and never relapse.

There is no assumption here. I'm calling you out on your clear lack of scientific knowledge.

 

[GenericName12]

The answer is often simple: "Nothing at all."

Findings: Of people classified with PPY alcohol dependence, 25.0 percent were still classified as dependent in the past year; 27.3 percent were classified as being in partial remission; 11.8 percent were asymptomatic risk drinkers who demonstrated a pattern of drinking that put them at risk of relapse; 17.7 percent were low-risk drinkers; and 18.2 percent were abstainers. Only 25.5 percent of people with PPY dependence ever received treatment. (Source)

In other words, many people classified as "alcoholic" are able to "adjust" their drinking habits on their own. A lot of this depends on the severity of the alcoholism, of course -- as well as other social pressures and situation. It all depends, but for the type of person that is at the stage where they recognize their drinking habits are harmful and back off on their own... I'd say AA/NA type meetings are totally useless.

Please understand the results you are quoting.

... in the past year ...

That is an incredibly important piece of information. If someone is an alcoholic and is drinking casually this year, that does not mean that down the road this path of drinking moderately will continue which is EXACTLY what this article is trying to subtly make you think.

Saying that only 18.2% of alcoholics recover by abstinence and quoting this article, is an absolutely fucking ridiculous and untrue statement.

and to chime in my thoughts on the initial post..

I believe if people are struggling with addiction then why not give AA a shot? Saying it is stupid and won't "work for me" is a defeatist attitude. You don't know what is going to work for you. You have literally nothing to lose except a couple of hours. If you don't like it, leave. Period. Don't go back.

Also nutty, AFAIK, case endorses SMART recovery as well.

 

[nuttynutskin]

The facts are clear. You made an unsound argument (oh noes science!) in your one step program and have not made a single attempt to correct your obvious logistically incorrect statement. You still have yet to explain to ANYONE how you follow one step of STOP DRINKING and yet you can have a beer and never relapse.

There is no assumption here. I'm calling you out on your clear lack of scientific knowledge.

What are you, some high up sponsor in the AA cult? Seriously don't even know why I'm still here wasting my time, but yes one step... Stop drinking, or maybe I should've said try your best to stop drinking. I never specified what resources people could use to achieve that step. Whether they need detox to keep from dying, group therapy, just do it on their own... WHATEVER. That still falls under my one step. And yes I believe you can have a problem with alcohol, get better and still be able to drink unlike AA. So with that I'm hardly contradicting myself in saying drinking one beer is only a relapse if you consider it one. Nice try tho.

As far as "calling me out" on my clear lack of scientific knowledge, that's laughable. Can I just say PROJECTION again? That's all you AA types seem to be good at. I provided plenty of evidence in posts and videos why a scientific approach is better than AA. Perhaps you would like to tell me how AA is so scientific when they're against drugs that can help people off alcohol, and afaik don't even address the need for detox in severe cases. I guess you should just pray to god or your higher power that you make it through your severe DT's without the help of modern medicine, and if you don't make it it was just your time to go.

 

[herbavore]

Most people in recovery have been exposed to the 12-step approach to recovery through Alcoholics Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous, and most have very definite opinions about it, based on their personal experiences. This thread has been created to allow for the passionate opinions both pro and con and everything in between. The point of this thread is not to convince anyone of a particular point of view. Ideally, this thread will create a place to participate in an intelligent, civil and nuanced discussion that allows people to grow their understanding of someone's experience that is different from their own. At its basest level it may serve a similar purpose to the Vent/Rant thread. Either way, it is the thread to come to if you want to assert your own point of view about the 12-steps. It is important to note that many people see the benefits of a 12-step approach to be a literal life-saver. Others feel it actually deepens their addiction. Those are highly personal experiences and it is good to remember that people are literally fighting for their lives. So, without name-calling or shaming, but with mutual respect, everyone who feels so inclined now has a thread to debate in. If a general argument about AA/NA surfaces in another person's personal thread, it will be moderated and the poster will be directed to this thread. So play fair and have at it!

*rude or abusive posts will not be tolerated. Treatment and programs are very controversial. It is a complex subject that we all feel very passionate about for extremely personal reasons. Always keep in mind that the goal of discussion and debate is to expand knowledge, not to contract it.

I actually wrote this paragraph and the little asterisk part at the bottom, when this thread was originally created. I think one thing that really would help is to not personalize the debate. Everyone posting here has views which are shared and backed up by millions of people worldwide. So let's just debate the substance of the subject without letting it get to you when someone disagrees with your idea. Everyone here struggles with dependence and/or addiction. Respect for one another and looking for bridges of agreement in such a polarized subject seems more productive to me than just kicking the same old dead horse. My 2 cents.