12 step discussion thread Voice your opinions here!

[cyberius]

To quote one of AA/NA' s own methods: "Take what works. If it doesn't help you, leave it." 95% of things said in meetings don't help me. But I still occasionally go for that 5%. I go for the people who have lessons of their own, unrelated to 12 steps, to teach.


I don't like "if you don't follow OUR way, you WILL relapse and die" what a horrible mindset for those who already have with issues with black and white thinking. I don't like the absolutism of "You are powerless"... then how the fuck do I recover? The 12 steps enter my body and do it for me? No. Fuck that. We have the power. We just haven't been honing and using it.

My biggest problem is this: "Higher power", "spirituality", or "god" is in steps 2,3,5,6,7,11,12. That is literally the majority of the program based on "Higher power"... This program was made for those who like the "god" paradigm already. If you don't, how could you possibly work a program if you don't understand 7/12 steps?

12 steps isn't right for me. For many it can be damaging with their extremely polarized thinking, full of absolutes and refusal to compromise. That being said, every single one of us can and should learn a thing or two from meetings. If it doesn't apply to you, ignore it. But keep listening, really listening, because one day one of those abnoxious, cliche sayings might click and make you see the world completely different.

I definitely agree with that. Me personally I dislike meetings and the whole junkie tears thing kinda just rubs me the wrong way (idk whether to call it entitlement or superiority but its probably me being shitty) but what really helped me is the 12 steps and the overarching theme of the meetings.

Admit what you're doing wrong to yourself, then onto others. Forgive humiliate become mindful repeat. It's all too common sense that many of us superior inferiors overlook.

 

[Scrofula]

The Steps themselves are self-defeating but also impossible:

1) Blah blah, admit you are powerless over alcohol. | Well, if you're powerless, why the fuck bother with the next 11?
2) Had an epiphany. | An epiphany isn't something you will to happen. You can't talk yourself into believing there's supernatural forces interested in whether you get fucked up on hooch or not, unless your drink of choice is ayahuasca. You have to "open up" to the Spirit or hold hands and cry at a Jars-of-Clay concert (I have no idea).

In my rehabs, the non-church-going were clearly straining as that they sat chain-smoking staring at the hillsides trying to will themselves into a whole new belief system. At least half decided that the "hawks" they would see high in the sky were their Higher Powers, and they could write that down on their little "work the steps" sheets.

I only told one or two that those birds were actually turkey vultures, and I didn't ask any fellow inmates how they were supposed to ask the turkey vultures for power over alcohol. Although, the day someone trains a turkey vulture to smash through a Kwik-E-Mart's barred windows to knock a relapse-pint of J&B out of his hands, I might consider going back to a meeting.

So you're already a hopeless loser with no willpower before you even get to the only practical description: our lives had become unmanageable. The solution is to find a random object to worship as an idol--a random stick will do--and let it tell you what to do.

Old-timers will snap back, scolding: "you need to find something greater than yourself". The implication here is that you're selfish, and hold yourself with greater regard than any one else. But even if you're sincere and really believe you're doing the steps for your precious 8yo, how exactly do you give her your "will"?

Already there's way too much exegesis for what should be simple therapy to figure out why you're drinking, during a year-long dry-out.

But last thing, in terms of "working" the steps, very few of them require actual "work": #4 has you write stuff #8 you make a list. #9 is really all there is, making amends to people (except if doing so would cause them harm, so kind of weasel room there).

The whole thing would be better summarized as "think about what you did and say you're sorry."

That I can't disagree with. It's also pretty damned difficult. It also has fuck-all to do with staying sober. Usually, feeling sorry for yourself, bringing up painful memories, telling other people you're sorry--is just Saturday morning for a drunk, and his typical excuse for hitting the sauce again in an hour.

The danger is, with the steps you give up your will, and with it your accountability. You're no longer to blame.

 

[Grinders Kiefers]

I don't like "if you don't follow OUR way, you WILL relapse and die" what a horrible mindset for those who already have with issues with black and white thinking. I don't like the absolutism of "You are powerless"... then how the fuck do I recover? The 12 steps enter my body and do it for me? No. Fuck that. We have the power. We just haven't been honing and using it.

A lot of individuals carry an absolutist or fundamentalist attitude in AA/NA, but not everyone is like that. I've found it much more in AA, personally. The old timers decree what is to be done, and everyone else lines up. You find it all over, really. It seems like most people want to be controlled or told what to do, or at least don't have much capacity to think for themselves so they just blindly follow whatever others are saying, and then regurgitate it back to newcomers. I've said it here before, most times the people with big personalities and loud voices are full of shit. The lowkey members who don't present themselves with pageantry and theatrics are usually more down-to-earth and have something meaningful to say.

As far as higher power, I think you said it yourself. "We have the power". Think of the line, "I can't but we can". Faith in a higher power can be as simple as putting your trust in other members in the program, that they may have a better solution than whatever you've been doing. I had to accept that my way wasn't working, and probably never would, and that freed me up to ask others what they do. You'll most likely hear a lot of bullshit as well as some good ideas, and the answer for you is somewhere in the middle. I don't think any of this is groundbreaking or exclusive to 12 step recovery, however there is something useful about being able to talk to others who have been down to the horrible places that addiction takes us and see how they've gotten past it.

 

[LopLover]

fuck AA/NA. I refuse to pretend "your higher power is a lightbulb" as was suggested to me. I am also not going to pretend the universe is my higher power, i am part of the universe so that does not make sense. Sure some people get something out of step-based meetings and power to them, and good luck. But they are not for me. At the moment my support consists of:
- SMART meetings
- Bluelight

And I am doing ok right now. Much better than when i had to "hand myself over to a higher power", fuck that man.

Actually, the Universe IS my Higher Power--because I am a part of it and believe that all things are connected, as the Buddhists and many Native Peoples say. I was a junkie for decades, and never thought of quitting--no matter what it did to my health, my legal situation, or anyone around me, I just wanted to shoot dope. So I did, even after I started going to prison. I read a lot there, much of it about other religions than the three western ones: Judaism, Islam, and Christianity. I have no use for organized religion--it's all a scam where the aristocratic class dicks over the peasants and uses their knowledge of the stars and such to keep a stranglehold on the proles. And to keep that money coming to them.

I still don't practice or believe in organized religion, although I'm willing to take what I find useful from them and leave the rest. When I did the steps in AA the first time, I just said the words from the book into the air, which my sponsor (who was also a very close friend who had gotten sober) said was OK. She said I could use God as an acronym for Good Orderly Direction or Group of Drunks and/or Dopefiends. I prefer AA, and I am an alcoholic, although I haven't drank in 30 years. It started getting me too sick to keep doing it, so I switched to drugs. I'm also on Suboxone maintenance, and NA is very opinionated about such things. AA mostly doesn't even know what it is, and the few who do know use the line in the Big Book "we are not doctors." I have had some mystical, spiritual if you want to use that terminology, experiences through working the steps and trying to practice principles, and they have changed me. I don't have any cravings, although I tried to taper off the Sub and they came back. So I went back on a low dose, and am stable again.

It's practicing principles that has done the most for me; learning I don't always have to be right, not hating anyone, trying to be positive and kind--if there is a religious leader I believe in, it's the Dalai Lama. I've read most of his books and many others on both Tibetan and Zen Buddhism, not because I want to be a Buddhist; I just want to learn to meditate right, and those seem to be the best sources of meditation guidelines. We don't have SMART meetings in my little town, and I discovered that I had to have some contact with real people in recovery. It didn't work for me to do it by myself.

I've been clean and sober this time for almost 9 years, after some serious bumps in the road: Shot dope, drank, and took pills for 20 years or so, got sober for almost 5, went out on heroin for 3, got sober again for 4, relapsed on prescription pills, Oxys, Vicodins, Xanax, and Ambien for several years--not sure how long--and then got clean again and have stayed that way for almost 9. I don't think I'd of done it without the support of my F2F friends as well as my online ones, mostly FB. Hope that's not too long, but it's my story and I'm sticking to it... Best of luck to you and I hope that what you're doing continues to work. You sound like you have your head on straight. Just because the 12-Steps helped me, I get that they aren't for everyone. So anything that a person does that works and doesn't harm anyone is cool with me. ~namaste~

 

[LopLover]

Thanks, herbavore, for your insightful and courteous post. You understand the issue from both sides and can speak to both of them. I made a fairly long post a little while ago responding to someone who was anti-AA, and posted my story, which is about AA helping me to stay sober--along with other things. I hope the OP, and everyone else realizes that I'm not trying to be a pro-AA zealot; I understand the program's faults and limitations very well, and yes, it has many. Some are inherent in the steps and the foundation of the 12-Steps, and others have to do with different meetings. There are some I'd never go to twice, and others where I feel welcome and content. But I'm far from believing that AA is the end-all and be-all of recovery, nor do I believe it is without flaws. It just helped ME, that's all. So did--and does--maintenance treatment with Suboxone, something that I don't share with many in the program, simply because I don't believe it's anyone else's business, except perhaps a couple of people I consider close friends. ~namaste~

 

[LopLover]

I don't doubt that since there's 12 step programs for smokers, although AA doesn't seem to have a problem with that. lulz Are there any 12 step programs for eating too much Twinkies? Probably. 8)

You'd be amazed at how many programs there are for food addicts! Since people still have to eat, they all define "abstinence" differently. Overeaters Anonymous teaches setting up a food plan, and relapse is if you go off it and cheat. Food Addicts Anon. use eating anything with white sugar or white flour as a relapse. I think there's an Eating Disorders Anon and a Binge Eaters Anon and people with problem eating can go to Emotions Anon as well. It's kind of crazy. On top of that, there are many more non-Steps programs like Weight Watchers, Nutrisystem, Shakeology, TOPS, and on and on. I know all this because I've been on and off bulimic all my life, with periods of binge eating without vomiting in which I just get horribly fat and then starve myself to get it off. Most people with addiction disorders have an unhealthy relationship to food as well...

 

[cyberius]

The Steps themselves are self-defeating but also impossible:

1) Blah blah, admit you are powerless over alcohol. | Well, if you're powerless, why the fuck bother with the next 11?
2) Had an epiphany. | An epiphany isn't something you will to happen. You can't talk yourself into believing there's supernatural forces interested in whether you get fucked up on hooch or not, unless your drink of choice is ayahuasca. You have to "open up" to the Spirit or hold hands and cry at a Jars-of-Clay concert (I have no idea).

In my rehabs, the non-church-going were clearly straining as that they sat chain-smoking staring at the hillsides trying to will themselves into a whole new belief system. At least half decided that the "hawks" they would see high in the sky were their Higher Powers, and they could write that down on their little "work the steps" sheets.

I only told one or two that those birds were actually turkey vultures, and I didn't ask any fellow inmates how they were supposed to ask the turkey vultures for power over alcohol. Although, the day someone trains a turkey vulture to smash through a Kwik-E-Mart's barred windows to knock a relapse-pint of J&B out of his hands, I might consider going back to a meeting.

So you're already a hopeless loser with no willpower before you even get to the only practical description: our lives had become unmanageable. The solution is to find a random object to worship as an idol--a random stick will do--and let it tell you what to do.

Old-timers will snap back, scolding: "you need to find something greater than yourself". The implication here is that you're selfish, and hold yourself with greater regard than any one else. But even if you're sincere and really believe you're doing the steps for your precious 8yo, how exactly do you give her your "will"?

Already there's way too much exegesis for what should be simple therapy to figure out why you're drinking, during a year-long dry-out.

But last thing, in terms of "working" the steps, very few of them require actual "work": #4 has you write stuff #8 you make a list. #9 is really all there is, making amends to people (except if doing so would cause them harm, so kind of weasel room there).

The whole thing would be better summarized as "think about what you did and say you're sorry."

That I can't disagree with. It's also pretty damned difficult. It also has fuck-all to do with staying sober. Usually, feeling sorry for yourself, bringing up painful memories, telling other people you're sorry--is just Saturday morning for a drunk, and his typical excuse for hitting the sauce again in an hour.

The danger is, with the steps you give up your will, and with it your accountability. You're no longer to blame.

The something greater than yourself is something paralell to your life that you could never really alter. I.E. you love your daughter so much it softens your hardened ego enough to gain a moment of clarity that in turn shows you how hopeless you really are.

Should addicts be held accountable? Well yes and no. Taking the drugs is a choice, yes, and one will always be responsible for that. Playing devils advocate though, until you're in their shoes, you have no idea how hardcore your life becomes. Everything around you passes you by and youre powerless to stop it until the day comes where you've successfully lost it all. The desperate addict isn't even human because in his search for the perfect he has lost his humanity.

Be aware though 12 steps is a behavior modification system and addiction is largely a symptom, and occurs in the wake of mental health issues.You will never become sober if your sober life is misery, will you?

 

[LopLover]

I've reached a strange point in my recovery. After about 3 years of involvement (the first two were on-and off, the last was pretty much on) I think I may have reached the end of my relationship with NA, at least for now.

No big, final event happened. I've had a few bad experiences over the years, and these made me reconsider whether I wanted to stay. But this time it's just a feeling that I don't want to associate with people that way for now.

For about a month, when I go to meetings I just don't feel what I used to feel there any more. All the unpleasant aspects (the hand-wringing, fearfulness and arguments from convenience) seem very large, while the things I like (the quiet meditation at the start and end of the meetings, the socializing before and after, the moral support between meetings) seem to have receded. It's not awful--just not my thing.

Of course I know that my NA friends would tell me that this "my disease talking." And honestly that's a big part of my turnoff. When I wrote earlier about 'arguments from convenience' this is a great example. I never liked it when people used 'denial' as a way to shut down any point they disagreed with. I never liked it when someone's 'disease' was brought up as the reason they balked at a particular suggestion or demand. This pushes me away all the more.

I'm kind of sad about this. NA was really important in my early recovery. And honestly, I'm still pretty early on. So I wish I could rely on NA now. But I think I've determined to at least take a break for a while. I really hope that I'll change my mind and I'll find a way to come back...maybe under some different set of goals and expectations.

Has anyone else had a feeling like this?

It sounds like part of you wants to move on and do other things while another part of you knows it would grieve the loss of whatever NA has done for you. Yes, I have reached that place in a 12-Step program, and for me--not necessarily for you--it's a dangerous place to be, because when I stop going to meetings, it's because I'm setting myself up to relapse. That's just me, though. Another thing I do is distance myself from my sober friends that I spend time with outside of meetings, if I'm setting up a relapse. Usually by that point, I've already made plans for where I'm going to get some dope, how I'm going to pay for it, etc.

You don't sound like that's the place you're in, though. It almost sounds like you're grieving the loss of your early recovery, and that makes perfect sense. When I first got clean (the first time--25 or so years ago) there was a pretty big group of us who had gotten clean about the same time who hung out together, got in and out of relationships with each other, went to meetings and then went and hung out at Denny's like till dawn. Most of us didn't have jobs yet and weren't doing anything constructive except not using and going to meetings. Eventually those who stayed clean got jobs and didn't hang out any more, others relapsed and went back to the streets, and there just wasn't that camaraderie that had been there before. It was really sad losing that close friendship we had with one another, and I definitely grieved it.

Eventually most of us went back to slamming dope and a lot of my friends overdosed accidentally or killed themselves, until there was just a couple of us left. I couldn't stop using again, and wound up leaving town to go to treatment at a mental hospital and then moved back to the town I was from. It was all very sad, and I miss those friends so much. I can't let people get that close to me anymore--I don't want to risk them dying on me, or me dying on them. I don't use now, but have health problems that make that a strong possibility.

Sorry I got sidetracked on that trip down memory lane, but it sounds like your situation might be similar. When you first get into recovery, life can be so simple. You aren't using and spending all your money, you usually don't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of, but it doesn't matter. Recovery itself can be enough for a while. Then, life intrudes--you have to get a job or go to school or do something, and you get busy. You look back at the simple time and miss it. I'd advise doing whatever your heart tells you to do, but to pay attention closely to what's going on inside, and if you start craving, go to a meeting or two and talk about it. I hope that you find the peace that you're looking for, and that it all works out. ~Namaste~

 

[LopLover]

To answer a couple of questions that have been asked: the form of Buddhism my friend practices is a form of Zen Buddhism. I've studied some Tibetan Buddhism and read pretty much everything the Dalai Lama has written--I think he truly is a bodhisattva--an enlightened being, but I know little of the forms of Zen. The monastery he learned at is in Wallowa, Oregon, not far from where we're at. If it's OK, I'll post or PM you the website--I got into trouble once for advertising! My heritage is 4th Gen Irish; I have no background in eastern religions, other than I like their teachings better than Western ones. One thing that's different is that in this form, monks can be male or female. They are equal and pretty much the same. The leader of the monastery he belongs to or learned at--not sure of the terminology here--is a woman monk who trained in Japan, so this is a Japanese form of the religion. I know that Tibetan Buddhism only trains men to be monks and women are nuns and are separated and apparently are somewhat second-class. I'm not really looking to become a Buddhist any more than I want to be a Christian or a Hindu. I just want to take what they have to offer, and they are the experts on meditation. So I'm pretty excited. I've practiced meditation with online teachers for a long time, but it just isn't the same. More info later...

 

[Scrofula]

Be aware though 12 steps is a behavior modification system and addiction is largely a symptom, and occurs in the wake of mental health issues.You will never become sober if your sober life is misery, will you?

Thank you, well said, the problem in one single multi-clause sentence. You mentioned "walk a mile in the addict's shoes" forgetting that I have walked a few, and still take short strolls now and then. So I've spent 79 days in rehab (like, locked up on site, all polydrug twelve-step-oriented) all for booze, none of them my idea.

And the first 28 day stint, as my life was exploding around me, I heard a lot about how I was powerless over this drug, how I had a disease, when I got out I SHOULD be selfish and make my recovery about me; got to get up in front of a hundred people more than once to relive the lowest points (which weren't even close to what I'd get to) of my drinking career, trying to make it entertaining, but with a "lesson". Told to find my higher power that doesn't have to be Jehova God but still really has to be "God" and give it my will and reason. After all, my best thinking got me there.

Except it didn't, my fucking family got me there. And not once did someone just say, "hey, your girl of ten years is slowly leaving you, this girl you were gonna marry once school is over. And hey, this school thing you've invested six horrendous years of clinging by your finger nails, it's looking like you might still not pull it off. You just spent eight days in the hospital with organ failure and it's taking over a month to recover still. Have you considered your life is quite difficult right now, and you are choosing poor methods to cope?"

Not once did someone even fucking ask, "how're things going? Everything alright with you and Mona?" Nope, it's the drug. And your disease. Don't think about it, that's for your higher power.

The recovery industry is a felonious circle-jerk of fraud*.


(Hmm. Last one was like four years ago, and I seem to still have some bitterness lingering.)

*To those of you who work in the industry, I said industry, not individuals. You're cool. Just not your bosses.

 

[Pickledlemons]

The whole idea of the 12 step program doesnt sit well with me. I am a very logical, scientific person, so I see no evidence of any high power of any kind. Whether thats the abrahamic god or the almighty ceiling fan, its an illusion. I have inquired about alternatives in my area. They do exist... but I have yet to actually bring myself in.

 

[Scrofula]

I'm pretty sure I've worshiped the almighty ceiling fan before. Sometimes on "Low" it's the only thing not spinning in this fucked up world.

 

[Tubbs]

Lol I'm pretty sure I worshipped a shiny spoon for a couple hours once. And of course the little lighter that could(lasted me all night until the head shop opened to get more butane.

Could those be my higher powers?

 

[Scrofula]

That little lighter all out of butane that lasted all night? It's like a junkie's Hannukah.

 

[Tubbs]

It was very low lol, that's what I was thinking though. I kept that thing forever, then my buddy broke it, glad I wasn't tweaked, probably would've helped him meet his higher power.

That was one of my jokes though, friend asked me if I'd ever sell my soul, told him yeah for a lighter that never runs out.

 

[herbavore]

That little lighter all out of butane that lasted all night? It's like a junkie's Hannukah.

^LOL.

Maybe it's because I didn't have an addiction, I had my son's addiction which lived in me as my own insanity, when I sought the help of Al-anon; but it never felt any different than when I sought help from anything else (Buddhism, say)--I just took the parts that helped me and ignored the rest. I felt sorry for the 12-step dogma nazis there, not controlled by them. The language irritated me sometimes, and I certainly had a complete disagreement with the whole "reaching bottom" concept but again, I took what I needed, offered my own contradictory thoughts when the opportunity presented itself and left when I had absorbed what I was beneficial to me.

 

[deficiT]

I'd love to hear what current BLers think of the 12 steps so I'm gonna try to revive this thread. Has anyone gotten sober for an extended period in one of the 12 step fellowships like AA or NA?

It seems like there's mostly more of a negative impression of 12 step fellowships on here and I'm interested to see if anyone has had success with them.

I used to feel this way, but now that I'm actually open to getting completely sober, actually working the steps and giving the program a chance I feel much more optimistic about it.

It really did take me having the spiritual awakening in a moment of clarity that is so often described in the literature for me to really be open to giving it a chance.

But now I've got a sponsor again and I'm planning on doing an inventory and all that. AA has really helped me in being able to just exist in sobriety, to sit with my discomfort and work through it personally.

What has your experience been?