New (and less new) RCs - Alphabet Soup

[kingme]

It isn't popular at all, alone it can be quite enjoyable - nowhere near the level of most stims/empathogens and if you try to push it too far you'll only receive the worst bruxism and hyperthermia of your life. I've used it combos twice and have learned the hard way what a stupid idea it was. I think Thursday was my last dance with it.

so.. where would you rank it against other stims and empathogens? if its any less interesting than 2fa than im not interested at all

 

[Sprout]

so.. where would you rank it against other stims and empathogens? if its any less interesting than 2fa than im not interested at all

Imagine a barely threshold dose of Methylone, but with the side effects and comedown of 200mg of MDMA.

 

[been head]

I got a new batch of 4-FA today which seems to be a lot better than the last one. This stuff is pure white and the last was a slight tan colour. It's just as nasty to snort though. Value for money I would say 4-FA has to be one of the best things out there at the moment.

 

[Shambles]

Flutazolam and Flutoprazepam, two new benzos being sold in Sweeden.

Would anyone else like to see them widely available in the EU?

Being benzos I have no doubt they'd be popular in the UK. Assuming they're not of the guaranteed carcrash variety. I still sense big problems whenever the law closes the loophole allowing RC benzos to slip under the radar. They've been around long enough for them to be firmly on governmental agendas by now. Thankfully there don't seem to be tabloid headlines and campaigns demanding we ban this sick filth. That day will come though and there's gonna be a shitstorm given the severity of benzo w/d

 

[black53]

They'd be popular with me too (assuming normal pricing and not being crap). For the second part... perhaps the government knows this and is leaving them legal on purpose. You ban them, and suddenly many otherwise normal people are practically driven crazy by the WDs.... not really something to do when you're trying to picture an addict as someone who can't do anything other than get high. And as long as they aren't banned EU wide getting them would not be that hard (not sure about UK customs, but ours don't touch any mail from the EU, even high risk countries like The Netherlands.

 

[Sprout]

They'd be popular with me too (assuming normal pricing and not being crap). For the second part... perhaps the government knows this and is leaving them legal on purpose. You ban them, and suddenly many otherwise normal people are practically driven crazy by the WDs.... not really something to do when you're trying to picture an addict as someone who can't do anything other than get high. And as long as they aren't banned EU wide getting them would not be that hard (not sure about UK customs, but ours don't touch any mail from the EU, even high risk countries like The Netherlands.

Well Tramadol shall be a controlled Class C with no importation loophole so I can't see it being out of nicety.

 

[Shambles]

A lotta people don't like to order from overseas even though it is relatively safe to do so. Only real risk is having it seized (I've never heard of anyone having their seized but it is a possibility). In that case you lose your Goodies and probably the money they cost you (although some vendors will replace an order free of charge at least once).

I really can't see our government thinking it through like that. What you say does make some sense in terms of averting one helluva mess - the loss in productivity from people needing to take weeks off work might be enough to make a Tory government think twice about banning 'em, mind.

 

[black53]

>Well Tramadol shall be a controlled Class C with no importation loophole so I can't see it being out of nicety.
Is Tramadol abuse a big problem too? Or just a few people. More then nicety I was thinking about it being against the governments wishes to make drugs illegal.

A lotta people don't like to order from overseas even though it is relatively safe to do so. Only real risk is having it seized (I've never heard of anyone having their seized but it is a possibility). In that case you lose your Goodies and probably the money they cost you (although some vendors will replace an order free of charge at least once).

You're lucky with all your domestic rc vendors (even if they aren't allowed to sell some of the best stuff)). There's no here (hm possible busies idea if it worked out legally), so I really have no choice but to order from other countries. As long as it's an EU country you're fine (except waiting for the postman). Packages from outside the EU are regularly checked, illegal stuff seized and the police may want to ask you a few questions. But unless you ordered like 100kg of coke it ends with the few questions, too hard to prove you ordered it.

I really can't see our government thinking it through like that. What you say does make some sense in terms of averting one helluva mess - the loss in productivity from people needing to take weeks off work might be enough to make a Tory government think twice about banning 'em, mind.

I know nothing of UK politics so you're certainly more right

 

[Shambles]

Tory = right wing party currently in power. I presume right wing parties are more or less the same the world over.

There was a golden age of UK vendors but the government soon caught up and started banning anything that made the headlines. Annoyingly usually based either on a single case (only cases that make the headlines are when it's somebody photogenic and ideally a bit posh - the people that matter unlike the rest of us scum) and/or based on complete misinformation (the spate of "mephedrone deaths" being an obvious example - there were no confirmed mephedrone deaths, but there were rather a lot of methadone deaths which got reported as mephedrone deaths - gotta love journo fact-checking 8)). They're pretty bad now cos anything decent has been banned more or less. They do at least innovate unlike the vast majority of other vendors worldwide. Admittedly they rarely manage to turn out anything anybody would wish to try a second time but at least they're making the effort instead of just waiting to pick up bestsellers as soon as they're banned here.

 

[Sprout]

If anything the bans are making the whole thing MORE dangerous. Drugs are not going to disappear due to a ban: either new drugs will be synthed or people will turn to other sources. Draconian laws do not work - just look at the U.S.

 

[black53]

Tory = right wing party currently in power. I presume right wing parties are more or less the same the world over.

There was a golden age of UK vendors but the government soon caught up and started banning anything that made the headlines. Annoyingly usually based either on a single case (only cases that make the headlines are when it's somebody photogenic and ideally a bit posh - the people that matter unlike the rest of us scum) and/or based on complete misinformation (the spate of "mephedrone deaths" being an obvious example - there were no confirmed mephedrone deaths, but there were rather a lot of methadone deaths which got reported as mephedrone deaths - gotta love journo fact-checking 8)). They're pretty bad now cos anything decent has been banned more or less. They do at least innovate unlike the vast majority of other vendors worldwide. Admittedly they rarely manage to turn out anything anybody would wish to try a second time but at least they're making the effort instead of just waiting to pick up bestsellers as soon as they're banned here.

I'd go even further and say that politicians all over the world are more or less the same - crooks.

The golden age was also the time when the benzofurans and mxe appeared? And a certain vendor sold other pcp analogues to his advanced customers?

Well you still have some decent stuff - etizolam, flubromazepam, eph (hey, I like it), amt, lsz, al-lad (well have is a bit of a stretch here), mdai (again bit of a stretch), ...
The fly compounds (2c-b-fly and such) would also be legal right? I asked a vendor about it and supposedly the synth is not the simplest. And I believe bk versions of all the 2cs are ready for release.

I wonder what will replace the nbxx stuff and 5 and 6 eapb when the ban takes effect.... 2c flys? bk 2cs? more lysergamides? sulfur analogues of mdxx and the apbs?
I really hope it gives us some exciting stuff.

If anything the bans are making the whole thing MORE dangerous. Drugs are not going to disappear due to a ban: either new drugs will be synthed or people will turn to other sources. Draconian laws do not work - just look at the U.S.

I'm pretty sure the people here are already aware how legalizing drugs would result in less crime and disease/deaths.
It's the people that need to be convinced. Idk how it is in the UK but here younger people are generally much more open to the idea of legal drugs,

So maybe when we're old we'll be able to buy some 5 and 6 apb (or whichever you like) at a pharmacy and talk about the good old times.

 

[Sprout]

If people could walk into a pharmacy and legally buy an enantriometrically pure sample of their drug of choice, with accompanying HR advice, the crime rate, at least for burglary/cash theft, would drop massively.
There is a Northern European country that legalised Diamorphine and saw their crime rate nose-dive. Too hammered to look for info/source though

 

[black53]

This is exactly what I'm advocating... people my age are mostly for, older ones against. And use a part of the money from the sale for the treatment of problems caused by said drug, research on it's effects, ....

 

[Shambles]

If anything the bans are making the whole thing MORE dangerous. Drugs are not going to disappear due to a ban: either new drugs will be synthed or people will turn to other sources. Draconian laws do not work - just look at the U.S.

I couldn't agree more. Each time one lot are banned they just switch to the next analogue down the list of possibilities which tends to mean they get iffier and iffier and farther and farther away from anything remotely close to summat with even the slightest history of human usage

I'd go even further and say that politicians all over the world are more or less the same - crooks.

The golden age was also the time when the benzofurans and mxe appeared? And a certain vendor sold other pcp analogues to his advanced customers?

Well you still have some decent stuff - etizolam, flubromazepam, eph (hey, I like it), amt, lsz, al-lad (well have is a bit of a stretch here), mdai (again bit of a stretch), ...
The fly compounds (2c-b-fly and such) would also be legal right? I asked a vendor about it and supposedly the synth is not the simplest. And I believe bk versions of all the 2cs are ready for release.

I wonder what will replace the nbxx stuff and 5 and 6 eapb when the ban takes effect.... 2c flys? bk 2cs? more lysergamides? sulfur analogues of mdxx and the apbs?
I really hope it gives us some exciting stuff.



I'm pretty sure the people here are already aware how legalizing drugs would result in less crime and disease/deaths.
It's the people that need to be convinced. Idk how it is in the UK but here younger people are generally much more open to the idea of legal drugs,

So maybe when we're old we'll be able to buy some 5 and 6 apb (or whichever you like) at a pharmacy and talk about the good old times.

I agree with pretty much all of that. Although I'm not exactly keen to be trying sulphur compounds. Apparently not the most appealing compounds to be produced via that route. And they'd fukkin stink.

It's true that technically there are legal possibilities but the more interesting ones tend to be tricky synths and/or near-guaranteed to be banned in a heartbeat (bk-fly compounds and the like - assuming they are legal here which I do believe they would be). I think the best chance of having actually good drugs stay legal is to go the AL-LAD/LSZ route and keep batches very limited with gaps between releases. It's a shame that to keep a thing legal it seems you have to either make shitty drugs or make them somewhat exclusive. Rather defeats the point of legality. Those two didn't raise an eyebrow when they were about as far as I can tell which is promising. And nice that LSZ has been picked up by EU vendors. AL-LAD would be a bonus but that one did seem to be especially awkward to synth without involving LSD itself.

I very much agree on the buying from licensed premises thing. Have been saying as much for years. Portugal is the country where heroin use halved when they decriminalised it. It makes perfect sense too - it's a bit of a niche drug anyway, not many people actively enjoy being addicted to stuff. I could quite believe people would take the opportunity to have a bit of novelty use then scuttle for detox treatment at the earliest opportunity for the most part. Figures from countries that have tried loosening laws in that area tend to reap the rewards whilst addiction rates spiral in the more Draconian countries. You'd think governments would latch on to actual facts, but are mostly too scared to have to admit to getting it wrong for so many years, I suspect

Legalisation of some form is inevitable, I'd say. Gonna take a while but there really is no other option unless one ascribes to the theory that governments actively like having a drug addicted portion of the population to keep prison levels at a suitably profit-forming level, or just as a handy scapegoat for any number of societal ills. Yes, that is a reasonably widespread theory, but somewhat tinfoil for sure. Does fit with the facts a damn site better than the governments trying to keep their populations safe from "the scourge of drugs" though.

 

[black53]

If they just stank I'd be fine with that (does MPA stink?). Increased toxicity or side effects are a different thing however. The reason why I suggested sulfur is it's next to oxygen on the periodic table so it may well produce compounds with similar effects (like 2c-b, 2c-c, 2c-i). It's all speculation however until someone tests them. There surely exist other emphatogens that we haven't discovered yet, but I find it unlikely rc vendors will be the ones to discover them. Hence my suggestion of the sulfur analogues which are a much simpler change to an existing molecule.

The 2c-x-flys are legal but according to a vendor I talked to not being pursued atm + have a difficult synth. bk-2c-c and others were promised for end of 2013... I guess they either suck or the vendors plan to release them slowly to avoid blanket bans. But all of them are promising something for after then ban, so there must be something. Perhaps we're thinking to exotic and the answers are simpler. Or more complex and we'll get peptide based drugs (well we'll get them eventually but I doubt it'll happen soon).

There is one good thing from the upcoming ban (btw is anything else getting banned?) - anyone who likes them will be able to stock up on 5&6 eapb and 25x-nbxx for very cheap. At least if last years bans of the apb/mapbs are any indication.

Heroin use is a good example for another reason too. Pharm grade would be consistent in strength..... street grade... isn't.

And the whole argument everyone would be high all the time if drugs were legal.... just lol... then all of us would be alcoholics.

 

[Sprout]

Since the APB's were banned it seems RC stimulants have lost popularity, especially using 5-EAPB as an example. RC benzo's are becoming very prominent, however, so I suspect they may be next on the synth list.
Also, switching Oxygen for Sulphur in most organic compounds would be a completely radical alteration, their closeness on the Periodic Table has zero effect when compared to the change in polarity, steric hindrance and membrane permeability.

 

[black53]

Were the apbs really used as stimulants? Are they not more mda/mdma/methylone alternatives? At least that's how I've always used them (and damn if they aren't the best drug of this sort, I'd take 75mg each 5 and 6 apb over mdma every time). Of course we could just be using a different definition of stimulant, mine being more narrow (basically 4-fa being right at the border of stimulant and entheogen) and your's wider.

To be fair for 5-eapb to be popular it would need to be good first I'm sure if you came out with something identical in effect to the other apbs it be insanely popular (well tell me if/when you do, I'll buy some). And the benzos out now are quite good. So I'm really not sure do we get good rcs of the popular classes because development is focused that way or do we every few years find some insanely good rc which then makes it's class popular.

Yes, I've heard the arguments against the switch, the ones you mentioned + synth problems, ... However lets take MDA and it's two oxygens, replace one with sulfur. You get the problems you mentioned at one part and not the other. What does this do to the effects? We know from the aps that one oxygen is enough. But that's also a flawed comparison since the other one is replaced by carbon. Frankly I don't think SAR models are as of today advanced enough to make a good prediction on what it would do. So until someone forks out the cash for a synth it's all speculation.

What is your opinion on peptide based drugs?

 

[Shambles]

Since the APB's were banned it seems RC stimulants have lost popularity, especially using 5-EAPB as an example. RC benzo's are becoming very prominent, however, so I suspect they may be next on the synth list.
Also, switching Oxygen for Sulphur in most organic compounds would be a completely radical alteration, their closeness on the Periodic Table has zero effect when compared to the change in polarity, steric hindrance and membrane permeability.

More or less what I've read in ADD (or whatever it's called these days). General consensus amongst chemistry bods is that sulphur is a big no-no.

The 2c-x-flys are legal but according to a vendor I talked to not being pursued atm + have a difficult synth. bk-2c-c and others were promised for end of 2013... I guess they either suck or the vendors plan to release them slowly to avoid blanket bans.

bk-2C-B got such mediocre (at best) reception I can quite imagine it putting vendors off releasing any more too soon afterwards. Seems they totally screwed the synth but released it anyway which is just plain stoopid. Stuff did precisely nothing for me even at 500mg

Seems like they could be promising if they get the synth sorted but releasing stuff so caustic you need to acidify your stomach to have any chance of it working at all is just ridiculous. Especially without informing anyone of this fact. One of the many reasons I object to the stupid loopholes that mean you have to pretend they're not for human consumption to get away with selling at all. Although, presumably, it wouldn't be too hard to come up with some chemistry-based bullshit that let people know they needed to be drinking a fuckload of grapefruit juice or the like to avoid gippy tum and have some chance of getting an effect out of the stuff. Unfortunately I'd already rinsed my sample before finding out that lil nugget and don't fancy re-ordering until/unless they get their synth sorted.

(basically 4-fa being right at the border of stimulant and entheogen)

'Entheogens' are natural drugs - mushroom, cacti, Salvia and so forth - usually with an assumption of traditional, ritual use. You would be meaning 'entactogens' or 'empathogens' (same meaning, different word - drugs that induce empathy as a primary effect).

 

[black53]

>More or less what I've read in ADD (or whatever it's called these days). General consensus amongst chemistry bods is that sulphur is a big no-no.
Been told the same there, but idk, I'd still like to see it made at least once. At least we would know for sure. But I understand the vendors not wanting pay for the synth of potential crap. Or maybe we'll get fast hardware and good algorithms and simulate it's behaviour on a pc

I'm with you on the bk-2c-b. Tried it twice, same vendor (one generally known for quality) same appearance, taste, everything, so I'm guessing same batch. First time it worked great. Not my favorite but good psy with little side effects. Second time me and a few friends took it with no effect except that one of my friends after coming home had slight visuals + paranoid thoughts the entire night. Now he doesn't ever want to touch any psy, including stuff he liked before. And to make it worse, I had benzos with me in case of these kind of problems, but since we were out for like 10h and nothing had yet happened, I kept them in my pocket. Had I know I'd given him one or two.

Maybe we'll get lucky and the other bk-2c-x are better.

>Entheogens' are natural drugs - mushroom, cacti, Salvia and so forth - usually with an assumption of traditional, ritual use. You would be meaning 'entactogens' or 'empathogens' (same meaning, different word - drugs that induce empathy as a primary effect).
Sorry, I don't think our language has so many words for drug classes (or nobody uses them), so I sometimes mix up the English translations.

What I meant was that stimulants for me are things like speed, meth, ritalin, eph, 2-fa, 2-fma, mpa, ... While the apbs, mapbs, apdbs, mdxx are emphatogens. And 4-fa is right at the border between these classes.


Anyway, I think you (as in anyone in this conversation) missed two questions:
-5 an 6 eapb + 25x-nbxx are the only things getting banned on the 10th? Or is there more?
-what's your take on peptide based drugs?

 

[Shambles]

Sorry, I don't think our language has so many words for drug classes (or nobody uses them), so I sometimes mix up the English translations.

I always feel a bit mean correcting folk who speak English as a second language - it's not like I managed to retain any languages from school 8) - but always nice to expand vocabulary.

Anyway, I think you (as in anyone in this conversation) missed two questions:
-5 an 6 eapb + 25x-nbxx are the only things getting banned on the 10th? Or is there more?
-what's your take on peptide based drugs?

I actually have no idea what's getting banned. I don't really pay much attention cos it's not like availability suddenly disappears just cos something gets banned.

As for peptide drugs, I think you mistake me for somebody who knows things

I have no idea but expanding horizons and frontiers is a Good Thing so bring on the peptides. Or don't if they're shite. Completely novel drugs would be a fascinating thing though. They're all basically variations on a rather limited number of themes as it is. Am a bit of a stamp collector drugwise, but have gotten kinda bored of just trying different chems cos they happen to be a minor variation on a common theme. It's true that they all have a distinct flavour of their own but there are precious few which really stand out as being different enough from their relatives to be worth going back to in future.