12 step discussion thread Voice your opinions here!

[w01fg4ng]

I don't have a problem with people recovering through AA/NA, but what exactly is it about the fellowship that makes its attendees have problems with people recovering without it?

I think it's not the program, but just people in general. It's a slippery slope when you are a recovering addict and you "discover" a way to recover. I know it's easy for me to replace one addiction for another, however I'm usually pretty aware of it. In the case of AA/NA it's not my "go to" by any means, but I have seen some people there who seem to not look at ANYTHING else for recovery. The way I look at those people are the way I look at myself. They just found something to replace an addiction. There's nothing mysterious about that really imo.

 

[thedawn]

agreed.(above poster).

 

[nuttynutskin]

This woman knows her shit...

 

[caseface99]

I've never been to AA.

I think this is all you needed to say in this thread.

Agreed. 8)


____


@nutty - We obviously have different viewpoints on this and we aren't going to find common ground. Both of our key arguments are based on our opinions, and quite frankly your opinion holds no weight with me after the above quoted comment.

I hope you continue to do well in your own recovery.

 

[nuttynutskin]

@nutty - We obviously have different viewpoints on this and we aren't going to find common ground. Both of our key arguments are based on our opinions, and quite frankly your opinion holds no weight with me after the above quoted comment.

I hope you continue to do well in your own recovery.

You're being ridiculous. Why would I go to AA if I didn't believe in it? What you and the other poster are doing is no different than telling an Atheist that they know nothing about Christianity or religion since they've never been to church. I brought up plenty of valid points why AA is a flawed program but you did nothing to really address any of them and just reacted emotionally. I don't give two shits about changing your mind, I just wanted to bring some facts to the table for others who might be considering AA as a treatment option so that they could decide for themselves if it's the right program. The only people that seemed to have a problem with that are the two people in this thread that obviously have an AAgenda.

Oh and I'm not currently seeking any recovery, maybe your assumptions about me will be better next time.

 

[thedawn]

seems to me like case face thinks his comments are most valid.

nutty brought up a lot of good points.

when case face says "i hope you continue to do well in your own recover"
i call bullshit.he doesn't mean it.
he saves face.

 

[herbavore]

... and it's a good skill to learn how to separate the value from the bullshit in anything in life.

If I could just step in and speak to this good point that RL has made:
I am a secular person--actually anti-religious if pressed--and yet I have no problem taking the truly wise aspects of religions and incorporating them into my own world view. For instance the golden rule from Christianity, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is probably the most succinct prescription for good relationships, an end to capitalism as we know it and world peace! You don't have to buy into the whole ugly religion to see the value in that wisdom. Likewise, Buddhism has given me a philosophy that really deepens my resilience to life's hardships as well as my experience of joy. But do I have to believe in all the silly prescriptions for behavior (like praying on the 49th day after a loved one's death to ensure something in their supposed afterlife)? No, I do not. I have my own mind. I can use it to decide for myself what is useful to me and what is not, what is true for me. The old saying, "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" comes to mind. For me, there is a lot of wisdom in the twelve steps, both for addiction and beyond. I never had a too much of a problem with the higher power but that is probably because I think in metaphorical terms naturally; plus as a non-believer in deities I am used to being in the minority.

As far as the dogmatism that exists in AA/NA--it exists everywhere! The argument about whether it is a self-righteous cult or whether it is simply groups of people getting together to try to integrate strategies for a healthier life misses the point IMO. A group is made up of individuals. Some are loud and domineering and some are quiet and self-effacing and everything in between. Like anywhere else in life, you look for the people that resonate with you and take the others as they come, letting their opinions just be their opinions. If a particular group is super religious and there is no room for any other perception of life, form another group. The idea that the support of a larger group is vital is true--it just may not be this group.

The bottom line for me is that taking a black and white polarized view of anything robs you of your ability to access what could be useful to you, reject what isn't and be in control of your own choices. It is all free choice (except when the courts are dictating and as RL said, that is for another thread).

At 60, I have seen many of my friends and family members deal with addiction over their lifetimes. Most have used AA/NA in the beginning and then moved on. Some have made AA a lifelong practice. Only two out of quite a few of those people are actually believers in a god. What I admire about all of these people in my life is that they made a commitment to developing strategies that work for them and they continually come back to those, whatever they are. It's not about quitting a drug. It's about understanding yourself and your place in time and space. It's about making life better for everyone starting with yourself.

May everyone feel free to find peace for themselves using their own hearts and minds and their connections to one another.

 

[sarcophagus.heels]

AA/NA isn't for me, but I don't have a problem with another person recovering through it. It has a lot of success stories. The thing I've noticed, though, is that the majority of AA/NA loyals (not including people here, just from the meetings I've attended) are so quick to tell you that it is necessary to recover, that you "cannot do it alone" or "will die if you don't go to meetings." I don't have a problem with people recovering through AA/NA, but what exactly is it about the fellowship that makes its attendees have problems with people recovering without it? This self-righteousness is what drives me insane. Meetings have lots of wisdom and acceptance/compassion/love, and it's a good skill to learn how to separate the value from the bullshit in anything in life. Unfortunately, though, I have extremely high standards for myself and my life these days, which include no bullshit at all.

I also have a huge issue with the court systems mandating AA/NA, but that's another thread.

That's exactly how I feel about it. If someone recovers through the 12 steps, good on them for improving their life. But like you said, a large percentage of the AA/NA regulars tell you that if you stop going to meetings, you'll end up dead or in rehab. I guess they need to feel that way to validate their own commitment to AA, but it's just not a helpful attitude. AA/NA isn't a good fit for me at all. There's a lot of good to be found in those meetings, but the cognitive dissonance caused by all of the bullshit intertwined with the good ends up rendering the whole thing useless for me. I'd rather not be jumping through mental hoops trying to create forced rationalizations for how my personal philosophy could make sense within the framework of the 12 steps.

 

[JessFR]

I haven't read the whole thread but I'll throw my thoughts in on this.

I haven't actually been to AA, but I have been to NA plenty of times and from what I hear it's fairly similar.

First of all... NA... and most likely AA too given that they follow the same basic ideas... are not a cult. That's not to say they work for everyone. But 12 step programs just don't meet the criteria for a cult. I can see why some might say it, but it lacks some of the primary hallmarks of a cult. Foremost being that far from there being a central controlling authority in NA/AA, there are countless groups that are to a large degree autonomous. Including ones with different interpretations on the ideals of AA and NA. It also, to me anyway, has never encourage me to ditch anyone but other active users in my life. Both of these are hallmark characteristics of nearly all cults, and I think it does a disservice to people who have actually been members or had family members in a cult to label 12 step groups a cult.

Second, I get why it's hard for atheists and agnostics in 12 step groups... I can't deny that for all the claims of "your higher power can be anything", in practice it works a lot better (as in feeling better for having gone) if you actually do believe in a spiritual higher power. I also can't claim that NA or AA for that matter in fact have been very successful... because truthfully I don't know for sure. I also can't deny that many of the more successful in NA I saw could as easily have been described as addicted to NA instead of their drug.

But third and lastly, just as I don't agree with the AA/NA claim that it can't be done without the 12 steps, there seem to be many who just as blindly argue that no benefit can be seen from 12 step programs at all.

Ultimately, I am far from a model success story of 12 steps, I haven't been to a meeting in about a year. But it did help me. It helped me just in knowing that there were meetings all over the city every day where I could go, in person, unscheduled, and be with other people who've screwed up their life with drugs and feel a bit less alone. Having a sponsor helped me feel like there was someone who's actually lived what I was going through instead of read about it in textbooks. It helped me if nothing else in giving me a way to focus my energies for a little while that wasn't drugs.

Technically I'm apart of the 97% failure rate that is NA.... but I would still argue it's not a bad program. Sometimes misguided sure, and potentially alienating to the less spiritually inclined. But far from an evil cult the other side of the extreme makes it out to be.

 

[caseface99]

You're being ridiculous. Why would I go to AA if I didn't believe in it? What you and the other poster are doing is no different than telling an Atheist that they know nothing about Christianity or religion since they've never been to church.

If said atheist doesn't know anything about religion besides the common hate mongering and satirical documentaries/books and whatnot, then that atheist does in fact know nothing about religion/christianity...

I brought up plenty of valid points why AA is a flawed program but you did nothing to really address any of them and just reacted emotionally.

Haha reacted emotionally? Far from it... I'm simply willing to admit that we have differing opinions and trying to argue our points any further is a waste of time.

I don't give two shits about changing your mind, I just wanted to bring some facts to the table for others who might be considering AA as a treatment option so that they could decide for themselves if it's the right program. The only people that seemed to have a problem with that are the two people in this thread that obviously have an AAgenda.

Facts =/= Opinions. It's pretty clear from all of your posts that you aren't trying to "present the facts and let people make their own decisions", you are trying to convince people that AA is a a horrible thing in its' entirety and not worth even considering because YOU don't agree with it. You specifically say it's "flawed to it's very core and therefore not a single thing from it could ever be valuable to anybody except a weak minded moron". And not even because you had a bad experience, you have no experience period. I don't have an agenda besides defending my own opinions. You claim that what I do "isn't even AA" but then you claim I have an "AAgenda" - whose contradicting themselves, now?

Oh and I'm not currently seeking any recovery, maybe your assumptions about me will be better next time.

Considering this is a recovery thread in a recovery sub-forum with the topic of AA, discussion originally started with someones personal experience (of which you have none), it wasn't too far off for me to assume. Now that I know you aren't even in recovery, much less have any experience with the topic at hand I really am finished having this discussion. By the way, you also avoided all of my best points and rebutted the others with opinions, not facts. I tried to address everything you said but your rebuttal to most of my stuff was opinions like "thats not even AA" when you don't even know... There is nothing left to debate here it's just a moot point.

seems to me like case face thinks his comments are most valid.

nutty brought up a lot of good points.

when case face says "i hope you continue to do well in your own recover"
i call bullshit.he doesn't mean it.
he saves face.

Considering in multiple posts I admitted that what he was saying for SOME people in AA - that's not me remotely saying "I'm right your wrong", quite the opposite actually. I don't want anyone to take my word for anything, to be quite honest - I want people to investigate for themselves, which is the point - I'm trying to show people that the opinion of one person who has never even been to AA isn't the standard for everyone.

The second part of your post isn't even worth replying to, really, since it is nothing but a personal attack on somebody you don't even know. If you had been around here for a while and seen any of my posts over the last year you would know I was actually being pretty genuine.

 

[nuttynutskin]

If said atheist doesn't know anything about religion besides the common hate mongering and satirical documentaries/books and whatnot, then that atheist does in fact know nothing about religion/christianity...

Just because you disagree with something doesn't mean you don't know anything about it.

Facts =/= Opinions. It's pretty clear from all of your posts that you aren't trying to "present the facts and let people make their own decisions", you are trying to convince people that AA is a a horrible thing in its' entirety and not worth even considering because YOU don't agree with it. You specifically say it's "flawed to it's very core and therefore not a single thing from it could ever be valuable to anybody except a weak minded moron". And not even because you had a bad experience, you have no experience period.

Yes it is my opinion that AA is a flawed program to the core. My OPINION. My OPINION. But people are free to do what they want. I think it's only fair that they know the pros and cons tho especially if they just blindly think AA is the right choice for recovery.

I don't have an agenda besides defending my own opinions. You claim that what I do "isn't even AA" but then you claim I have an "AAgenda" - whose contradicting themselves, now?

I was talking about both you and the other person. Would it have been better if I said your bastardized version of AA? Can you say projection?

Considering this is a recovery thread in a recovery sub-forum with the topic of AA, discussion originally started with someones personal experience (of which you have none), it wasn't too far off for me to assume. Now that I know you aren't even in recovery, much less have any experience with the topic at hand I really am finished having this discussion.

The original post by the OP was about how AA wasn't working for him. I more or less just wanted to let him know that he's not the only one. You're the one that originally called me out even tho there were countless other posters saying how they don't like AA either. Don't call me out on something if you don't want a response from me, or be able to defend yourself against valid points without twisting things around.

By the way, you also avoided all of my best points and rebutted the others with opinions, not facts. I tried to address everything you said but your rebuttal to most of my stuff was opinions like "thats not even AA" when you don't even know... There is nothing left to debate here it's just a moot point.

Lol... I stated plenty of facts and some opinions based on facts yet YOU conveniently avoided my best points... Like how is it productive to admit you're powerless over a substance and that you'll be stuck an alcoholic your whole life whether you're drinking or not? I still don't expect you to answer that but please quit calling the kettle black.

Considering in multiple posts I admitted that what he was saying for SOME people in AA - that's not me remotely saying "I'm right your wrong", quite the opposite actually. I don't want anyone to take my word for anything, to be quite honest - I want people to investigate for themselves, which is the point - I'm trying to show people that the opinion of one person who has never even been to AA isn't the standard for everyone.

But they should only investigate the positive aspects and turn a blind eye to anything else right?

 

[w01fg4ng]

If I could just step in and speak to this good point that RL has made:
I am a secular person--actually anti-religious if pressed--and yet I have no problem taking the truly wise aspects of religions and incorporating them into my own world view. For instance the golden rule from Christianity, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is probably the most succinct prescription for good relationships, an end to capitalism as we know it and world peace! You don't have to buy into the whole ugly religion to see the value in that wisdom. Likewise, Buddhism has given me a philosophy that really deepens my resilience to life's hardships as well as my experience of joy. But do I have to believe in all the silly prescriptions for behavior (like praying on the 49th day after a loved one's death to ensure something in their supposed afterlife)? No, I do not. I have my own mind. I can use it to decide for myself what is useful to me and what is not, what is true for me. The old saying, "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" comes to mind. For me, there is a lot of wisdom in the twelve steps, both for addiction and beyond. I never had a too much of a problem with the higher power but that is probably because I think in metaphorical terms naturally; plus as a non-believer in deities I am used to being in the minority.

As far as the dogmatism that exists in AA/NA--it exists everywhere! The argument about whether it is a self-righteous cult or whether it is simply groups of people getting together to try to integrate strategies for a healthier life misses the point IMO. A group is made up of individuals. Some are loud and domineering and some are quiet and self-effacing and everything in between. Like anywhere else in life, you look for the people that resonate with you and take the others as they come, letting their opinions just be their opinions. If a particular group is super religious and there is no room for any other perception of life, form another group. The idea that the support of a larger group is vital is true--it just may not be this group.

The bottom line for me is that taking a black and white polarized view of anything robs you of your ability to access what could be useful to you, reject what isn't and be in control of your own choices. It is all free choice (except when the courts are dictating and as RL said, that is for another thread).

At 60, I have seen many of my friends and family members deal with addiction over their lifetimes. Most have used AA/NA in the beginning and then moved on. Some have made AA a lifelong practice. Only two out of quite a few of those people are actually believers in a god. What I admire about all of these people in my life is that they made a commitment to developing strategies that work for them and they continually come back to those, whatever they are. It's not about quitting a drug. It's about understanding yourself and your place in time and space. It's about making life better for everyone starting with yourself.

May everyone feel free to find peace for themselves using their own hearts and minds and their connections to one another.

Extremely well said.

 

[caseface99]

Just because you disagree with something doesn't mean you don't know anything about it.

Yeah except ONLY "knowing" what biased sources that disagree with something have told you is HARDLY knowing about something at all.

Yes it is my opinion that AA is a flawed program to the core. My OPINION. My OPINION. But people are free to do what they want. I think it's only fair that they know the pros and cons tho especially if they just blindly think AA is the right choice for recovery.

The problem is that you have specifically said that all of the pros are pointless, worthless, and should be ignored because there are some cons too.

I was talking about both you and the other person. Would it have been better if I said your bastardized version of AA? Can you say projection?

The fact that you call it a "bastardized version of AA" makes it clear that you don't understand what the program is about, especially since I have already explained that the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking, which is specifically stated at every meeting. Again, every single part of the program consists of suggestions - nothing more, nothing less. This is specifically stated in the literature and the choice to work any part of the program is left up to the individual.

The original post by the OP was about how AA wasn't working for him. I more or less just wanted to let him know that he's not the only one. You're the one that originally called me out even tho there were countless other posters saying how they don't like AA either. Don't call me out on something if you don't want a response from me, or be able to defend yourself against valid points without twisting things around.

You're "letting him know he's not the only one" when you aren't even in recovery and have never been to an AA meeting. I responded to one of your posts initially because you were the only person I saw who was attacking the program in it's entirety, and obviously I expected a response. I haven't twisted anything around, I've shown how I work a program in a successful way that includes things I have learned from AA, and you have done nothing to rebut that besides saying "thats not valid because its not AA" when it is in fact AA.

Lol... I stated plenty of facts and some opinions based on facts yet YOU conveniently avoided my best points... Like how is it productive to admit you're powerless over a substance and that you'll be stuck an alcoholic your whole life whether you're drinking or not? I still don't expect you to answer that but please quit calling the kettle black.

I don't agree that I am powerless of drinking and using drugs. But I am powerless over the obsession. I am powerless over whether or not I will get triggered and have a craving, and you absolutely cannot say that people aren't powerless over this. The craving/mental obsession is caused by changes in the brain that occur after significant abuse - physiological changes that the American Medical Association defines as a brain disease. Working this step by looking at how I am powerless over having cravings having already caused changes to my brain has helped me a lot. And this is one of those times where I would say that every true alcoholic is powerless, powerless over whether or not they have a craving. You absolutely choose to drink when you have a craving but you cannot control whether or not the craving happens, only how you deal with it. I'm guessing your only response to this will probably be "yeah but thats not AA" to which I will laugh, and I won't bother explaining again how it is in fact AA. If you had actually been to meetings you would know that every sponsor teaches the steps in a different way. That's hundreds of thousands, if not millions of ways of working the steps - and you are trying to say every single one of those is totally worthless and will not just fail for you, but make you worse then when you started. This is simply a mass generalization from a sadly misinformed individual.

But they should only investigate the positive aspects and turn a blind eye to anything else right?

That's actually a really good way to go through everything in life - so yes, exactly... Use what works for you and ignore everything else. Why not? What is the harm in that?

I'd be willing to bet there is not a program on the planet that everyone will agree 100% with everything they say/do. You keep telling me to quit AA and find a program I agree with in its entirety except that goal is entirely unrealistic.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

I actually went to an AA meeting the other night, after not having gone to any in a while, and I was kinda bummed. It was not a good meeting and I don't think I'm going to go back to that one. Everyone who spoke, just threw out slogan after slogan. Nobody could talk and tell a story without quoting the big book or using some corny slogan. I really turned me off.

I really don't like it when people turn into parodies of themselves, and develop this artificial personality, just substituting their drugging/drinking for becoming an AA robot.

 

[caseface99]

^^ I agree those meetings are pretty unfortunate. I would try checking the schedule for young peoples meetings and if there aren't any specific YP meetings you could always just ask somebody at a meeting if they know of any in your area that tend to have a younger crowd. Even some of the meetings with older crowds end up having a solid message that doesn't revolve around big book thumping and repetitive phrases. I'm sure you can find a good one if you look.

You could also check out some other programs meeting schedules for your area and see if there are any Smart Recovery or LifeRing meetings or anything similar to that, should be easy to find the schedules online. The meetings themselves have always helped me more than the specific program, So I'd definitely suggest trying out different meetings and different programs before abandoning the idea.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

^^

That's part of the reason I was so bummed. This was a Young Peoples meeting, though it still had a few older people too. So I expected something a lot different. It was a bummer. Though there was one incredibly gorgeous chic there.. but, I have a girlfriend so all that would do is get me into trouble hah, and going back to a meeting because of the eye candy isn't the best reason.

 

[nuttynutskin]

Yeah except ONLY "knowing" what biased sources that disagree with something have told you is HARDLY knowing about something at all.

How do you know I've only researched biased sources? Just because I'm adamantly against AA doesn't mean I haven't read the pros and cons.

The problem is that you have specifically said that all of the pros are pointless, worthless, and should be ignored because there are some cons too.

I don't see that as a problem because that's just my conclusion and opinion. Like I said people can do what they want but I'm not one to sit around and not speak out about something that I disagree with.

The fact that you call it a "bastardized version of AA" makes it clear that you don't understand what the program is about, especially since I have already explained that the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking, which is specifically stated at every meeting. Again, every single part of the program consists of suggestions - nothing more, nothing less. This is specifically stated in the literature and the choice to work any part of the program is left up to the individual.

Lol you invented your own program and claim AA, yet I don't understand the program. As far as I know in AA you're supposed to follow the steps. If you want to claim what you're doing then no one can stop you I guess. And I would have to go back and look, but as far as I know the Big Book doesn't say pick and choose what steps you want to follow or create your own.

You're "letting him know he's not the only one" when you aren't even in recovery and have never been to an AA meeting. I responded to one of your posts initially because you were the only person I saw who was attacking the program in it's entirety, and obviously I expected a response. I haven't twisted anything around, I've shown how I work a program in a successful way that includes things I have learned from AA, and you have done nothing to rebut that besides saying "thats not valid because its not AA" when it is in fact AA.

Again, I've made plenty of other good points other than saying "that's not AA" but we're just going around in circles now.

I don't agree that I am powerless of drinking and using drugs. But I am powerless over the obsession. I am powerless over whether or not I will get triggered and have a craving, and you absolutely cannot say that people aren't powerless over this.

Maybe not powerless on feeling the craving (which will eventually dissipate on their own given time), but definitely up to them whether they act on it or not. There's been many times I had the craving to punch someone in the face but I was able to stop myself from doing it.

The craving/mental obsession is caused by changes in the brain that occur after significant abuse - physiological changes that the American Medical Association defines as a brain disease.

I will agree that long term alcohol abuse or drug abuse does cause changes in the brain, although I still don't look at it as something like Alzheimer's per se. But if you bothered watching the Youtube vid I posted, wouldn't it make more sense to work with a detox/treatment recovery type of program based on science and medicine instead of a program just based on dogma that doesn't address anything medically? I mean hell, AA is against using Naxolone which has been shown to be a good way of helping alcoholics stop their addiction, yet they have no problem with caffeine, cigarettes, and AA itself which I personally would consider a drug.

Working this step by looking at how I am powerless over having cravings having already caused changes to my brain has helped me a lot. And this is one of those times where I would say that every true alcoholic is powerless, powerless over whether or not they have a craving. You absolutely choose to drink when you have a craving but you cannot control whether or not the craving happens, only how you deal with it. I'm guessing your only response to this will probably be "yeah but thats not AA" to which I will laugh, and I won't bother explaining again how it is in fact AA. If you had actually been to meetings you would know that every sponsor teaches the steps in a different way. That's hundreds of thousands, if not millions of ways of working the steps - and you are trying to say every single one of those is totally worthless and will not just fail for you, but make you worse then when you started. This is simply a mass generalization from a sadly misinformed individual.

Sadly misinformed individual... That's pretty hilarious since countless others have more or less my same stance on AA. As far as a response, I would just say the same thing that I already have.

That's actually a really good way to go through everything in life - so yes, exactly... Use what works for you and ignore everything else. Why not? What is the harm in that?

Sarcasm fail.

I'd be willing to bet there is not a program on the planet that everyone will agree 100% with everything they say/do. You keep telling me to quit AA and find a program I agree with in its entirety except that goal is entirely unrealistic.

Where did I ever tell you to quit AA? All I said is why wouldn't it make sense to find a more compatible program since you yourself disagree with a lot of things in AA. I mean you live CA where I'm assuming there's tons of options.

Bottom line is I think people seeking recovery should find the best program to suit their needs. If that's AA then so be it. But like I've probably already said 100 times is that they should at least know that the whole being powerless over their addiction and that they will always be an alcoholic or addict (which is the same thing) is bullshit. If they can look past that part and AA helps them out then more power to them I guess.

 

[w01fg4ng]

There's been many times I had the craving to punch someone in the face

There's a 12 step program for that, most likely in your area. Try google.

 

[nuttynutskin]

There's a 12 step program for that, most likely in your area. Try google.

I don't doubt that since there's 12 step programs for smokers, although AA doesn't seem to have a problem with that. lulz Are there any 12 step programs for eating too much Twinkies? Probably. 8)

 

[w01fg4ng]

I don't doubt that since there's 12 step programs for smokers, although AA doesn't seem to have a problem with that. lulz Are there any 12 step programs for eating too much Twinkies? Probably. 8)

No AA doesn't have a problem with smokers OR drinkers for that matter.

Anger management is a very serious issue, and the fact that you are making fun of it (as well as eating disorders) in a recovery forum is a pretty good indication that you need help yourself.