12 step discussion thread Voice your opinions here!

[nuttynutskin]

No AA doesn't have a problem with smokers OR drinkers for that matter.

My point was chain smoke and drink as much coffee as you want (both of which are drugs), but you had one beer? Well you relapsed and are back at square one.

Anger management is a very serious issue, and the fact that you are making fun of it (as well as eating disorders) in a recovery forum is a pretty good indication that you need help yourself.

For christ sakes I was being facetious. I can't believe the amount of projection in this thread. But no, you got me. I'm secretly a bulimic with anger control issues. 8)

Willpower and science > Guilt and dogma

People are faced with choices everyday but in the end it's up to them. Sure other people/programs can help but it's still up to the person to change. So with that I propose my very own one step program...

1. Stop drinking.

That is all.

 

[w01fg4ng]

My point was chain smoke and drink as much coffee as you want (both of which are drugs), but you had one beer? Well you relapsed and are back at square one.

So, where exactly does having just "one beer" fall into your one step program you came up with all by yourself:

"1. Stop drinking"

??

For christ sakes I was being facetious.

Why? Do you think you are funny?

 

[nuttynutskin]

So, where exactly does having just "one beer" fall into your one step program you came up with all by yourself:

"1. Stop drinking"

??

If you feel that it was a problem then revert back to the first step... STOP DRINKING. Rocket science I know.

Why? Do you think you are funny?

No I'm extremely serious all the time and never smile, joke, or use sarcasm.

Anyways, this is just becoming nonsense. With the respect of this thread and the mods I'm going to try to refrain from responding to anything else unless someone wants to actually debate any of the key points I've made against AA. Hopefully I don't get sucked back in.

 

[neversickanymore]

The deal though isn't stopping drinking it being happy and peaceful when you do.. not saying that its the only way cause its not and its ideas were borrowed from the great sages of time.. but despite its truely unattractive qualities its on the right track.. to bad its so self righteous it cant adapt and move forward. Some of us will move forward and make something better using some of what they have shown.. that and get rid of a whole bunch of the crap. I dont see them being around in a hundred years. except in the history books. But allot of their ideas and principals will live on. such is life for something that is so rigid it cant adapt.

 

[ebola?]

The 12-step method seems to work well for some people and poorly for others. I find it problematic, though, that it's nearly monolithic despite the presence of alternatives (particularly personalized cognitive-behavioral therapy). However, I think that abandonment of 12-step programs outright on the basis of their supposed religious emphasis is a bit of a cop-out. Your "higher power" can be any number of things, eg the sum causal interactions determinate of phenomena in the universe at large. There are multiple programs in operation in any given area, and they vary a lot in their religious emphasis. For those turned off by the idea that one is always an addict, you can just reinterpret the statement as defining some individuals as predisposed to patterns of usage that render sensible, non-addictive behavior untenable.

However, some study suggests that those who are highly irreligious and possess a high degree of skill in abstract reasoning do poorly with the 12-step method.

ebola

 

[w01fg4ng]

If you feel that it was a problem then revert back to the first step... STOP DRINKING. Rocket science I know.

Revert back? There is only one step you provided, please correct me if I'm wrong here. Are there now two steps in your program?

The deal though isn't stopping drinking it being happy and peaceful when you do.. not saying that its the only way cause its not and its ideas were borrowed from the great sages of time.. but despite its truely unattractive qualities its on the right track.. to bad its so self righteous it cant adapt and move forward. Some of us will move forward and make something better using some of what they have shown.. that and get rid of a whole bunch of the crap. I dont see them being around in a hundred years. except in the history books. But allot of their ideas and principals will live on. such is life for something that is so rigid it cant adapt.

That's the interesting thing about the program though. Like religion, it's survived through the times standing steady in it's ways. It's still here for a few reasons. Some of those reasons are good

 

[nuttynutskin]

Revert back? There is only one step you provided, please correct me if I'm wrong here. Are there now two steps in your program?

Again, your ability to detect sarcasm is uncanny. Yes revert back to the first step which is the only step. Get it now?

 

[ebola?]

The argument about whether it is a self-righteous cult or whether it is simply groups of people getting together to try to integrate strategies for a healthier life misses the point IMO. A group is made up of individuals. Some are loud and domineering and some are quiet and self-effacing and everything in between.

But individuals never operate outside of the institutional frameworks in which they're embedded. In this way, it can be argued that AA cultivates a cultural context wherein people are likely to engage in self-righteous and dogmatic practices of presentation of meanings (and in particular conceptions of selves). This doesn't invalidate your wider point that individuals should partially identify with institutions as tools whereby they selectively borrow useful coping mechanisms though. . .

ebola

 

[w01fg4ng]

Yes revert back to the first step which is the only step.

Which logistically means you never drink. By your current logic, you aren't allowed outside of Step 1, which says you can't drink.

So again, I ask you exactly where does having one beer fit into your Steps?

 

[w01fg4ng]

The 12 Steps are a remarkably thought out process.

It blows my mind how quickly people are to completely disregard all of them and when asked to come up with a better solution the best they can come up with is a cryptic two word One Step program (i.e. nutty's 1 step program) which can't even answer the simplest of questions.

How easy it is for us to forget that it's a lot easier to destroy than it is to create?

 

[electrodevo]

It blows my mind how quickly people are to completely disregard all of them and when asked to come up with a better solution the best they can come up with is a cryptic two word One Step program (i.e. nutty's 1 step program) which can't even answer the simplest of questions.

The answer is often simple: "Nothing at all."

Findings: Of people classified with PPY alcohol dependence, 25.0 percent were still classified as dependent in the past year; 27.3 percent were classified as being in partial remission; 11.8 percent were asymptomatic risk drinkers who demonstrated a pattern of drinking that put them at risk of relapse; 17.7 percent were low-risk drinkers; and 18.2 percent were abstainers. Only 25.5 percent of people with PPY dependence ever received treatment. (Source)

In other words, many people classified as "alcoholic" are able to "adjust" their drinking habits on their own. A lot of this depends on the severity of the alcoholism, of course -- as well as other social pressures and situation. It all depends, but for the type of person that is at the stage where they recognize their drinking habits are harmful and back off on their own... I'd say AA/NA type meetings are totally useless.

For the heavier addict that cannot control their behavior, and especially those that have no social support structure to help with addiction recover, AA / NA certainly can be a good fit. Depends on the purpose.

This of course furthers the argument that a lot of the problem with AA/NA is the court-ordered mandate aspect of it. If a judge sends every DUI case to AA without further thought, they are probably sending cases to AA that they shouldn't be.

Ebola: While it is certainly possible to reinterpret "one is always an addict" to a more scientific-oriented statement, AA certainly isn't doing that. It's certainly difficult to reconcile that data with the above survey. No other brain-oriented disorder has that sort of pratter; imagine "once a depressive, always a depressive" or "once you have OCD, you always have OCD" or "once you have autism, you always have autism", right? While being somewhat true, is is completely wrong on scale (like the other disorders, the degree of addictive compulsive behavior varies from person to person, and like the other disorders, the treatment needed completely varies from person to person).

And who would try treating autism, OCD, or major depression *solely* with a higher power removing "defects of character"? God / higher powers is great as a supplemental force for those who believe, a brain that wants to improve can do wonders. But addiction is a medical disorder, not a character defect. Period.

(Mind you, AA can still be helpful despite their dogma on some things, but I do think they should update their 12 steps and remove some of the prattle that still sounds like it came from the 1930s.)

 

[w01fg4ng]

The answer is often simple: "Nothing at all."

That specific question (where does one beer fit in your Steps?) is in direct context of nutty's 1 step program. He claims that all he has to do is follow one step, which is to not drink. He also claims that one beer is not a relapse.

Feel free to follow nutty's one step program if it works for you, however it's flaws are more obvious than Reagan's "Just Say No" program. At least Reagan's program is sound.

 

[ebola?]

imagine "once a depressive, always a depressive"

In a sense, this is true though, in that most people who have suffered from major depression (or even dysthymia) are likely to be more severely affected by life's routine set-backs and stressors and need remain vigilant to avoid spiraling back into despondency. It's of course easier to manage the condition in the absence of such stressors, just as it's easier to manage addiction without taking drugs.

And who would try treating autism, OCD, or major depression *solely* with a higher power removing "defects of character"? God / higher powers is great as a supplemental force for those who believe, a brain that wants to improve can do wonders. But addiction is a medical disorder, not a character defect. Period.

I'm not sure that AA treats addiction as a character defect, though, as wouldn't this imply that the solution for addicts is to behave morally rather than submitting to authority? I mean, I'm no expert on 12-step programs. . .

ebola

 

[treezy z]

i really didn't like 12 step programs, i never felt welcome at meetings, i didn't like the indoctrination by way of slogan, and there's just as many fake people in the programs as anywhere.

 

[electrodevo]

That specific question (where does one beer fit in your Steps?) is in direct context of nutty's 1 step program. He claims that all he has to do is follow one step, which is to not drink. He also claims that one beer is not a relapse.

Correct and correct. For some people, this works.

There is in fact a support group with this goal in mind (Moderation Management). The "steps" of moderation management are more cognitive behavioral based and are not "all or nothing" or spiritual based. For this reason, MM has proven to be quite controversial.

(MM also, IMHO incorrectly, views that alcoholism is entirely behavioral, with no medical basis. IMHO, the correct answer is we do not understand enough about the brain to thoroughly treat alcohol addiction...)

I think MM is a more correct support group for quite a number of problem drinkers. I think there are certainly people, alcoholics, that should not follow a MM type program at all. (And some people may not even want a support group at all -- say, introverted types, right?) One has to determine whether or not they are an alcoholic (in which full abstention probably is necessary) or a problem drinker (in which case behavior modification may indeed work much better).

I'm not sure that AA treats addiction as a character defect, though, as wouldn't this imply that the solution for addicts is to behave morally rather than submitting to authority? I mean, I'm no expert on 12-step programs. . .

I'm taking the original 12 step wording from Wikipedia (see below). As far as I know, the main changes in AA have been to transform "God" into "higher power" from what I know...

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

So yes, as far as I can tell, AA *is* a "behave morally" type of support group. The "higher power" is merely a framework and reason for changing your behavior. And if you are into religion / spirituality / higher order things of some sort and like to use that to help your behavior, that's great. But I do believe that the crux of alcoholism is medical. Which is why AA can only be used to control the symptoms, not cure (as they admit pretty much in the 12 steps).

 

[nuttynutskin]

That specific question (where does one beer fit in your Steps?) is in direct context of nutty's 1 step program. He claims that all he has to do is follow one step, which is to not drink. He also claims that one beer is not a relapse.

Feel free to follow nutty's one step program if it works for you, however it's flaws are more obvious than Reagan's "Just Say No" program. At least Reagan's program is sound.

You're hilarious... It's flaws are more obvious than Reagan's "Just Say No" program, yet my program is no different than AA. It just has all the extraneous bullshit taken out. According to the other poster the only requirements to attend AA is a wish to quit drinking so how is my hypothetical program any different? As far as having one beer, that's only a relapse if you consider it one in my program. My program is based on willpower and personal choice unlike AA.

 

[neversickanymore]

I hate the words because they are bullshit, but "character flaws" are well documented in addicts.. its really what makes us so successful if we can stay sober or is a very life promoting way of looking at the world, miserable but life and "success" promoting. We seem to get our drive to be successful out being really restless, anxiety filled, among other things. People of this inherent life approach are often wildly "successful'

Here is a list of what they came up with for common traits of addicts.

1. often become angry at or afraid of authority figures and will attempt to work them against each other in order to get their own way

2. seek approval and frequently lose their own identities in the process

3. are able to make a good first impression but are unable to follow through

4. have difficulty accepting personal criticism and become threatened and angry when criticized

5. have addictive personalities and are driven to extremes

6. are self-rejecting or self-alienated

7. are often immobilized by anger and frustration and are rarely satisfied

8. are usually lonely even when surrounded by people

9. are chronic complainers who blame others for what's wrong with their lives

10. feel unappreciated and think they don't fit in

11. see the world as a jungle filled with selfish people who "aren't there" for them

12. see everything as a catastrophe, a life-and-death situation

13. judge life in absolutes: black or white, right or wrong

14. live in the past while fearful of the future

15. have strong feelings of dependence and exaggerated fears of abandonment

16. fear failure and rejection and don't try new things that they might not do well

17. are obsessed with money and material things

18. dream big plans and schemes and have little ability to make them happen

19. cannot tolerate illness in themselves or others

20. prefer to charm superiors and intimidate subordinates

21. believe rules and laws are for others, not for themselves

22. often become addicted to excitement, life in the fast lane

23. hold emotional pain within and lose touch with their feelings

Not every one has them all but all of us if we are honest with ourselves will likely find some relevant things here.. stinking thinking / character flaws.

This does not mean that the fellowships are the only way to deal with this as they borrowed so much of their wisdom from the enlightened people over history. but that said it is imperative that an addict address the relevant ones if they want to have a peaceful recovery. Drugs were never the problem, they were just a failed solution that made things worse, the underlying cause of the drug abuse is in these thoughts. Before drugs where so widely available we would seek refuge in other things, work, creativity, learning, food, sex, achievement, wealth, etc , all of which promoted a life.. now that the drugs are here and everywhere we are having some big troubles.

This is only the cause of our love of drugs.. once we fell in love with them we caused a whole bunch of other problems that need to be dealt with.

 

[w01fg4ng]

^^NSA you have the MOST helpful information. thank you.

You're hilarious... It's flaws are more obvious than Reagan's "Just Say No" program, yet my program is no different than AA. It just has all the extraneous bullshit taken out. According to the other poster the only requirements to attend AA is a wish to quit drinking so how is my hypothetical program any different? As far as having one beer, that's only a relapse if you consider it one in my program. My program is based on willpower and personal choice unlike AA.

I even have your slogan figured out.

"Just Say Maybe"

It's catchy. Run with it.

 

[ebola?]

have addictive personalities

ebola

 

[neversickanymore]

Rofl..