12 step discussion thread Voice your opinions here!

[Zwanya]

I never heard such a thing but what the Dalai Lama has to do with 12 steps I have clue. I mean what, he's going to admit he's powerless over alcohol? I never even knew he was an alcoholic. I wonder if he advocates telling atheists to find god?

Sorry to interrupt, but are you being serious here, or are you being facetious? Either way, I find it difficult to believe that anyone couldn't see the connection between what the Dalai Lama's views are and the 12 steps. I'm not a member of AA myself, but the connection is obvious, even to me. For many, doing step work is a way to heal and grow spiritually, using prayer and meditation in order to do so. As the person continues to turn to meditation and prayer instead of the bottle or the syringe, their sprirtuality blossoms.

The 12 steps also focus on behavior modification. It stops being about drinking and using concretely at around step 3. The rest of the work focuses on changing toxic behaivor, looking honestly at one's destructive patterns, making amends for such actions and behavior, and working to rebuild a life that is far removed from their former damaged, and damaging, way of life.

All jokes aside, when taking all of this into account it becomes blatantly clear that for many, 12 step work is actually a spiritual journey. Of course the Dalai Lama would find common ground with the 12 steps and solidarity with those who are utilizing them.

 

[neversickanymore]

Just to show an example of another way to look at the steps:

The Spiral Steps
1. We admitted that we had a problem and made the decision to reclaim our lives.
2. We came to believe that there was hope for healing, health and balance.
3. We now honor our connection with the divine, as we understand it, and we accept the process of change.
4. We make a searching, fearless and honest inventory of our behavior and beliefs. We consider their effect on our physical, mental, emotional and spiritual selves and their impact on our relations with others.
5. We admit to ourselves and to another human being what is both healthy and unhealthy in our lives and we make a daily commitment to heal ourselves in body, mind and spirit.
6. We are willing to seek our Highest Good and to grow both spiritually and emotionally.
7. We let go of dysfunctional thoughts and behaviors and we consciously welcome joy, love and peace into our lives.
8. We make a list of all beings we have harmed, including ourselves, and we become willing to make amends to them all.
9. We work to restore balance in our lives. We make direct amends to others wherever possible and we value and care for ourselves.
10. We continue to take personal inventory and promptly acknowledge both our mistakes and our achievements whenever they occur.
11. We continue to grow in compassion, strength and understanding. We learn to celebrate our lives and our connection to all living things.
12. Having had a spiritual and emotional awakening, we work to help others along the path and we practice these principles in all our affairs.

I like this version.. we also have a thread going in SL where there are other versions, and people are encouraged to contribute any seriouse alternatives to the traditional twelve steps or add any steps they think would help combat or heal from addiction.

I personally think that some of the wording used by the fellowships and other facets of addiction recovery are about as poorly thought out as they could be. "Powerless", "defects of character", "We made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him." are some poorly worded shit IMO from the fellowships.



And from rehab, the old "king baby".. Only a moron would call a person suffering from addict thinking a "king baby" as it just turns to many addicts off.

link Alternate Versions and Added Steps to the 12 Steps

 

[_DankOpiAmp_]

Caseface:

If you completely warp and change the program into something else why do you pretend you are still using the same thing? All our criticisms are legitimate, you are not even defending the program because you are using something different, Jesus Christ. You should just make a separate organization so you don't get associated with the ills of the original program. You are masquerading in 12-stepper clothing for marketing purposes. The "12" steps are now arbitrary.

In most programs the steps are dogma and randomly changing them is seen as abandoning the program.

It is like the smart-Alec fucktards who argue that god is real except they do not use the traditional Abrahamic definition of god but instead use a god defined as "happiness" or some shit so the argument goes nowhere because the person I'm arguing with started with a bogus, invalid definition in the first place.

 

[omnipresenthuman]

The problem I have with what all of you are saying is not that it's 100% simply untrue - It's that it's all massive generalizations about a very diverse group of people. There is absolutely no difference between what you guys are saying and saying that every single Jew is a greedy money grubbing douchebag, or that every black person is a dirty criminal fried chicken loving watermelon eater, or that every single Asian is great at math and sucks at driving - Stereotypical generalizations that simply do not hold true to entire populations of people. Are there tons of people in AA who match exactly what you guys are describing? YES. Are there tons of people, like myself, who are the exact opposite of what you guys are describing? YES. The difference is that I'm willing to admit that both types exist...

Where I live, there are multiple AA meetings every single day of the week that are nothing like what you guys describe. There are even plenty of specifically atheist/agnostic meetings around here... And even at the meetings that aren't specifically atheist/agnostic you are STILL going to find dozens of people who refuse to go to church or even use a judeo-christian god as their higher power.

I interviewed 20 people in AA at random about what their higher powers were and literally ONE person out of the 20 called their higher power god. The other 19 used things such as "meetings", "the universe", "my higher self", "meditation", etc. I legitimately did these interviews 6-7 months ago while doing my third step, because at the time I thought it meant I literally had to turn my will over to an all power flying spaghetti monster, so to speak and I wasn't cool with that. - Through my research I learned that this is not remotely what it means unless you so choose to look at it that way. NOW, every time I see or hear the word god at a meeting I simply think of "the connection between all living things." Does that make me a weak minded moron?

In one sense I really do agree with you guys - I do see people who treat the big book like the bible and preach religion to stay sober. But at least around here, I know WAY more people like me who utilize what works for them, leave the rest, and preach nothing. Maybe I live in a bubble - Maybe AA really is that bad in other areas, all I know is that you guys don't even go to AA and you're trying to talk shit about something you know nothing about. And not that it matters because you still think it's bullshit since you don't like it, but when it started there was only 5-6 steps, not 12 - so how is it that "things haven't changed since the beginning" when the number of steps has doubled?

Caseface99, I'm not trying to call you out, but your avatar says you live in the Bay Area, California - are you really trying to tell me the average person who attends AA in Cali, in the San Francisco area no less, is going to be like the average person you meet in AA in the majority of the US?

Or, at least, the South in general?

Just saying, but yeah, you are living in a bubble out west compared to where I, and most Americans, live

I feel you, and I respect that you're a sober individual, but I feel like you should already know that using the Bay Area as your case study for what's normal to expect at AA meetings in America is kind of patently ridiculous.

 

[thedawn]

i started this topic and I'm back on my feet somewhat after depressive episodes.

re case face,what the fuck,man,i did NOT make a judgment of the program as a whole.
if u read the thread title it says "is it just me?".

ok,i live in the Bay too and it's a bubble in the US,no doubt.
Bay Area AA is not representative for anything else than us going to Bay Area meetings.

this was my personal experience with one particular meeting and i got very hurt.
yeah,I'm easily hurt.some are.

I don't recommend AA or talk shit about it anymore.
i KNOW it works for many.
but not most.do your homework.

being in a bad place i need simply to have a connection to the
outside world.
what I'm doing now is going to NA meetings locally as i have too much
anxiety to travel by bus.

i go to NA meetings,i don't raise my voice,i just sit and listen.
i don't talk to anyone apart from whats up,how are you.
12 step groups is not a cure-all,the focus on GOD,I'm saying GOD and not spirituality since
the big book uses the word GOD 500 something times.

the god talk is very off putting for new comers.

it's bullshit IMO that u can work the program without surrendering your will and your life to GOD.
the steps clearly tells us to believe or fuck off the way i see it.

i,for one,am not turning my will and life over to anyone.
especially not a myth or something very vague.

what person can gain from giving up your will to a questionable character we can't see
with our eyes or know anything about?

 

[nuttynutskin]

The facts though, are that myself and countless others I have met work the steps in such a way that has nothing to do with religion, faith, god, or any of the other "bullshit"" aforementioned in this thread.

So in other words it's a different program...

Just to show an example of another way to look at the steps:

The Spiral Steps
1. We admitted that we had a problem and made the decision to reclaim our lives.
2. We came to believe that there was hope for healing, health and balance.
3. We now honor our connection with the divine, as we understand it, and we accept the process of change.
4. We make a searching, fearless and honest inventory of our behavior and beliefs. We consider their effect on our physical, mental, emotional and spiritual selves and their impact on our relations with others.
5. We admit to ourselves and to another human being what is both healthy and unhealthy in our lives and we make a daily commitment to heal ourselves in body, mind and spirit.
6. We are willing to seek our Highest Good and to grow both spiritually and emotionally.
7. We let go of dysfunctional thoughts and behaviors and we consciously welcome joy, love and peace into our lives.
8. We make a list of all beings we have harmed, including ourselves, and we become willing to make amends to them all.
9. We work to restore balance in our lives. We make direct amends to others wherever possible and we value and care for ourselves.
10. We continue to take personal inventory and promptly acknowledge both our mistakes and our achievements whenever they occur.
11. We continue to grow in compassion, strength and understanding. We learn to celebrate our lives and our connection to all living things.
12. Having had a spiritual and emotional awakening, we work to help others along the path and we practice these principles in all our affairs.

Even your new program mentions having a spiritual awakening. Why do I need to have a spiritual awakening to quit booze and what exactly does this entail? Even your version has hints of religion imo.

I realize as I post this, that it is irrelevant to the discussion at hand because it's not AA. Sure, AA is filled with a bunch of bullshit - but I guess my point is exactly the same as Pen & Teller's point in that episode - Sculpt your own program, and don't be afraid to use aspects of something and leave other aspects out while doing that.

I don't believe that's what Penn and Teller's point was unless telling an atheist the higher power can be a rock is useful for recovery. Why wouldn't it make more sense to find a program that you believe in and suits you than to try to bastardize a program that you don't fully agree with so badly that it's not even the same program anymore? That just makes absolutely no sense to me.

The problem I have with what all of you are saying is not that it's 100% simply untrue - It's that it's all massive generalizations about a very diverse group of people. There is absolutely no difference between what you guys are saying and saying that every single Jew is a greedy money grubbing douchebag, or that every black person is a dirty criminal fried chicken loving watermelon eater, or that every single Asian is great at math and sucks at driving - Stereotypical generalizations that simply do not hold true to entire populations of people. Are there tons of people in AA who match exactly what you guys are describing? YES. Are there tons of people, like myself, who are the exact opposite of what you guys are describing? YES. The difference is that I'm willing to admit that both types exist...

But there's no stereotyping in saying that AA was started as a faith based organization. And people that aren't following it as such really aren't following AA at all.

I interviewed 20 people in AA at random about what their higher powers were and literally ONE person out of the 20 called their higher power god. The other 19 used things such as "meetings", "the universe", "my higher self", "meditation", etc. I legitimately did these interviews 6-7 months ago while doing my third step, because at the time I thought it meant I literally had to turn my will over to an all power flying spaghetti monster, so to speak and I wasn't cool with that. - Through my research I learned that this is not remotely what it means unless you so choose to look at it that way. NOW, every time I see or hear the word god at a meeting I simply think of "the connection between all living things." Does that make me a weak minded moron?

I don't think it makes you a weak minded moron but imo it's about akin to going to church and plugging your ears every time the preacher says god or anything about religion.

In one sense I really do agree with you guys - I do see people who treat the big book like the bible and preach religion to stay sober. But at least around here, I know WAY more people like me who utilize what works for them, leave the rest, and preach nothing. Maybe I live in a bubble - Maybe AA really is that bad in other areas, all I know is that you guys don't even go to AA and you're trying to talk shit about something you know nothing about.

People have talked shit sure, but also have backed it up and given plenty of reasons why it's a flawed program such as how it was a court mandated program that is based on faith until it was finally found unconstitutional in 2007. And yet you're going to accuse people of talking shit about something they know nothing about just because some haven't actually gone? Yeah, ok.

And not that it matters because you still think it's bullshit since you don't like it, but when it started there was only 5-6 steps, not 12 - so how is it that "things haven't changed since the beginning" when the number of steps has doubled?

I don't think anyone here just "doesn't like it" for no reason, but just because you have a personal vested interest in it doesn't mean it's free from scrutiny. I'm sure everyone here is glad you were able to get sober, there's just differences in opinion on how to get there. And the number of the steps doubling imo is a pretty weak argument and still evades the main points people made about why they disagree with the program. If AA worked for you then great, but don't expect everyone to agree with the program.

In most programs the steps are dogma and randomly changing them is seen as abandoning the program.

It is like the smart-Alec fucktards who argue that god is real except they do not use the traditional Abrahamic definition of god but instead use a god defined as "happiness" or some shit so the argument goes nowhere because the person I'm arguing with started with a bogus, invalid definition in the first place.

Well, there are more gods than just christian ones, but I understand what you're getting at lol. I sort of see what goes on a lot with 12 steppers as the equivalent of someone who claims to be christian but instead of trying to follow the bible to the best of their ability they change around or take out the parts that they don't agree with. That's also what irritates me about it... Just come out and say what it is already instead of trying convince people in bad spots in their life that your program is not faith based and is the only good program out there. That's one of the many reasons I find it so cult feeling.

 

[thedawn]

i agree with every point nutty nutskin brought up against case face biased opinions.

the guy seems brainwashed by AA IMO.
what nuttynutskin argued makes sense.

and it's sad.shouldnt be a fight that it's almost turning into.
it's very sad that addicts don't get help.
that the help available(and forced by court)is AA who thinks "why?" isn't a spiritual question….

AA needs to just admit defeat in certain areas and boast about their success in others.

it's not a one way street.
we are thinking individuals with intelligence.
AA seems to think we need re programming because we drank too much.
not right.

 

[caseface99]

i started this topic and I'm back on my feet somewhat after depressive episodes.

re case face,what the fuck,man,i did NOT make a judgment of the program as a whole.
if u read the thread title it says "is it just me?".

ok,i live in the Bay too and it's a bubble in the US,no doubt.
Bay Area AA is not representative for anything else than us going to Bay Area meetings.

this was my personal experience with one particular meeting and i got very hurt.
yeah,I'm easily hurt.some are.

I don't recommend AA or talk shit about it anymore.
i KNOW it works for many.
but not most.do your homework.

being in a bad place i need simply to have a connection to the
outside world.
what I'm doing now is going to NA meetings locally as i have too much
anxiety to travel by bus.

i go to NA meetings,i don't raise my voice,i just sit and listen.
i don't talk to anyone apart from whats up,how are you.
12 step groups is not a cure-all,the focus on GOD,I'm saying GOD and not spirituality since
the big book uses the word GOD 500 something times.

the god talk is very off putting for new comers.

it's bullshit IMO that u can work the program without surrendering your will and your life to GOD.
the steps clearly tells us to believe or fuck off the way i see it.

i,for one,am not turning my will and life over to anyone.
especially not a myth or something very vague.

what person can gain from giving up your will to a questionable character we can't see
with our eyes or know anything about?

I wasn't responding to you - I was responding to others in the thread. The steps specifically say "god of your own understanding" and nowhere in the literature is god defined. Meaning your higher power can be whatever you want, period. If your own definition of god is a higher awareness through meditation, and you meditate daily in order to help make clear minded decisions, is that not turning your will over to the god of your understanding?

So in other words it's a different program...


Even your new program mentions having a spiritual awakening. Why do I need to have a spiritual awakening to quit booze and what exactly does this entail? Even your version has hints of religion imo.

When the fuck did I ever say anybody needs anything to get sober? I simply gave an alternative way of looking at something, NOWHERE have I ever said you need to have a spiritual awakening. Nowhere have I ever said work the steps or you will fail. I am simply saying that it can be an effective way of treating addiction if you actually do it. The alternative version is an example of how it's effective with or without a belief in a higher power, because the parts I believe to be effective are the 9 steps that focus on changing fucked up behaviors and ways of thinking. Change your fucked up thoughts and behaviors, and you might be a less fucked up person. It's not rocket science, and quite frankly the god part isn't necessary, That does not make the rest of it bogus and nor does it make it the only way to stay sober. Just because something is effective does not make it the only thing that works and i never remotely suggested otherwise.

I don't believe that's what Penn and Teller's point was unless telling an atheist the higher power can be a rock is useful for recovery. Why wouldn't it make more sense to find a program that you believe in and suits you than to try to bastardize a program that you don't fully agree with so badly that it's not even the same program anymore? That just makes absolutely no sense to me.

why? because the other 9 steps have changed my life, and quite frankly so have the first 3 when looking at god in terms of MY OWN UNDERSTANDING (which has nothing to do with religion or traditional view of god, and has nothing to do with anyone else or how effective anything else could be. just because it works for me doesn't mean it will work for you, but what does that have to do with whether or not somebody should try it out? frankly nobody should or shouldn't try something based on yours or my experiences, they should make their own decision. )

But there's no stereotyping in saying that AA was started as a faith based organization. And people that aren't following it as such really aren't following AA at all.

There aren't any rules, there aren't any requirements other than a desire to stop drinking - there is nothing but suggestions in AA. The steps, the literature, everything in AA is a suggestion. Follow what is suggested or don't, its your choice and following whatever part that might work for you is fantastic. If you don't think any of it will work and you do something else thats also fantastic. Why do you care so much, anyway?

People have talked shit sure, but also have backed it up and given plenty of reasons why it's a flawed program such as how it was a court mandated program that is based on faith until it was finally found unconstitutional in 2007. And yet you're going to accuse people of talking shit about something they know nothing about just because some haven't actually gone? Yeah, ok.

The government fucked up, so obviously AA is responsible for that. "yeah, ok".
I agree there is no treatment that should be mandated because there is no flex fit cap for this shit.

I don't think anyone here just "doesn't like it" for no reason, but just because you have a personal vested interest in it doesn't mean it's free from scrutiny. I'm sure everyone here is glad you were able to get sober, there's just differences in opinion on how to get there. And the number of the steps doubling imo is a pretty weak argument and still evades the main points people made about why they disagree with the program. If AA worked for you then great, but don't expect everyone to agree with the program.

And just because you had a shitty experience doesn't mean everyone will, that is my only point and the only thing I'm arguing for, frankly. There is no difference in opinion on how to get sober, by the way, because I never once said "this is how you get sober". I said "this is how I got sober, and it can be effective if utilized even if you don't like god and look at things a little bit differently." Where in that argument does it say "this is the only way to get sober"?

Well, there are more gods than just christian ones, but I understand what you're getting at lol. I sort of see what goes on a lot with 12 steppers as the equivalent of someone who claims to be christian but instead of trying to follow the bible to the best of their ability they change around or take out the parts that they don't agree with. That's also what irritates me about it... Just come out and say what it is already instead of trying convince people in bad spots in their life that your program is not faith based and is the only good program out there. That's one of the reasons I find it so cult feeling.

Again, I never said it's the only good program, never even suggested it. And just because some people in AA do say that doesn't make the 9 steps that focus on changing your fucked up way of thinking and acting total bullshit. The fact of the matter is that addicts and alcoholics do fucked up shit, and have fucked up thoughts, and steps 4-12 provide a pretty damn simple way of realizing and fixing those fucked up thoughts and behaviors, as well as figuring out the events in your life that caused many of your fears and defects. (in step 7 where you pray to have god remove these defects, I found that useful only because I am now aware of my defects and consciously avoid them - I have no illusion about the fact that I'm doing that, not god - but then again my higher power basically is higher thinking so technically it is my god removing those defects but now it's just getting "stupid" in your opinion since thats different then what bill w saw it as 80 years ago even though it's still incredibly effective for me regardless of the fact that it might not be for everyone.) There's also the part where scientific studies have shown prayer to have a physical effect on your body, but thats a whole other discussion...


Trust me, if I had a day of sobriety for every newcomer I've seen scared away by all the god talk I'd have 20 years sober. I get where you guys are coming from. The only thing I'm trying to argue is that A) it can be incredibly effective if you stop focusing on what you don't like and focus on what you do like, B) not everyone in AA is the same, and nobody speaks for the program as a whole - period, C) there are no requirements besides a desire to stop drinking - which means taking what you like and leaving the rest specifically has NOTHING to do with whether or not you are working the program, so tailoring it to your own needs is not stupid but actually pretty fucking smart, D) looking at your fears, resentments, your character defects, and your fucked up ways of thinking are the biggest parts of the steps - are those not all pretty negative aspects of oneself that could potentially cause relapse?

And AGAIN - Never did I say that AA is better then anything else, I'm simply saying that just because you had a bad experience doesn't mean that everyone will, and just because you don't like ABC doesn't mean that DEF can't be really helpful, and doesn't mean you should ignore all of it based on one part.

You go to a restaurant, and you see a milkshake on the menu. Maybe half the menu is filled with deserts and goodies that have milk in them. You are lactose intolerant - so what do you do? You either order from the other half of the menu, or you politely leave and find somewhere else to eat. Likewise, if you go to a meeting, and you're spiritually intolerant, you either utilize the other half of the program or your find another way to stay sober... It's really that simple and I couldn't care any less then I already do about which choice somebody makes. You want to find a different way to stay sober thats fucking great! I'm stoked for you because quite frankly I KNOW that only 5% of us will make it, and the percentage doesn't change between different methods of recovery - so basically you either work a program or you don't, and you either stay sober or you don't - I don't care and I don't want anyone to work AA just because I said it works for me(along with a bunch of other shit I do) despite being an atheist -

I simply don't want people to say the entire menu is bullshit because they are lactose intolerant, so to speak...


edit- I realized that where I said "why do you care so much?" You could ask me the same question - so I'll answer it preemptively. I only care, and I'm only still responding to this, honestly because you are insulting me by saying the way I stay sober is stupid. It's more then just staying sober for me, It's totally changed me as a person from a selfish piece of shit into a productive, honest member of society, and you are saying that it won't work for the vast majority of people because it didn't work for you. You are saying that it does nothing but make people feel MORe like inferior pieces of shit, when I see hundreds of people every week who are happy and talk about being happy not just for the first time since getting sober, for the first time IN THEIR LIVES. I am currently the closest thing to "happy" I have ever been, since I can remember, since being a little kid - And it's because I've had the same fucked up way of thinking since I was a little kid and I'm finely taking action to address those defects. THAT is the entire point of the steps, not god. The god part is a formality of the era in which this was created, in my opinion. Subtract god (like it says you can do, since it's all SUGGESTIONS) and you're left with a pretty damn good method for changing your way of thinking and acting. That is all. If you have another way to stay sober, or another way to change your fucked up way of thinking and acting, OR if you don't believe the way you think and act is/ever was fucked up, all of those things are GREAT FOR YOU! Legitimately, that is not sarcasm I think thats GREAT!!!! Why can't you be stoked on something working for me or others in AA just because something different works for you and this isn't for you?

 

[thedawn]

newly sober ppl are very fragile and in no position to do much.

with heroin in example.

AA kind of tells u they are right.
that they know whats up.

God is mentioned countless times in the Big Book.the word GOD.

 

[nuttynutskin]

When the fuck did I ever say anybody needs anything to get sober?

Maybe you didn't outright say that but I just hear "Replace god with this, replace god with that" a lot from people that follow 12 step programs. It seems silly to me but as far as that it's neither here nor there I guess.

I simply gave an alternative way of looking at something, NOWHERE have I ever said you need to have a spiritual awakening. Nowhere have I ever said work the steps or you will fail. I am simply saying that it can be an effective way of treating addiction if you actually do it. The alternative version is an example of how it's effective with or without a belief in a higher power, because the parts I believe to be effective are the 9 steps that focus on changing fucked up behaviors and ways of thinking. Change your fucked up thoughts and behaviors, and you might be a less fucked up person. It's not rocket science, and quite frankly the god part isn't necessary, That does not make the rest of it bogus and nor does it make it the only way to stay sober. Just because something is effective does not make it the only thing that works and i never remotely suggested otherwise.

Ok, but at that point you ARE NOT following the program the way it was intended to be. If that worked for you I'm all for it, I just don't know why you're so adamant that what you're doing is still AA.

why? because the other 9 steps have changed my life, and quite frankly so have the first 3 when looking at god in terms of MY OWN UNDERSTANDING (which has nothing to do with religion or traditional view of god, and has nothing to do with anyone else or how effective anything else could be. just because it works for me doesn't mean it will work for you, but what does that have to do with whether or not somebody should try it out? frankly nobody should or shouldn't try something based on yours or my experiences, they should make their own decision. )

I agree that people should make their own decisions, and that's a large part of the reason I'm so adamantly against AA as a whole. I can think of many examples of how someone in AA might not necessarily be making their own decisions. The main one is probably that IMO AA preys on people in bad situations, convinces them that they are powerless over their addiction and will always have it, and then offers them the one route to "recovery" (although how do you recover from something that you're told you will always have in the first place?) That to me is basically equivalent to brainwashing. As far as I know no one in AA ever says that it's your decision to drink and you can stop at anytime.

There aren't any rules, there aren't any requirements other than a desire to stop drinking - there is nothing but suggestions in AA. The steps, the literature, everything in AA is a suggestion. Follow what is suggested or don't, its your choice and following whatever part that might work for you is fantastic. If you don't think any of it will work and you do something else thats also fantastic. Why do you care so much, anyway?

Like I already pretty much said, I care because I'm against telling people that are already in a fragile state of mind that they have a disease that they will always have, when scientifically that's a steaming load of horseshit. Maybe things are different in the Hippyville, CA AA meetings, but like it was already mentioned in this thread I don't think that's a good representation of how it is other places.

And just because you had a shitty experience doesn't mean everyone will, that is my only point and the only thing I'm arguing for, frankly. There is no difference in opinion on how to get sober, by the way, because I never once said "this is how you get sober". I said "this is how I got sober, and it can be effective if utilized even if you don't like god and look at things a little bit differently." Where in that argument does it say "this is the only way to get sober"?

I've never been to AA. I'm not an atheist surprisingly. I just disagree with it on a principal level. One time through a family member I called and talked to someone that was big into AA not so much because I was looking to go to meetings, but I thought having someone to talk to sometimes might help me drink less when I was depressed. Well the first conversation I ever had with they guy who I didn't even know I felt like I was trying to be recruited into a cult or something. He seemed less interested in finding out about me as a person than trying to get me to go to a meeting, get me a copy of the big book, and call him the next day. I realize that in his mind he thought he was helping me, but seriously what person who doesn't even know you asks for you to check up with them the next day? I think that sort of goes along with the brainwashing that seems to go on with AA. I'm a fucking grown man who calls people when I feel like it.

Again, I never said it's the only good program, never even suggested it. And just because some people in AA do say that doesn't make the 9 steps that focus on changing your fucked up way of thinking and acting total bullshit. The fact of the matter is that addicts and alcoholics do fucked up shit, and have fucked up thoughts, and steps 4-12 provide a pretty damn simple way of realizing and fixing those fucked up thoughts and behaviors, as well as figuring out the events in your life that caused many of your fears and defects. (in step 7 where you pray to have god remove these defects, I found that useful only because I am now aware of my defects and consciously avoid them - I have no illusion about the fact that I'm doing that, not god - but then again my higher power basically is higher thinking so technically it is my god removing those defects but now it's just getting "stupid" in your opinion since thats different then what bill w saw it as 80 years ago even though it's still incredibly effective for me regardless of the fact that it might not be for everyone.) There's also the part where scientific studies have shown prayer to have a physical effect on your body, but thats a whole other discussion...

Obviously it worked for you, but that still doesn't change the fact that it's not really following AA. I think that's a big reason you're getting such slack in here and one of the reasons AA gets so much slack in general.

Trust me, if I had a day of sobriety for every newcomer I've seen scared away by all the god talk I'd have 20 years sober. I get where you guys are coming from. The only thing I'm trying to argue is that A) it can be incredibly effective if you stop focusing on what you don't like and focus on what you do like, B) not everyone in AA is the same, and nobody speaks for the program as a whole - period, C) there are no requirements besides a desire to stop drinking - which means taking what you like and leaving the rest specifically has NOTHING to do with whether or not you are working the program, so tailoring it to your own needs is not stupid but actually pretty fucking smart, D) looking at your fears, resentments, your character defects, and your fucked up ways of thinking are the biggest parts of the steps - are those not all pretty negative aspects of oneself that could potentially cause relapse?

Well that's your opinion, I just still think it makes more sense to find a recovery program that you can be fully behind than to try to pick and choose what you get out of a flawed one.

And AGAIN - Never did I say that AA is better then anything else, I'm simply saying that just because you had a bad experience doesn't mean that everyone will, and just because you don't like ABC doesn't mean that DEF can't be really helpful, and doesn't mean you should ignore all of it based on one part.

You go to a restaurant, and you see a milkshake on the menu. Maybe half the menu is filled with deserts and goodies that have milk in them. You are lactose intolerant - so what do you do? You either order from the other half of the menu, or you politely leave and find somewhere else to eat. Likewise, if you go to a meeting, and you're spiritually intolerant, you either utilize the other half of the program or your find another way to stay sober...

Except for the fact someone doesn't choose to be lactose intolerant. They very well still might wish they could eat dairy. Someone chooses what their spiritual and religious beliefs are.

It's really that simple and I couldn't care any less then I already do about which choice somebody makes. You want to find a different way to stay sober thats fucking great! I'm stoked for you because quite frankly I KNOW that only 5% of us will make it, and the percentage doesn't change between different methods of recovery - so basically you either work a program or you don't, and you either stay sober or you don't - I don't care and I don't want anyone to work AA just because I said it works for me(along with a bunch of other shit I do) despite being an atheist -

Fair enough, but...

I simply don't want people to say the entire menu is bullshit because they are lactose intolerant, so to speak...

I think you still don't get the point that me and others are trying to make. Like I've said I view the whole AA recovery program flawed to the very core so for me that means the whole menu is going in the trash. Even if you take out the religious aspect out of the program, I'll never agree with a program that convinces people they have a disease that they'll never be rid of, and are totally powerless over a substance. I mean seriously how the fuck is that supposed to be helpful to someone? I would much likelier be in support of a voluntary religious program that taught that people had the choice to drink or not and that they didn't have to be alcoholics their entire lives.

edit- I realized that where I said "why do you care so much?" You could ask me the same question - so I'll answer it preemptively. I only care, and I'm only still responding to this, honestly because you are insulting me by saying the way I stay sober is stupid.

I haven't meant anything I said to be a personal attack on you or how you're staying sober, that's not the type of person I am. But you seem to be taking any sort of criticism on AA extremely personal, and not really addressing some of the main arguments people have made against it. I can kind of understand because I've been there myself with topics I felt strongly about. But with that said, if I disagree with something I'm not one to hold back.

It's more then just staying sober for me, It's totally changed me as a person from a selfish piece of shit into a productive, honest member of society, and you are saying that it won't work for the vast majority of people because it didn't work for you.You are saying that it does nothing but make people feel MORe like inferior pieces of shit, when I see hundreds of people every week who are happy and talk about being happy not just for the first time since getting sober, for the first time IN THEIR LIVES. I am currently the closest thing to "happy" I have ever been, since I can remember, since being a little kid - And it's because I've had the same fucked up way of thinking since I was a little kid and I'm finely taking action to address those defects. THAT is the entire point of the steps, not god. The god part is a formality of the era in which this was created, in my opinion. Subtract god (like it says you can do, since it's all SUGGESTIONS) and you're left with a pretty damn good method for changing your way of thinking and acting. That is all. If you have another way to stay sober, or another way to change your fucked up way of thinking and acting, OR if you don't believe the way you think and act is/ever was fucked up, all of those things are GREAT FOR YOU! Legitimately, that is not sarcasm I think thats GREAT!!!! Why can't you be stoked on something working for me or others in AA just because something different works for you and this isn't for you?

I think I pretty much covered all the points you brought up so I don't really see a need to keep rehashing the same things over and over. Bottom line is if it worked for you then yes that's great. I never was trying to say that it wasn't. I was just giving what my thoughts on a non-personal level about AA as an organization are as a whole. Some people are going to agree, some aren't. That's just life.

 

[w01fg4ng]

I've never been to AA.

I think this is all you needed to say in this thread.

 

[thedawn]

i think case face should just go about his thing that works so very well for him personally.
maybe even ignore this thread since what you have been posting is directly insulting to my intelligence.

and all the big words and exclamation points etc.just calm down.you can not convince nns or myself or others that thinks with stuff like that.

God the word and stories of being saved by God and chapters like "we agnostics" which is a trap if you're weak and fragile
are very,very bad for AA and it's legitimacy among thinking people.
it's obvious to me that God doesn't need that kind of exposure and AA isn't helping God's cause.

it is a almost a fact that they indoctrinate you into their way of thinking which you are
not supposed to question if you don't want to die from alcoholism.

at an sf meeting that particular meeting turned into god vs spirituality argument which they argue all the time
and it's very important to them,individuals claim they "know"all the time.
bottom-line from the argument was that "WHY ISNT A SPIRITUAL QUESTION".
one person disagreed.
he was court ordered.

at that moment i realized that this isn't right.

i think being calm and listening to music or DVD;s can be just as comforting as an AA meeting.
AA meetings have started to upset me to the point of wanting to "fight"them.

 

[thedawn]

I think this is all you needed to say in this thread.

i think u can have your opinions on AA regardless if u drink or not.

the points the poster are pointing out are very helpful and should not be ignored by a single sentence.

 

[w01fg4ng]

the points the poster are pointing out are very helpful and should not be ignored by a single sentence.

I read the posts and I know nns has already made up mind about AA. His views and attitude are EXACTLY they type of people that I see as hypocrites at an AA meeting (getting back to the OP).

For example NNS Says, "Ok, but at that point you ARE NOT following the program the way it was intended to be. ". This type of attitude is EXACTLY the attitude of AA members I stay away from!!!

NNS makes AA sound like we are in 1950's circus. Like dude, they don't eat bat's heads and shit. It's normal now.

 

[thedawn]

Lol.

gotta get some sleep.

 

[nuttynutskin]

i think u can have your opinions on AA regardless if u drink or not.

the points the poster are pointing out are very helpful and should not be ignored by a single sentence.

Yeah really... It's like saying you've never been to the moon so you know nothing about astronomy and have no right to comment on it.

I read the posts and I know nns has already made up mind about AA. His views and attitude are EXACTLY they type of people that I see as hypocrites at an AA meeting (getting back to the OP).

So I'm a hypocrite if I go there and I'm a hypocrite if I don't? Damned if I do damned if I don't I guess lol. Maybe you'd like to enlighten me tho on how I'm a hypocrite for thinking that if you're going to follow the program or any program really, you should at least follow it how it was meant to be followed? Or you could just keep drinking the Kool-Aid and insulting anyone who says anything bad about your precious AA without actually addressing any of the valid points people have made against it.

For example NNS Says, "Ok, but at that point you ARE NOT following the program the way it was intended to be. ". This type of attitude is EXACTLY the attitude of AA members I stay away from!!!

So again, what??? You don't want to be around members that follow the program correctly??? Why the fuck would you want to be in the program in the first place then??? I'm starting to think that I was right and most AA members just act like brainwashed parrots. ZOMG someone has an unfavorable opinion on AA!!! They're stupid!!! 8)

NNS makes AA sound like we are in 1950's circus. Like dude, they don't eat bat's heads and shit. It's normal now.

Well I must say that if I ever feel like my drinking is out of control again you've definitely made a good argument for me to want to go attend a meeting. 8)

 

[thedawn]

in regards to AA being stuck in the 50s and eating bat heads….
the poster claims that this isn't happening anymore and IT"S NORMAL NOW.

well,IMO the bat heads are still definitely there and very visible too.
they talk a lot of shit.
they say things i strongly disagree with and are ignorant towards newcomers views of life outside of their alcoholism.
like a newcomer(someone in AA with 6 hours clean)is an artist of some kind.maybe a painter.maybe even famous,just not in AA
since they don't seem especially acknowledgeable in any art fields.
if you mention Charles Bukowski in an AA meeting they normally don't know who that is.

AA should take into consideration that we aren't JUST addicts and alcoholics.
before that shit wrecked our lives some of us had good things like writing going for us like writing short stories.
AA seems to think it's necessary to ERASE the old you and CHANGE almost everything in your life.
i don't think it;s that simple.

maybe for some people they should drink instead and they will b better off that way.
AA can really get u down.
you come into your first meeting scared shitless and THE SOLUTION is hanging on a poster on the wall.

say u're catholic and was raped by your catholic dad over 10 years.fucked up the ass…u get my point.
AA's solution is God and God almost only to really bottom-line it.
step1 is the powerless and unmanageable one.
easy to relate to for most and the way in the door.
then it gets tricky.cuz right after,in step 2 you are "suggested"(gently commanded)that ONLY a higher power
can save your miserable life.

AA,to seem like they're not religious in the God sense,came up with a solution.
spirituality.
sounds much better for street gangsters court ordered there.
in reality,they mean GOD,don't get fooled.

fuck,i have a hard time sleeping tonight and I'm online smoking cigs.

edit:nuttynutskin,did u get my PM reply?
my computer shut down and i never saw if it got through.

 

[w01fg4ng]

Yeah really... It's like saying you've never been to the moon so you know nothing about astronomy and have no right to comment on it.

You have all the right to comment on the moon, but if you start telling me what it FEELS like to be there, I'm gonna call bullshit on YOU.

So I'm a hypocrite if I go there and I'm a hypocrite if I don't? Damned if I do damned if I don't I guess lol. Maybe you'd like to enlighten me tho on how I'm a hypocrite for thinking that if you're going to follow the program or any program really, you should at least follow it how it was meant to be followed? Or you could just keep drinking the Kool-Aid and insulting anyone who says anything bad about your precious AA without actually addressing any of the valid points people have made against it.

You are a hypocrite for telling us all what the AA program is suppose to be like and what it IS like, and you yourself have never been. That's called hypocrisy.

So again, what??? You don't want to be around members that follow the program correctly??? Why the fuck would you want to be in the program in the first place then??? I'm starting to think that I was right and most AA members just act like brainwashed parrots. ZOMG someone has an unfavorable opinion on AA!!! They're stupid!!! 8)

You aren't a member. And no, I wouldn't hang around you if you were.

Well I must say that if I ever feel like my drinking is out of control again you've definitely made a good argument for me to want to go attend a meeting. 8)

It's not just about you. It's about your parents, your siblings, you children, your friends and your community.

 

[RedLeader]

AA/NA isn't for me, but I don't have a problem with another person recovering through it. It has a lot of success stories. The thing I've noticed, though, is that the majority of AA/NA loyals (not including people here, just from the meetings I've attended) are so quick to tell you that it is necessary to recover, that you "cannot do it alone" or "will die if you don't go to meetings." I don't have a problem with people recovering through AA/NA, but what exactly is it about the fellowship that makes its attendees have problems with people recovering without it? This self-righteousness is what drives me insane. Meetings have lots of wisdom and acceptance/compassion/love, and it's a good skill to learn how to separate the value from the bullshit in anything in life. Unfortunately, though, I have extremely high standards for myself and my life these days, which include no bullshit at all.

I also have a huge issue with the court systems mandating AA/NA, but that's another thread.

 

[thedawn]

it's like,stupid is almost positive.whats worse,stupid or God is a F.

IMO u don't need to be in AA at all if u don't feel like it.
more listen to your heart and soul kinda thing.

when someone is and alc/addict everyone around will pay the price.
they will hurt.
they will say things that comes out wrong.
but u pay the price too since u'r life is likely shit.

recovery for me now is more like whatever comes my way,fine,u feel that"imsorry,AA,SMART,walking
through the city since i have fuck all to do on weekends.
if i see a meeting i might drop by(actually no,fuck AA),i meant a meeting that makes sense to you.
could b AA.
im not you.

i think something,i don't know what,should get better.vague,yeah,but I'm fucking depressed all the time
and meds don't work on me,can't smoke weed for at least a month(IM PRO WEED).

i have a son.
i had a son.whatever.
AA might want to change their marketing tactics which are kinda HIDDEN.

but definitely there.
look around,whats on that sheet of paper…oh yeah,AA at 8.
"AA at least i can trust,they mean well etc"if u walk around in a haze like so many do
u will eventually find your ass in that fucking program.
if u drink,heroin,doesn't matter.
AA even fights about if drug users should be ALLOWED in AA.
hey AA,bigger picture,please.

does it really matter if you slammed fucking dope and happened to kill someone in an accident
or if u;r a 19 year old anorexic.you're in fucking pain and need support from well meaning people.