The Big & Dandy Oral DMT thread (Ayahuasca/Pharmahuasca)

[rickolasnice]

Is it impossible for DMT to be active orally?

Even if you eat a huge dose?

 

[Ismene]

I think I heard someone went as high as a gram of DMT with no MAOI and had no effects.

 

[Transform]

Metabolism and disposition of DMT and harmala alkaloids after oral administration of ayahuasca.

Ayahuasca is an Amazonian psychotropic plant tea obtained from Banisteriopsis caapi, which contains β-carboline alkaloids, chiefly harmine, harmaline and tetrahydroharmine. The tea usually incorporates the leaves of Psychotria viridis or Diplopterys cabrerana, which are rich in DMT, a psychedelic 5-HT2A/1A/2C agonist. The β-carbolines reversibly inhibit monoamine-oxidase (MAO), effectively preventing oxidative deamination of the orally labile DMT and allowing its absorption and access to the central nervous system.

Despite increased use of the tea worldwide, the metabolism and excretion of DMT and the β-carbolines has not been studied systematically in humans following ingestion of ayahuasca. In the present work, we used an analytical method involving high performance liquid chromatography (HPLC)/electrospray ionization (ESI)/selected reaction monitoring (SRM)/tandem mass spectrometry(MS/MS) to characterize the metabolism and disposition of ayahuasca alkaloids in humans.

Twenty-four-hour urine samples were obtained from 10 healthy male volunteers following administration of an oral dose of encapsulated freeze-dried ayahuasca (1.0 mg DMT/kg body weight). Results showed that less than 1% of the administered DMT dose was excreted unchanged. Around 50% was recovered as indole-3-acetic acid but also as DMT-N-oxide (10% ) and other MAO-independent compounds. Recovery of DMT plus metabolites reached 68%. Harmol, harmalol, and tetrahydroharmol conjugates were abundant in urine. However, recoveries of each harmala alkaloid plus its O-demethylated metabolite varied greatly between 9 and 65%. The present results show the existence in humans of alternative metabolic routes for DMT other than biotransformation by MAO. Also that O-demethylation plus conjugation is an important but probably not the only metabolic route for the harmala alkaloids in humans.

 

[Obsidius]

i've recently discovered a pure harmine isolate in HCl form. how much pure harmine is suggested for making a normal dose of dmt orally active (60-80mg DMT, i dont weight that much)?
and will nausea be expected of the pure harmine over its natural source (caapi, rue seeds)?

 

[freehugs]

i've recently discovered a pure harmine isolate in HCl form. how much pure harmine is suggested for making a normal dose of dmt orally active (60-80mg DMT, i dont weight that much)?
and will nausea be expected of the pure harmine over its natural source (caapi, rue seeds)?

DMT and other psychedelics bind to the same receptors that get activated when you eat rotten/poisonous food, so nausea can be expected with any drug that effects the serotonin system.

 

[kidklmx]

150-250mg or so. Not sure about to nausea but I don't think it should be a problem, maybe less than caapi brews even? You'll probably feel just some rumbling in your belly I suppose

 

[johannes kreisler]

hi boys&girls: so pharmahuasca is finally on my list. I've done ayahuasca and wouldn't want to do that again...smoked a lot of DMT with and without MAOi but never bothered taking it orally.

the MAOi-part is clear. but what about the DMT-dose for an experienced tripper? I've heard dose suggestions ranging from 50-150mg. 8( I'd aim for a ++/+++.
also is it possible/worthwhile to redose DMT?

btw: one reason for my interest in this psychoactive combo is that I want to introduce my parents to the world of psychedelics. I feel it's time. MDMA/6-apb would be my first choice but I'm not sure about their cardiac stability, so I'll skip that. mushrooms is another choice but in comparison DMT is clearer, more loving, superior ime. I'd usually go for smoked DMT with MAOi for brevity and controllability but all of that smoking-routine would be a little too much I guess..
...of course I want to make a few experiences for myself before guiding someone else into that territory.

 

[edge2054]

If you redose you'll want to redose the MAOI too. This is essentially what is done with aya brews (they'll redose until the subject gets deep enough).

The dose range really does vary that much. In my personal experience this depends a lot on mindset (how willing you are to let it work it's magic) but I'm sure there's a lot of other factors involved as well (diet , stomach contents, personal biology, etc.). You'll have to start them and yourself low and work up, there's really not much way around that if you don't want to risk an overwhelming experience. Even with mushrooms you'd have this issue (though redosing would be a bit easier).

 

[Reverend Random]

Well, not sure if this is an answer to your question, but I think that giving your folks pharmahuasca outside of any sort of ritual context is not my idea of a solid plan. I would personally stick to something that eases them into the experience a bit more, especially with well researched substances such as MDMA, 2C-B or even mushrooms. If you said yourself that you won't be doing ayahuasca again, what makes you think that pharmacuasca is any different?

 

[johannes kreisler]

...probably because I developed a lot of trust in DMT [my favorite substance hands down] and thought pharmahuasca is the most convenient and "down to earth" way to consume it. I guess there aren't as many side effects as with aya?! (well, I should simply try it for myself..)
or I convince them to vape it. 8)
btw: don't worry. I'm a master in creating good settings and push sets into the right direction/guide people into unknown territory. it's one of my professional options tbh (psycholytic therapy). if I don't feel absolutely safe about a setup, I won't proceed.

MDMA might be too hard on the heart (but I'll think about it), pure 2c-b is unavailable to me (only pills) and mushrooms are too much of a rollercoaster ime.

another option is 4-aco-dmt. I always felt it's a little too sedating but might be good for the old ones...

 

[Reverend Random]

Gotcha. Psycholytic therapy eh? Well, Austria is close enough to Switzerland... Or is anything going on in Austria that I'm not aware of? Just professionally curious.

I get your points regarding pharmahuasca, by the way. I'm just not sure if there are less side effects (I am assuming you are talking physical stuff such as vomiting?). Especially if you take Peganum harmala as a MAOi > well known to cause nausea.

My hesitation consists in the fact that pharmahuasca is, well, immediately into the deep end. Normally I'd advise people to wade a bit in the kiddy bath and to get used to the water temperature first.

One last question: why would you fear that MDMA is too hard on the heart? It's not that stimulating is it? Or do they have a pre-existing heart condition? I'm very interested in this, because I've been trying to get my old folks one psychedelic or the other as well.

 

[Spacemonkey5000]

So pharma/aya huh...

Yeah so this oral dmt thing is probably the best overall drug experience you can have imo, although i havent tried iboga or the other various forms of dmt analogs like bufotenin 5meo etc...

About the differences i think pharmahuasca is a clearer dmt like experience whereas ayahuasca with enough vine is more of the healing jungle trip that people talk about, then there is rue brews with dmt which i guess can be called pharma also but is alot different than pure harmalas.

I def prefer a caapi only brew with 100mg dmt per 50g caapi, i usually take one shot wait one hour and then take one more.

Usually this ends up in a 2-3hour long breakthrough kind of thing but alot different and smoking dmt because of the caapi.


With pharma my max dose was 300mg crude harmalas with total of 170mg dmt, i took the harmalas and then 80mg dmt after 30mins.

This created the most blissful state imaginable with a angel flying in the skies, but something within me just said "take moar!"

So i acted quickly and ate another 90mg in an opened cap, this hit me within minutes and produced a 3hour long ego death kind of experience with alot of the time having me tune in to this alien signal that the earth is getting contaced by, very weird shit.


So all in all just do this and forget about these crappy new rc crap, sure some of them is a novel trip but this is the raw food type of deal, like eat your vegetables man and forget that crappy fast food.




PS: Honorable mention goes out to mushrooms + harmalas, esp caapi tea.

If you wanna see what aya is about but your afraid to get to far to quick, try taking 25g of caapi vine with your half regular shroom dose, its a blissful journey my fellow travelers, it has the best of both worlds, the visdom of the jungle and the lucidity and humor of the funghi.


One of my best trips ever was low dose cacti, low dose caapi and low doses of liberty caps with a few fresh cubes i had not more than 15g fresh or so.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

Hi, I hope the admin doesn't take this out again if I talk about Ayahuasca. Strange, everybody is allowed to talk about it except me. Maybe they just hate me. All I wanted is to share my Ayahuasca experience.

As you were told, different forums on here have different rules. You can view the guidelines for each forum, there is a link at the top of the main page in each forum. Sober Living is more strict than many of the other forums. You were also promoting your YouTube channel repeatedly. No one hates you . I agree that ayahuasca can be beneficial to some people, it has certainly helped me, but I don't think it's appropriate for Sober Living to tell people to do ayahuasca when they weren't even asking about it and to suggest that they just make some themselves at home if they can't afford to do it under the supervision of someone experienced. Please send me or one of the other Sober Living mods a private message if you have any questions.

 

[developingcolor]

Hey guys, I have 6g of syrian rue seeds and 10g of mimosa. I'm planning on taking this with my cousin and splitting the dose into 3g of rue each and 5g of mimosa each. This is going to the first experience either of us have had with oral DMT. We've never taken any pharmahuasca or ayahuasca before. Is 5g of mimosa too much of a starting dose for us?

 

[Ayahuascero]

Hi Developingcolor.
Yes 5 g of mimosa for first timers is far to much.
If you are talking about powdered Syrian Rue and Mimosa taking in capsules it is actually not called Pharmahuasca.
Pharmahuasca is using pure DMT in milligrams. I never tried to extract any DMT, seems to me it is a lot of work.
So what you are planing to do is the easiest way to take Ayahuasca as far as I know.
You don’t need to spend long, messy hours brewing this stuff.
You need only one fifth of mimosa then you would use for the brew.
You don’t need to drink the awful tea.
And even the vomiting stopped after the first session I have done in this way. Plus, it clearly did its job!

So here is my suggestion for first timers:
Grind the Syrian Rue seeds with a cafe grinder as small as possible.
Fill up several capsules with the powder.
Fill up more capsules with mimosa powder.
If you use 00 capsules it can contain about 0.75 g seeds and 0.5 g mimosa powder.
If you are medium size like me (75kg) then you may take for the first time 2g ( 3 capsules) seeds.
Wait 30 min then take 1 g ( 2 capsules ) mimosa. If you don’t feel anything after 30 min, take another 2 capsules. If you don’t feel anything after another 30 min, take another 2 capsules and so on.
In case you have to take much mimosa, you may want to increase the seeds next time as well.
I usually take 2g seeds and 2 g mimosa, but I took up to 3g seeds and 4g mimosa. I have heard of others who took up to 25 g mimosa! Well to me that sounds really crazy but it shows that you can hardly overdose on Ayahuasca.
If you are small, start with only 1 g each.

 

[Spacemonkey5000]

Hi Developingcolor.
Yes 5 g of mimosa for first timers is far to much.
If you are talking about powdered Syrian Rue and Mimosa taking in capsules it is actually not called Pharmahuasca.
Pharmahuasca is using pure DMT in milligrams. I never tried to extract any DMT, seems to me it is a lot of work.
So what you are planing to do is the easiest way to take Ayahuasca as far as I know.
You don’t need to spend long, messy hours brewing this stuff.
You need only one fifth of mimosa then you would use for the brew.
You don’t need to drink the awful tea.
And even the vomiting stopped after the first session I have done in this way. Plus, it clearly did its job!

So here is my suggestion for first timers:
Grind the Syrian Rue seeds with a cafe grinder as small as possible.
Fill up several capsules with the powder.
Fill up more capsules with mimosa powder.
If you use 00 capsules it can contain about 0.75 g seeds and 0.5 g mimosa powder.
If you are medium size like me (75kg) then you may take for the first time 2g ( 3 capsules) seeds.
Wait 30 min then take 1 g ( 2 capsules ) mimosa. If you don’t feel anything after 30 min, take another 2 capsules. If you don’t feel anything after another 30 min, take another 2 capsules and so on.
In case you have to take much mimosa, you may want to increase the seeds next time as well.
I usually take 2g seeds and 2 g mimosa, but I took up to 3g seeds and 4g mimosa. I have heard of others who took up to 25 g mimosa! Well to me that sounds really crazy but it shows that you can hardly overdose on Ayahuasca.
If you are small, start with only 1 g each.

Um i would not try to ingest mimosa powder at any cost, the tannins will shread your guts and you will have a very bad time.

 

[developingcolor]

You don’t need to spend long, messy hours brewing this stuff.
You need only one fifth of mimosa then you would use for the brew.
You don’t need to drink the awful tea.
And even the vomiting stopped after the first session I have done in this way. Plus, it clearly did its job!

So here is my suggestion for first timers:
Grind the Syrian Rue seeds with a cafe grinder as small as possible.
Fill up several capsules with the powder.
Fill up more capsules with mimosa powder.
If you use 00 capsules it can contain about 0.75 g seeds and 0.5 g mimosa powder.
If you are medium size like me (75kg) then you may take for the first time 2g ( 3 capsules) seeds.
Wait 30 min then take 1 g ( 2 capsules ) mimosa. If you don’t feel anything after 30 min, take another 2 capsules. If you don’t feel anything after another 30 min, take another 2 capsules and so on.
In case you have to take much mimosa, you may want to increase the seeds next time as well.
I usually take 2g seeds and 2 g mimosa, but I took up to 3g seeds and 4g mimosa. I have heard of others who took up to 25 g mimosa! Well to me that sounds really crazy but it shows that you can hardly overdose on Ayahuasca.
If you are small, start with only 1 g each.

I thought you had to boil the mimosa and filter it a few times? That's what I was planning on doing. It's a good thing you warned me about not taking all 5g at once. That's what my cousin and I were going to do. I definitely don't want to take too much and have an overly intense experience seeing as this is my first foray into the world of ayahuasca

Um i would not try to ingest mimosa powder at any cost, the tannins will shread your guts and you will have a very bad time.

Should i boil and filter the mimosa a few times? That's what i thought you were supposed to do.

 

[Ayahuascero]

Boiling and filtering the Mimosa is the common way to make Ayahuasca. But then you need about 10 g for each person.
In fact I boiled the first time 30g and consumed 20g, I got dizzy and purged as expected. But was not really doing its job.
Thats when I did more research and found out that there are people who take the powder in capsules. I have done 10 sessions during the last 20 days and it is much easier and effective to me. I only purged in 2 sessions. My Girlfriend takes it as well the same way. We both had incredible spiritual breakthroughs.
The spirits told us also what we have to do to grow spiritually. Starting at the physical level I stopped drinking cafe and eat even more healthy food. Then the incredible energie work they do to as. And all the spiritual realizations. And above all the mighty transformations.
Will tell you more about next time.
For now, you may want to try the brew first if you feel saver with it. But you need to have at least 30g for both of you.
Ahm, about the tannins will shred your guts, that is the first time I have heard about it. I have read about 5 reports of people doing the powder capsule from different people. Some do only 1g, others do up to 25g! And this 25g guy was studying shamanism. I dont understand how he survived it, but more over he didn't even feel nausea. I would probably die with that dose. even 3g can be to much for me if I didn't eat the last 8hours. So nobody mentioned anything about shredding the guts. They all do great with it. However I will do more research regarding this or maybe spacemonky can tell as more about it.
However you do it, make sure to follow all the rules and treat it with respect. this is not a party drug, it is supposed to help you to go the spiritual way. The more research you do the better prepared you are.
Dont eat anything for at least 3 hours, but much better 6 to 8 hours. drinking water is ok.

 

[Spacemonkey5000]

Boiling and filtering the Mimosa is the common way to make Ayahuasca. But then you need about 10 g for each person.
In fact I boiled the first time 30g and consumed 20g, I got dizzy and purged as expected. But was not really doing its job.
Thats when I did more research and found out that there are people who take the powder in capsules. I have done 10 sessions during the last 20 days and it is much easier and effective to me. I only purged in 2 sessions. My Girlfriend takes it as well the same way. We both had incredible spiritual breakthroughs.
The spirits told us also what we have to do to grow spiritually. Starting at the physical level I stopped drinking cafe and eat even more healthy food. Then the incredible energie work they do to as. And all the spiritual realizations. And above all the mighty transformations.
Will tell you more about next time.
For now, you may want to try the brew first if you feel saver with it. But you need to have at least 30g for both of you.
Ahm, about the tannins will shred your guts, that is the first time I have heard about it. I have read about 5 reports of people doing the powder capsule from different people. Some do only 1g, others do up to 25g! And this 25g guy was studying shamanism. I dont understand how he survived it, but more over he didn't even feel nausea. I would probably die with that dose. even 3g can be to much for me if I didn't eat the last 8hours. So nobody mentioned anything about shredding the guts. They all do great with it. However I will do more research regarding this or maybe spacemonky can tell as more about it.
However you do it, make sure to follow all the rules and treat it with respect. this is not a party drug, it is supposed to help you to go the spiritual way. The more research you do the better prepared you are.
Dont eat anything for at least 3 hours, but much better 6 to 8 hours. drinking water is ok.

You make some valid points for sure but also some very inacurate statements as far as what most have experienced,

First of, 5g of high quality mhrb can contain up to 100mg dmt, also for some reason alot of people get stronger effects from drinking mimosa juice than extracted dmt.

Ive had pharma trips up to 200mg but 5g mimosa with 3g rue was not much weaker, i would start with 3g mhrb tops.

Also when brewing mimosa make sure you do it seperately from the caapi or rue, 3x1 hour is enough to get it all out, alot of water and a teaspoon of vinegar per boil.

Then when you are finished and have reduced the brew keep it in the fridge for 12hours before consuming, a thick sediment will appear in the bottom, dont drink this, its all tannins, but you can use it on skin rashes etc.

 

[Transform]

I have done 10 sessions during the last 20 days and it is much easier and effective to me. I only purged in 2 sessions.

Can I just point out that it is probably unhealthy to trip quite so often. I am not sure how you could properly integrate such powerful experiences when you are tripping 50% of the time.