Shrooms00087
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Aug 4, 2008
- Messages
- 3,282
Heh. What if this was turned around unto you?
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P&S Moderators: JackARoe | Cheshire_Kat
Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc: Religion
- Thread starter rickolasnice
- Start date
Heh. What if this was turned around unto you?
lol oh don't worry, if anything you raised the standard and you simply summarized what this entire thread should be about... religion isn't about evidence or hard facts. I don't have to prove anything because it has already been proven to me, and I feel very blessed to have that gift.
I can only hope the original poster doesn't always look at religion with such negative scrutiny. I do hope all will see faith for what it is really is all about, no matter what that faith in higher power may be. Because what you have faith for in life will be most important.
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rickolasnice
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2007
- Messages
- 6,810
There isn't enough evidence for me to believe he existed.. He exists only in story books.
Oh right, faith. Sorry but no.. That's bullshit. If a man come to you tomorrow, claiming to have spoken to God, saying God is not happy with the way America is going and handed you a list of high profile people within the government that God wanted killed.. would you think he was crazy, wrong or would you join the fight? What if a man appeared claiming to be Gods second son? You heard he's done miracles but have never seen them. Would you follow his words? What if you did see a man do amazing things you couldn't explain? But someone else came along and explained them in a more logical, rational manner than *THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE HE MUST BE SON OF GOD!*
Where would your faith be, then?
And no.. there were parts of my post that hadn't been discussed before and was a direct reply to your previous post. Every other point brought up in the thread I have tried to directly reply to.. without much rebuttal.
Some muslims have faith that they will go to Jannah if they blow themselves up, trying to kill other people in the process. In your opinion, is that worthwhile?
What a ridiculous scenario. I already said most Christians are against capital punishment. God would not justify us killing someone unless our life was at direct threat. The Church is strongly against killing anyone for even the most horrible reasons.
Again, another silly scenario since it has already been laid out what to look for when the Son of God returns.
Luke 21 The Coming of the Son of Man said:
The end times (apocalypse) is when God will make his all powerful presence known again. I said this in another thread, but the part in the Bible that says "People will die in fright and anticipation of what is coming upon the world, for the powers of Heaven will be shaken" leads me to believe we wouldn't be able to handle God's overwhelming omnipotent presence constantly, since we are not God. And he doesn't want us to be robots that are forced to do what he wants for us.
Imo an ignorant and childish comment that is. Islam is actually a very peaceful religion, please hear me out, but it is tragically the least understood and victimized by hardcore extremists. The Quran specifically prohibits the killing of innocent people. Chapter 5:32 of the Quran states, "We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one is to kill a person - unless it be for murder or for criminal acts - it would be as if he kills the whole people; and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people."
The Quran repeatedly emphasizes that defensive war, fighting to protect oneself against invading enemies, is the only kind of combat sanctioned (2:190). In numerous other examples, it teaches that the use of force should be a last resort (2:192, 4:90); that normal relations between peoples, nations and states, whether Muslim or not, should be peaceful (49:13). God's objective in creating the human race with different communities, religions, and ethnicity was that we should relate to each other peacefully along this diversity in search of truth (49:13). Muhammad, peace be upon him, had many good truths to teach, such as caring for the elderly, honoring your parents, always having honesty, and being charitable to the poor.
Similarly to the Old Testament verses, many Quran verses have been taken out of context and subjected to tragic misinterpretation and misrepresentation. Verses have been intentionally misused by some Muslims and non-Muslims alike to advance political agendas. There are many Muslims all over the world and their interpretations of the Quran are as varied as the cultures in which they live, often influenced by their histories and political environment. Muslims and their religious scholars have dealt, and are still dealing, with the important question of how much of the Quran is binding on Muslims at all times and how much of its teachings apply only to the age of the Prophet Muhammad and the particular circumstances in which he and his followers lived.
Like I said, there are extremists on both sides that take things out of context & do evil things that paint a bad picture for the rest of the group. Those "Muslims" that you claim who blow up innocent people, well I would claim they aren't actual Muslims at all, and sadly only tragic victims to the powers and influence of the devil (he's powerful at making things look "good" that aren't truthfully good at all). For example, if I killed my children because they cursed at me and I yell "God is Good!" then justified myself by referring to the Old Testament, would I be a real Christian? No. The problem is you have these 'Islamic' dictators who want expand their own political power by deliberately propping up propaganda & verses in the Quran taken out of context, and with their control over flow of information, along with the power to execute people who disobey, you have many more terrorists from that part of the region.
I don't even want to get started on how many atheist groups and movements there are that promote hate & intolerance, how many atheists have killed innocent people or done horrid things, would it be fair to classify you in the same boat simply because you are also atheist? No. So I expect you won't do the same.
As for people who have fallen into the wrong beliefs in faiths or lack there of.. What a wonderful place purgatory is - a place we can learn and see the true light of God - a place of purification. Unfortunately, I don't think many people go straight to Heaven, unless you are pure innocence, in a state of sanctifying grace, or a saint.
rickolasnice said:
rickolasnice said:
lol make up your mind. please, and honestly, for the love of God, if you want to have this debate go to a priest/pastor/religious institute and bring your questions to them, instead of reading hogwash on the internet, because on the internet you will find anything and everything that fits what you want to believe...
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^^ Actually there a lot of teachings of the Church that I don't completely want to agree on (contraception, gay marriage, having to confess to a priest), but I uphold them anyways since it's not about what I want, but what they have interpreted as God's truth. I would love to believe I can do anything I want (using intoxicating substances, masturbation, sex before marriage) without consequence. But it's not about what I want it's about what God wants for us so I fight those temptations, and surrender to His Will. Good try.
Gay marriage? since when did the church condone gay marriage? (Apart from a few, very small denominations)
Not at all mate. It was a well researched answer. There is countless verses in the NT which indicate that the OT is not to be taken literally and is imperfect. There is one verse in Matthew(Though it's repeated in Luke) which reads as if Jesus is a propenent for the OT.
Google it up if you don't believe me.
And as jesus is so keen to defy the law so many times, it's only common sense really that the verse in Matthew is not referring to the law where you beat your children, stone sexual sinners (and the rest)
do you believe that adulterers should be stoned? do you wear clothes of mixed fibers?
alasdair
No he's a Christian. He follows Jesus. Read John 8:7
And please understand, the vile, absurd rules in the corrupted OT are not to literally be taken as the "word of God". Hence the fact Jesus was constantly defying them.
Sorry for the misunderstanding, maybe I didn't word it correctly. I meant that personally I don't have hard feelings for civil marriage for gay couples (it needs some work being (re)defined in a legal context). It's their choice and we shouldn't force our beliefs on people, however when it comes to me voting I uphold the traditional definition of marriage and in a religious context I don't support gay marriage since my faith has clearly defined human sexuality should only be in the context of marriage for the procreation of children.
alasdairm said:
We have already been over the civil and ceremonial laws that Israel had enforced on their people during that time. The only laws of scripture I am bound by today are the moral laws i.e. Ten Commandments.
![:\](https://bluelight.org/xf/BL_Images/Orig_Emoji/wrygrin.gif "wry grin :\")
how convenient
alasdair
What's not always convenient is going to confession on saturdays, waking up early for church on sundays, going through my religion classes, not being able to use hard/illegal drugs anymore or jerking off, and disciplining myself to not have sex again (yes I made the mistake of having sex before marriage when I was an atheist which I have confessed and now humbly sorry for) until marriage. They are difficult emotions to persevere through, but the church teaches objective truth, and I have already learned my feelings and emotions lie to me at times, therefore I will do anything that may please our Lord and that is the only thing worthwhile to me.
^^^ No he's saying it's convenient to pick out the "nice laws" and ignore the nasty ones.
Alasdairm you need to read about the histocracy of the OT. It's barabaric verses have also been discussed in this thread. We Christians pay as much attention to "stoning sexual sinners" as jesus did:
Alasdairm you need to read about the histocracy of the OT. It's barabaric verses have also been discussed in this thread. We Christians pay as much attention to "stoning sexual sinners" as jesus did:
John 8 said:
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Did you manage it? I went 2 years without before I couldn't take it any more.
sorry, on with the rest of the discussion please
casualuser
Bluelighter
Tromps said:
In my opinion objective truth is an impossibility, science being the closest we can get but I wouldn't say it is completely objective. Even if a divine source inspired religious doctrine teaching that doctrine automatically "pollutes" it with a subjective interpretation and then it becomes further polluted with the students interpretation of those teachings. This inevitably leads to those students willing to "do anything that may please our lord" into committing (sometimes terrible) acts in the name of god. While many people interpret those teachings in a manor that does not lead to such things, I believe the ease at which it can(and has many times) be done is religions greatest flaw and is the greatest reason it should not be considered as an adequate moral guide.
You can argue(as you did briefly before) that all the horrible things committed by atheists or in the name of science(you didn't mention science) makes it no better of an option. I would argue that while there are definitely atheists that have done terrible things it is not because of their atheism. Pol pot never claimed that because there is no god we have the right to kill all of these people and while the atom bomb was created with science the reasoning behind dropping them on Japan was never attributed to scientific advancement, the same cannot be said of similar situations involving religion.
Overall while there is no certain way of determining objective moral truths I would argue there are much better ways of going about it than relying on interpretations of millennia old texts that can be quite vague and sometimes contradictory. I know you argue that Jesus rectifies a lot of those problems by saying the old laws should no longer be followed but that hasn't stopped people from ignoring that part(or the masses from not even realizing it because I would guess a great many Christians have never read the bible cover to cover).
I can follow up on this comment with an explanation of how I, as an atheist, developed my own morality, if you would like.
I have nothing wrong with science - I love science. How wonderful ability to observe & learn, science, a gift from God for us to better understand his creation and the world around us. Imo it compliments the existence of God. The denial of God's existence contradicts both science and common sense. The Big Bang theory describes the initial event as a great explosion (or expansion) which brought forth all the energy and matter in the universe. Most of those who don't believe in God say that the Big Bang was a chance event. In other words, the great explosion that brought the universe into being was a cosmic fluke. But this is an unsupportable position to take, because things just don't happen like that in science. Explosions, big or small, do not come about without someone or something causing them, cause and effect.
Take a look around, do things appear out of no where? Nope, and the belief that everything comes from nothing, is an absurd contradiction to the laws of science itself. Sure, the universe may have been a single dense point of molten hot something and then expanded, but how did that something get there, and what caused it to expand? Came from nothing? By itself? Sorry science, you're falling a bit short and according to my science teacher it takes "something" to cause "something". The only reasonable and logical conclusion is that a higher power has designed and created it ensued by the vibration & voice of God. And don't get me started on this "How did God get there or where did He come from?" Because the laws of science and physics don't apply to God. Our limitations of human intelligence in this life will never understand the true nature of God, we are not God. After this life, His light will shine upon us and it is only then that his infinite, immaculate, inconceivable knowledge and bliss will be poured upon us.
God didn't just create life. He sustains life. The Earth, its size is perfect. Earth's gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen. The moon, perfect in size and distance from the earth for the gravitational pull and effects on the ocean. The sun, we are located near the perfect distance from the sun, any farther and earth would freeze up, and any closer and we would burn. Not to mention all the other processes in biology, magnetics & kinetics, nature, the mind/body and human capabilities, it blows my mind. This universe and existence screams intelligent design all over it. Science, physics, biology, psychology, philosophy, you name it, those are all the echo of God. If you believe in that many trillions of possibilities, coincidences, and chances that somehow came together perfectly and here we are; then surely you would be foolish to not also consider the possibility of God and Intelligent Design.
I love God, Jesus is my King, nothing can or ever will pull me away from that. All I can say on judgement day is I Trust In Jesus. Even if I am cast into the fires of hell, my love for the Lord will not be diminished and I will be praising God in the depths of flame if so be it. God is an infinite source of love, wisdom, and euphoria that I so thankfully have the privilege to feel. When I meditate I like to focus on what I call the "God Awareness/Consciousness" and it is nothing but pure enlightenment & peace.
The only thing I would say to that is if people had been raised to believe in God and His judgement, were taught strong morals against the killing of human life, things might of turned out differently. But I don't like to speculate. However, what kind of morals does science teach?
This isn't directed at you specifically, more to the op, but I sometimes I wonder, what is it about atheists that they would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that they don't believe even exists? What causes them to do that? Perhaps the reason that the topic of God weighed so heavily on the mind, was because God was pressing the issue. It might be that the underlying reason atheists are bothered by people believing in God is because God is actively pursuing them. God loves You! Through all the highs - and all the lows - He will be there right beside you. He has faith in us, through after it all, we may have a glimpse of paradise and become One with the All Mighty.
But Yes, please do share your development of your own morality! The more discussion from any and all perspectives - the better!
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Pariahprose
Bluelighter
I had a quick read of posting rules and done a quick search but.. to be honest.. bluelights search function sucksNo offence.
This thread is not meant to upset or anger anybody.
..
I'd like to know how anybody can believe in any one (if any) religion. I'll focus on Christianity as I know more about it.
To be a christian, you would have to believe in the Bible. In my opinion, Jesus and has Dad came from the bible. If you believe in Jesus and his Dad then logically you must believe in the bible.
But the bible is so full of contradictions, scientific impossibilities and down right horrible things.
God would order his men (strange thing for such a powerful being, don't you think?) to murder, rape and pillage areas or towns where the peoples would not accept God as the LORD. Bare in mind it would have been a small army of people claiming to speak the words of God. Pretty horrible stuff for a God of worship? The older stuff in the bible is full of a hateful, vengeful and spiteful God..
Then a long comes Jesus, his son, who for some reason he decided to make human.. teaching messages of love and kindness.. What is it God.. make up your mind. So yeah.. God sends his Son down.. which for some reason needed a woman to become pregnant with him to achieve.. to teach gods teachings? But they're not the same as earlier on in the book. Or maybe Jesus was his rebellious fuck you dad! kinda son.
So anyway.. God decides it would be a good idea if his Son was horribly tortured and crucified.. Nice God, nice Dad, ticking all the boxes. But it was for good reason, of course! Jesus died for our sins! I mean.. what is that even supposed to mean? Does that mean I can now sin all i want because Jesus died for them? Or did he only die for the people alive at his time of death? Why would a God require a human son to die for peoples sins? Could he not have simply pardoned them? Or accepted that he gave man free will so deal with it?
I'm also interested to know what happened every body that died before Jesus started spouting about that he's the son of god. I'm pretty sure they didn't have telephones, international TV or even the internet back in them days so how was the message expected to reach every person on the planet? Or did God not give 2 shits about them and sent them to hell anyway. Do new born babies go to heaven or hell? Do they spend eternity as a new born baby?
God created man in his image. Therefore are we not all parts of God? There is nothing we can do that could possibly be seen as bad in the eyes (or whatever he says) of God. God gave man free will.. sure.. but everything we do is because of God. Or is he not as powerful as he makes out to be?
To get in to heaven, all you have to do is repent...... Unless you're gay you are going to burn in hell..
I'm pretty sure that nobody on this planet has seen to or spoken to God or Jesus personally.. so why believe in the bible? Why are you not Muslim, Jew or Hindu? Are they all wrong? Are they all going to hell? Bare in mind most of their books outdate the Bible.. So what branch of Christianity are you? Church of England? Protestant? Roman Catholic? What one is the right one? Are the wrong ones going to hell?
May I ask how you think it possible to get 2 of every animal on to a boat? We can't even do that today with bigger boats. And can you explain how the world can flood from rain? Where did the rain come from? And where did it go?
If I were to tell you that I spoke to God last night.. he came to me in my sleep.. he sat with me in my room and told me that I am the chosen one. He told me I need to find a way to kill 80% of the worlds population. He told me he would help out a bit, with natural disasters, famine, disease and war but it was my job to build a following. I must spread this message to as many people as I can.. If you don't send me 50% of your current wealth then I am to kill you, rape your wife and burn your house down.. What would the difference be between my message and the old geezers in the middle east all those years ago?
Jesus was not mentioned in historical texts for at least 100 years after the birth of Christianity. Anything written about him after that wouldn't have been able to has seen him, spoke to him or even witnessed his existence due to the fact he was dead.. and had been for a long time.
*Puts hand on forehead and shakes head from side to side* So much to answer and explain...