Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc: Religion

[panic in paradise]

Mmm, does anyone else see (mutatis mutandis) the irony here?

especially while sporting a religious avatar...


yes satanism is a religion, with its own dogmas.

 

[rickolasnice]

I don't get why you would even want to be an atheist. I mean what benefit is it to you? Say I'm wrong and you're right, ok, what do I lose? Nothing really and we will both get the same - nothingness. On the flip side, say I'm right and you're wrong, eternal life is looking pretty good for me and your possibly jeopardizing that for yourself. Really, how hard is it to simply have faith, even if you don't know? Just for the sake of your soul. It takes literally zero effort for one to simply believe in a higher power-God , contemplate the possibility of being judged for your wrongdoings and accept the possibility of life-after, zero effort, for the promises of Heaven and good things to come, it sounds like a pretty good deal, for not even having to do that much. Athiests do a better job defining who they are by what they are not, instead of what they are for.

If I believed in God and worshipped him and i was wrong.. I've wasted a massive part of my life and ME on nothing.

I don't believe in God because it makes no sense to me.. never mind my issues with the bible and the religion.. But I have NO reason to believe in THAT god. If I believed in things that made no sense I may aswell believe in anything. I may as well believe my dad is Hitler but he's a woman. If I'm wrong? Well.. I don't think I am.. I don't believe I CAN be for reasons I've been through (contradictions, impossibilities and errors that occur over and over within the bible (the only thing christrians have to learn right from wrong))

It takes zero effort? Really? I don't believe in him. I have no reason to. It would take HUGE amounts of effort to ignore myself, my beliefs, my outlook, ME. But Jesus loves me anyway.. so i should be ok right?

Different branches of christianity teach different things. They give different ways, from each other, to ways you can get in to heaven / things you should focus on being. Which one is right?

I've brought it up before.. but the bible says rape victims are guilty of the rape. If you don't think the same then you can't call yourself a christian. If you don't then you are disagreeing with God. Same with disagreement in the fable of Noahs ark. If you don't murder people that work on Sunday then you are not doing what God wants. If you don't try and convert people, fail, then kill them.. You are denying gods will.

The sake of my soul? I don't believe I have a soul. Show to me reason why I should believe I have one, or you have one, and I may change my mind.

No.. atheists don't do a better job defining who they are by what they are not, instead of what they are (for(??)).. What have i shown you the I am not? Not religious? Then I have shown you that I am an atheist / agnostic.

I'll take that perspective alasdarim, but I have to ask you "simply put this is all we got so make the most of it." what does that even mean to you? If I asked my local atheist, to them it would probably mean, do all the drugs/drinking/partying/sex you want and whatever makes you 'feel good' must be good. If that's your definition of 'getting the most out of life' no thanks been there done that, I conned myself into thinking that selfish mentality for years and it didn't get me anywhere. If that's not what you meant, I would like to know how an atheist would interpret that statement "getting the most out of life."
and people who want to take everyone else with them.

This just isn't even true. You think that every atheist only wants to take drugs, party, etc. Do what feels good? Yeah.. Within reason. It feels good for me when i help someone or make them smile. Am i wasting my time, because I don't believe in god?

Well it's a personal experience isn't it. Because you haven't had a religious experience, you're naturally going to assume it's some kind of mind trick.

How do you know I haven't had a "religious" experience?

And now who's avoiding points brought up?

I can see why religion makes little sense for people with average intelligence**. Religion, it seems, only makes sense for both the most weak and brilliant minds -- the "problem" with religion is, of course, everyone thinks he/she belongs to the latter group.

Wow. Really?.. I mean.. REALLY???

 

[rickolasnice]

I don't personally know a single person who sincerely believes that sex, drugs, and rock'n'roll make for a complete and fulfilling life experience. That's just a hyperbolic caricature cooked up by stuffy moralists and busybodies who are, in truth, far more interested in the lives other people than in their own 'spiritual' advancement. I'm an atheist, and I don't particularly care for having sex with strangers, I don't regularly take psychoactive drugs to excess, nor am I very fond of heavy metal. I also don't regularly engage in sodomy, commit murder, covet my neighbor's ass, my neighbor's wife's ass, or whatever else your commandments take issue with. I am by no means perfect, but at least I don't need a collection of Bronze Age manuscripts to inform my intuitive sense of morality..

Quoted so you read this again

Well said PA.

 

[Psyduck]

^^This was a response to Illyra.

The sub-text of the trichotomy in PART1 being that
1° there are alot of people who have never-ever questioned the written word, which I find a weakness on their part.
2° then there are people with 'average' (read: one-sided) intelligence; a scientific mind who can indeed make very little sense of miracles... and they have good reasons for this!
3° then there have been plenty of great theologians and philosophers throughout history who had a proper understanding of reality and spend all their life thinking critically on the subject-matter. Their genius and understanding surpassed far the one-sided rationalistic view so popular nowadays.

The sub-text of the overtone in PART2 being that everyone thinks his own understanding is superior to that of others, easily leading to absolutism/foundationalism.



=> It was no attack per se. I am an apatheist, but I have much respect for great religious/philosophical thinkers throughout history. I have very little respect for people who uncritically believe what they are told. And I have only an 'average' amount of respect for scientific minded people using their intellect to understand the world critically; but who fail to frame an all-encompassing view adressing the fundamental questions of human existence.

 

[rickolasnice]

People with a scientific mind can make sense of miracles. Give me an example of a miracle then i will come up with a hypothesis for it.

And no i don't think my beliefs are superior to others. If you show me how or why I'm wrong i will accept that and learn from it.

(And ye i know you post wasn't aimed at me)

 

[Psyduck]

People with a scientific mind can make sense of miracles. Give me an example of a miracle then i will come up with a hypothesis for it.

I don't intend to fall into stereotypes. Water turning into wine? The red sea splitting open for Moses? Anyone with a proper education in physics cannot take these thing seriously anymore. However, I do think, it is one-sided for a scientific minded person to discard religion per se as some malfunction of the human race because we now have a better understanding of the laws of nature.

And no i don't think my beliefs are superior to others. If you show me how or why I'm wrong i will accept that and learn from it.

Good, so will I, but many others wont as history has proven.

 

[Illyria99]

Mmm, does anyone else see (mutatis mutandis) the irony here?

 

[panic in paradise]

People with a scientific mind can make sense of miracles. Give me an example of a miracle then i will come up with a hypothesis for it.

... having an indoor rose bush that has been dried out and dead for 6+ months, that is given a bottle cap(a tbsp) worth of salt and rose oil water, and it grows and buds again with out watering it again for many more months.

 

[rickolasnice]

I don't intend to fall into stereotypes. Water turning into wine? The red sea splitting open for Moses? Anyone with a proper education in physics cannot take these thing seriously anymore. However, I do think, it is one-sided for a scientific minded person to discard religion per se as some malfunction of the human race because we now have a better understanding of the laws of nature.


Good, so will I, but many others wont as history has proven.

Show me that those things happened, outside of a book.

I don't discard religion because we have a better understanding of the world. But the bible is supposed to be gods word or whatever. The bible states things which we know to be false. Is that not a good reason to question everything else in it. Is that not a good reason to question your god?

... having an indoor rose bush that has been dried out and dead for 6+ months, that is given a bottle cap(a tbsp) worth of salt and rose oil water, and it grows and buds again with out watering it again for many more months.

It may have seemed dead. But it wasn't.. happens with plants all the time.

 

[Psyduck]

Show me that those things happened, outside of a book.

I don't discard religion because we have a better understanding of the world. But the bible is supposed to be gods word or whatever. The bible states things which we know to be false. Is that not a good reason to question everything else in it. Is that not a good reason to question your god?

Mmm, who are you adressing here? I already said that I am an apatheist. And I just offered you some doubts on literal readings of scripture...

This is not to say that religious feelings remain at the core of what it means to be a human being and one shouldn't discard them as irrational or malfunctions of psyche. I think it's just a matter to re-articulating these basic feelings in new creative ways to not lose touch with that which concerns ourselves the most.

 

[rickolasnice]

Yeah sorry fair enough.. For anyone else reading though?

Doesn't apatheism imply you don't think about religion.. or is it that you don't care? Either way you've been a big part of a 4 page thread on the subject

 

[Psyduck]

Doesn't apatheism imply you don't think about religion.. or is it that you don't care?

Apatheism, for me, is that I don't care intellectually that God exists, but I still care deeply for religiousity/spirituality on an erotic level.

Erotic here in the sense of Plato, the human Eros... the driving force of the human Soul, call it passion, the Desire for the Good, or hopes and dreams (if you don't like metaphysical language)... In all human behaviour there remains a driving force at work which moves us towards the Good... we are attracted to something Absolute we don't know... reality is never good enough, we want it better, its imperfections must be conquered, we are never satisfied with ourselves and always want further improvements... and despite all the things that go bad in the world there remains this deep belief at work in a human being that says "we never give up, fuck it, we want it better... we crave so deeply for something Absolute."

The sentence "I believe in God" for me means "I wake up in the morning and I belief today the univese is able to self-enjoy and realize its own Perfection" rather than "I believe there is somewhere an omnipotent entity which I ascribe the property of perfection."

So, regardless whether or not one is able to prove that God exists, it wont make any difference from a pragmatic POV, and I just think it's a waste of time to spend your energies finding a proof for the existence of God where you could actually be realizing the traditional attributes of God (goodness, beauty, perfection, justice, Love, forgiveness, compassion...) here on earth.

That's why I also think it's a good thing that "religious feelings" remain cultivated. When religion per se (or any relation to transcendence) is discarded, people too easily turn to nihilistic attitudes such as that of Illryas99 for example (saying "we will just be rotting flesh in wormy Earth") or they turn to one-sided scientific/rationalistic worldviews (suggesting that the only worthy way to spend our time is to solve mathematical equations and set up new experiments ad infinitum). I am not saying that atheism promotes immoral/amoral behaviour, or makes people any less good. I just highly doubt that it is able to sustain itself in the long-term when it has cut off its roots, i.e. 2000 years of Christianity breeded into society and now continuing in a secular way. What if the fuel of the car is all up?

 

[rickolasnice]

Yeah fair enough.. but those things you listed are no attributes of the christian god.

 

[rickolasnice]

That's why I also think it's a good thing that "religious feelings" remain cultivated. When religion per se (or any relation to transcendence) is discarded, people too easily turn to nihilistic attitudes such as that of Illryas99 for example (saying "we will just be rotting flesh in wormy Earth") or they turn to one-sided scientific/rationalistic worldviews (suggesting that the only worthy way to spend our time is to solve mathematical equations and set up new experiments ad infinitum). I am not saying that atheism promotes immoral/amoral behaviour, or makes people any less good. I just highly doubt that it is able to sustain itself in the long-term when it has cut off its roots, i.e. 2000 years of Christianity breeded into society and now continuing in a secular way. What if the fuel of the car is all up?

You talk about religion like it's a tool for good. Fair enough, it can be. But it's also used as a reason / excuse to kill (ie a tool for evil) and has done since it's creation.

I don't think it's true that without religion people turn nihilist. And that quote isn't exactly nihilistic.. its fact. Our bodies DO rot. What you are saying is that people that don't have religious beliefs will be nihilistic.. that just isn't the case.

And people that like to study the real world do do other things you know? It's not like they all think 'there is NOTHING else worth doing'. What about their families, their hobbies, etc..

A lot of people that believe in religion aren't good people. A lot of people that don't are. I'm not saying either group has more or less nice people.. I'm saying that being religious doesn't mean that you are a nice person. Heavily religious cultures have and do commit acts of evil to other people on the planet. All of the main religious text state over and over that people of other faiths are lesser and they even go so far as to promote murdering them, robbing them, keep their women over the age of 12 (or 14?) for themselves and destroy their homes.. Most societies that don't base their moral teaching and laws on religion tend to teach that everyone is equal, murder is always wrong, etc etc..

Why would it not be able to sustain itself? What have you based this assumption on? Religious societies have been unable to sustain itself in the past many, many times.

What do you mean what if the fuel of the car is all up?

 

[rickolasnice]

So, regardless whether or not one is able to prove that God exists, it wont make any difference from a pragmatic POV, and I just think it's a waste of time to spend your energies finding a proof for the existence of God where you could actually be realizing the traditional attributes of God (goodness, beauty, perfection, justice, Love, forgiveness, compassion...) here on earth.

What god is this? This is pretty much the exact opposite of what god is in almost all of the religions.. If you are talking about jesus.. Here's a quote from the man himself:

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."

And another:
51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.

53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

So which god are talking about, exactly?

 

[schwiftee]

Who here is a disciple of dan dennett sam harris or Richard dawkins?

 

[alasdairm]

I'll take that perspective alasdarim, but I have to ask you "simply put this is all we got so make the most of it." what does that even mean to you? If I asked my local atheist, to them it would probably mean, do all the drugs/drinking/partying/sex you want and whatever makes you 'feel good' must be good. If that's your definition of 'getting the most out of life' no thanks been there done that, I conned myself into thinking that selfish mentality for years and it didn't get me anywhere. If that's not what you meant, I would like to know how an atheist would interpret that statement "getting the most out of life."

i think the individual can decide for themselves what getting the most out of life means. for some people that may mean hedonism - just because that's not for you doesn't make them 'wrong'. for others it may mean spending a lifetime working on their mental and physical health.

there are as many answers as there are people you ask. your implication that an atheist could only be interested in drinking and drugging suggests limited thinking on your part.

alasdair

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

^May or may not be relevant that I feel most religious while drunk.

 

[Tromps]

Great book to learn some morals from

What a misinformed and misinterpreted silly little chart you have there. You can't take every word or law and look at them all the same. There are three main sets of laws in Scripture, that are not equally binding. There were Civil laws (that only applied to the people of Israel), ceremonial laws (traditions on how to worship), and there are Moral laws (Ten Commandments). Most of the literal examples people try and use today (its ok to beat your children who curse you, adulatory is punishable by death, women cant hold authority) were Civil laws of the Israelite's, they socially accepted punishment by death for those type of things. The culture and humanity at the time was so flawed. Why do you think that's when Jesus came into the world when he did, and when they asked Him about the prostitute who should be put to death He said to them "Let the one who is without sin cast the first stone" and no one put her to death, He came to preach forgiveness and to renew/redeem His people.

As an American Christian I am only bound by the Moral laws (Ten Commandments, thou shall not kill/steal etc, love others as myself) and those will never change. Why would we all be bound to Israels civil laws over 2000 years ago? It makes no sense. Your verses are prime examples of the misunderstanding people have and if you looked at the broader scope you would see how out of context those would be if you tried interpreting and applying them in literal situations today. By the way, Christ's Church today is strongly against Capital Punishment, and is very pro-life. This is why if Christians are going to follow a Church it should be the Catholic Church in my opinion. They do a decent job reinterpreting Scripture as time passes, we need to constantly reevaluate how Scripture would apply to today's world and amend things as the world changes. I'm not a Bible thumper that uses the literal word as my only source of authority, that just wouldn't be right.

As for your quote about Jesus saying he was bringing a sword and not peace during that one passage, in order to understand what He meant, we need to look at the context in which He said these words. The audience He addressed expected and anticipated the establishment of the Kingdom of God in fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies. Christ wanted His disciples to understand that it was not yet time for Him to establish the peaceful Kingdom. Instead, He warned that Christians would face hostility for living God's way of life. There were so many other worldly worshipers and pagans, it was only possible that there would have to be division from people who worshiped worldly idols; and that by following His Way he was warning the people they may be hated and face persecution before salvation, thus the division. Him bringing a sword represents the strength he carries for His people.

So, regardless whether or not one is able to prove that God exists, it wont make any difference from a pragmatic POV, and I just think it's a waste of time to spend your energies finding a proof for the existence of God where you could actually be realizing the traditional attributes of God (goodness, beauty, perfection, justice, Love, forgiveness, compassion...)

You bring up a good point. I try not to spend my time proving (to other people namely, but even myself) why God does exist, and instead focus on learning the attributes of Christ and applying them to my life.

but those things you listed are no attributes of the christian god.

Oh no? Most Christians believe Jesus was God, in his divine nature. Where do you see Jesus not showing love, compassion, forgiveness? Do you have any examples of Him not having those qualities? Because I can find a million examples where he does.

 

[Tromps]

'His Way' was not the way the people wanted. He came to bring division from earthly desires. The people were anticipating & expecting the Messiah, Jesus, to be this powerful military leader that would free them by overthrowing Rome. Instead, by teaching them to turn the other cheek and not give into temptation or violence, he freed the soul to love. Even as the people whipped, tortured, and denied Him, He still had compassion for them and pleads "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do." That is the perfect kind of love. When your child yells at you, hits you in the face, spits at you and screams 'I hate you' , but you still want them and love them, that is unconditionally perfect love.