Codeine & CWE Megathread: Version II - [insert witty title]

[Sonny Jim]

"word up" regarding paracetamol toxicity brenno

and yeah, I always have st marys thistle on hand.

The active chemicals in st marys thistle are called silymarin collectively. They really are powerful liver protective and restorative.

I'll maybe try and find some nice links about the old study they did in some hospital in europe (from memory) where an intravenous solution of silymarin (or it might have been just one of the silymarin chemicals) was used to save the lives of death cap mushroom poisoning victims.

 

[Ashley]

I am well aware of the solubility, anyway you are wrong about daily use not being harmful at even 500mg

I never said daily consumption of paracetamol or ibuprofen was harmless, just perhaps not as crazily dangerous as Sonny Jim seemed to hint at. I know how toxic paracetamol is and still shake my head at how commonly it is thrown around in medical settings.

Ash.

 

[spacejunk]

"if pain persists, see your doctor"
- heard that before? on every paracetamol preparation ever advertised?
daily paracetamol use is really bad, the stuff has a cumulative effect and is really toxic if taken regularly.

 

[88brenno]

It really isn't as dangerous as you are making it out to be.

People consume these amounts of the aforementioned OTC painkillers daily all over the world every day without any problem.

I never said daily consumption of paracetamol or ibuprofen was harmless, just perhaps not as crazily dangerous as Sonny Jim seemed to hint at. I know how toxic paracetamol is and still shake my head at how commonly it is thrown around in medical settings.

Ash.

So I can take it daily without any problem, but its not harmless?

Atleast if your going to give advice don't contradict yourself, and bump to the Milk Thistle post earlier? I really am interested if anyone here takes it and in what doses, you should if your doing a CWE on any regular basis.
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On another note I noticed sustanon is having troubles with blood in the urine, correct me if I am wrong but he was the one glorifying it earlier saying how much safer cwe ibuprofen is, whether or not it is related could be another story, interesting nonetheless.

 

[Sonny Jim]

St mary's thistle, milk thistle, (silybum marianum)
must be taken in an extracted, stadnardised form to be effective in the powerful way reported by some studies. By that I mean you shouldn't bother obtaining this herb in raw form, you need of a standardised extract(tabs or liquid etc, many brands seem to have quality milk Australia these days ).

When I say standardised, I mean standardised for silymarin (sometimes written as "flavanoligans" on the packet), so that each milligram or millilitre of extract contains a definite amount of it silymarin.

From memory the best studies a few years ago were done on about 180mg of silymarin daily. I would actually recommend that dose but it can be taken 2-3 times daily for increased benefit. You can kind of think of silymarin as a chemical force field around the liver that protects it from oxidative damage. That's how I have taken it for years and its great. I take a Mediherb brand but even the woolies brands have nice looking standardised tabs, I mean, they are standardised which is a TGA or some regulatory body thing (I think?) so they should be what they say they are.

From memory you can take too much and feel a bit nauseous and or a bit dizzy so keep that in mind and drop the dose if there's trouble, you can always just stagger the dose, i.e. one tab now, one an hour later etc

edit:
HA! it occurs to me I should add the obligatory "just because you're taking milk thistle doesn't imply the safety for a CWEer but it's good stuff non the less.

 

[spacejunk]

^ thanks sonny jim, that's some really good advice - i'm going to do some more reading but certainly put this on my shopping list.

 

[88brenno]

I have actually been dosing like this every time i CWE lately, posted on version 1 of the CWE thread;

that's very good advice regarding milk thistle Anon54

milk thistle (Silybum marianum) is a must for people doing CWEs on paracetamol/codeine tablets.

Look for tablets that have been standardised for their flavanolignin content or silymarin content. Flavanlignans and silymarin mean basically the same thing. Flavanolignan is an umbrella term for a specific group of plant metabolites of which silymarin belongs. To confuse matters further the term silymarin does not refer to a single chemical, it actually refers to a group (a complex) of flavanoligans found in the seeds of milk thistle (silybin A, silybin B, isosilybin A, isosilybin B, silychristin, isosilychristin, silydianin).

Most tablets are standardised to contain about 90mg of silymarin. It maybe be listed as being standardised for silymarin, flavanolignans or silybin content.

A dose of about 180mg silymarin is optimal. It should be taken about an hour before dosing a paracetamol CWE to allow the liver to become saturated with silymarin.

Silymarin is very powerful. It protects the liver from chemical damage and also greatly enhances the livers ability to regenerate functional, healthy tissues. There are many studies that have shown this to be true. Silymarin given intravenously has saved the lives of death cap mushroom victims. (references? just do a google search, there's a lot). I wrote an essay about it several years ago, if I find it I will post the references.

The price of good quality standardised milk thistle preparations has come down a lot in recent years. Natures Own Milk Thistle 7000 from Woolworths are dirt cheap and are good quality.
http://di1-3.shoppingshadow.com/imag...000+nature.jpg

edit:
I should add to the silymarin dosing info. 180mg one hour before ingestion of liver toxins, followed by 90mg four hours later and another 90mg four hours after that. The idea is to keep you liver saturated with silymarin. Silymarin is a powerful antioxidant and acts like a chemical force field or shield that stops toxins from damaging the liver.

A daily maintenance dose is also important and has been shown to be very effective at enhancing the livers ability to regenerate. 90-180mg twice daily should be plenty. It is a good idea to try to take it for as long as your CWE habit lasts.

Last edited by Sonny Jim; 19-01-2012 at 21:59.

My old boy and I both have bottles, both with standardised extract equivalent to dry fruit (Flavanoligins calculated as Silybin)
He uses "Swisse" which has 2.5g cant remember the mg equivalent but

I found Natures Own are 7g = 84mg, Is there any stronger brands available?
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edit: one of the first few lines: "milk thistle (Silybum marianum) is a must for people doing CWEs on paracetamol/codeine tablets." I assume sillybin...

then you said: To confuse matters further the term silymarin does not refer to a single chemical, it actually refers to a group (a complex) of flavanoligans found in the seeds of milk thistle (silybin A, silybin B, isosilybin A, isosilybin B, silychristin, isosilychristin, silydianin).

Most tablets are standardised to contain about 90mg of silymarin. It maybe be listed as being standardised for silymarin, flavanolignans or silybin content.

So does my bottle have the group flavanoligans (silymarin) even though it says silybin??? " It maybe be listed as being standardised for silymarin, flavanolignans or silybin content."

One more thing: The dosing on my bottle says 3 per day with or immediately after food, are you sure that kind of dose is necessary? I do 2 an hour b4 then one 4 hours into it after i eat.

 

[Captain Brewster]

I find that paracetamol is way to toxic to even fathom doing a CWE on para/cody tabs.

No way!, I have made one when desperate but I couldn't bring my self to drink it. Your first mistake could easily be your last with high dose made out of para/cody tabs.

paracetamol is also more soluble than ibuprofen in cold water so that is another good reason not to but neither ibu or para is actually safe in anything other than the very short term anyway.

I hear a lot if people saying less ibuprofen gets in compared to paracetamol, but the daily recommended dose for para (4000mg) is actually higher than ibuprofen (3200mg).

To me that sounds like ibuprofen would do more damage at the same dose of para (eg 500mg para vs 500mg ibu).

Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[spacejunk]

I think ibuprofen and paracetamol are toxic to different organs?
Correct me if I'm wrong but ibuprofen seems to harm the stomach more, while paracetamol damages the liver and kidneys.
Can anyone confirm this?

 

[88brenno]

Yeah your right, thats why the chemist will tell you its okay to take both at the same time.

Cpt brew it really depends how you CWE, as to if Ibuprofen is a safer option or not, I used my method on Ibuprofen a couple of times, it was just a sludgy mess and took twice as long to filter, so tempted to just squeeze it to hurry it up. I waited though, and it turned out looking milky as, im sure we all wanna get high as quickly as possible therefor ibuprofen (for me anyway) is not an option. Not to mention it gives me an upset stomach, at even 2 pills after food.

 

[pinkanga]

I always squeeze it. You will be losing so much codeine not squeezing think. Yeah itll be cloudy but if you then pour that through a coffee filter its all good.

 

[88brenno]

yeah dude i put it through a hanky first, and squeeze until my fingers get sore, being careful to cover it perfectly so no gunk gets out. (it takes about 10 minutes to dry up in the fridge and then i squeeze the hanky into two coffee filters. Then when there is VERY LITTLE water left, I squeeze the first coffee filter into the second, then wait not very long for that little bit of heaven to filter through, leaving no water in the filter I squeeze the last filter straight into the mixture **When there's nothing left in it** All squeezing must be done with care, trying to cover the sensitive (white areas) of the coffee filters by folding it over/ or find a way that works but keep in mind squeezing is bad mmkay so take care. There shouldn't be anything in the last filter really in terms of powder.

 

[pinkanga]

Ahh ok. Yeah I dont squeeze the coffee filter but if its taking too long Ill prick it with a knife. If you do it right very little cloudiness gets through. It essentially comes down to what product you used. Some are better for filtering and others seem to have more colouring in the pills.

 

[Captain Brewster]

Yeah your right, thats why the chemist will tell you its okay to take both at the same time.

Cpt brew it really depends how you CWE, as to if Ibuprofen is a safer option or not, I used my method on Ibuprofen a couple of times, it was just a sludgy mess and took twice as long to filter, so tempted to just squeeze it to hurry it up. I waited though, and it turned out looking milky as, im sure we all wanna get high as quickly as possible therefor ibuprofen (for me anyway) is not an option. Not to mention it gives me an upset stomach, at even 2 pills after food.

Yeah, I agree with you there.
I gave up on ibuprofen ages ago, I allready take somac daily for ongoing stomach problems, so staying away from anti-inflamatrys is a must for me. With my method they take forever too, just as you mentioned.

Spacejunk mentioned too about para and ibu being toxic to different ogans, I gree there too, just thought I'd mention the different daily recomended doses, maybe some people think its okay to take the same amounts off para and ibu by weight.

 

[bobbydarren]

Yeah your right, thats why the chemist will tell you its okay to take both at the same time.

Yeah it is safe to take both at the same time. so that's what i do. 20x pandadeines 15x ibuprofen+. then next dose, take the remainder of the 2 boxes. 1/2 the risk of toxic results from either.

 

[88brenno]

Yeah it is safe to take both at the same time. so that's what i do. 20x pandadeines 15x ibuprofen+. then next dose, take the remainder of the 2 boxes. 1/2 the risk of toxic results from either.

I hope you mean your CWE'ing 20 apap pills and 15 ibu, 10,000mg is very dangerous, your using that dose ontop of the ibuprofen?

 

[spacejunk]

^ i'm pretty sure he's CWEing them...i should hope so, bobby!

 

[tentram]

Ahh ok. Yeah I dont squeeze the coffee filter but if its taking too long Ill prick it with a knife. If you do it right very little cloudiness gets through. It essentially comes down to what product you used. Some are better for filtering and others seem to have more colouring in the pills.

this is true. also, naturally, ibuprofen cwe come out cloudier than products containing paracetemol.

i wouldn't go knifing the filter, though, learn some patience

 

[Azron]

I have perfected my CWE... albeit only with 30's-500mg - Like Panadein Forte, Condalgin Foret, Prodein Forte... the later the best for me... I know that I have perfected 400mg CWE// Watever that = in a liquid Ml.. cause I been testing the difference by eating 400mg worth without the reaction... Same feeling, also a month at least apart to account for any questionable 'tolerance' myths. Do not do what I do. But I believe a cant get a better product from CWE if I was trained in chemistry... Not that I am... of course not.. No Im not a cop

 

[Ashley]

So I can take it daily without any problem, but its not harmless?

Atleast if your going to give advice don't contradict yourself, and bump to the Milk Thistle post earlier? I really am interested if anyone here takes it and in what doses, you should if your doing a CWE on any regular basis.
------
On another note I noticed sustanon is having troubles with blood in the urine, correct me if I am wrong but he was the one glorifying it earlier saying how much safer cwe ibuprofen is, whether or not it is related could be another story, interesting nonetheless.

My apologies for any misadvice, it was not intended. I never meant taking either compound daily over a long period of time was safe. Hence my comment about overconsumption. I know long term use of ibuprofen can be damaging to the stomach and that paracetamol is very toxic on the liver.

I do believe ibuprofen is safer based purely on it's solubility in cold water. Less ends up in the finished product, compared to paracetamol.

I just did a CWE on 30 codeine/ibuprofen tablets (384mg codeine phosphate), funnily enough. I feel codeine is going to be useful over the coming weeks when I kick.

Again, sorry for any misunderstanding.

Ash.