The Big & Dandy 4-AcO-DMT Thread - Act Three

[sn23]

If its moisture/water you could try a desiccant to get rid of it. If its due to an oily impurity or something like that you'd need to do a recrystallization and consider implementing an acid-base step before that. These extraction methods can be problematic however if you're not experienced, as 4-AcO-DMT is instable in case of overshooting with acid/base.

If you know exactly how much of 4-AcO-DMT you had before it gooified, you could try to dissolve it in a known amount of water or ethanol water mixture and dose volumetrically. Disadvantage is the shorter shelf life relative to powder. You definitely want that liquid totally frozen to slow down further degradation during storage and have it thaw completely to have an even concentration before dosing. Another drawback is that you'd be ingesting the impurities resp. degradation products.

 

[fly-]

In another forum, an user sent to analysis his 4-ACO-DMT Fumarate and it showed to be 70% (4-HO-DMT) 30% (4-ACO-DMT).

 

[Jesusgreen]

What i'm more concerned about is making it usable again. How can i bring it back to powder form so i can separate it into dosable sizes?

What do you mean by "dosable sizes"? To me that suggests eyeballing but maybe I'm misunderstanding.

Anyway, first of all I'd suggest what sn23 has already said, but also:

If it's a "brown goo" as described, you may still be able to weigh it out on a scale as you normally would. If you are not weighing your doses, having it in powder form won't help you dose accurately and could lead to you getting seriously hurt (or worse).

 

[Horns]

What do you mean by "dosable sizes"? To me that suggests eyeballing but maybe I'm misunderstanding.

Anyway, first of all I'd suggest what sn23 has already said, but also:

If it's a "brown goo" as described, you may still be able to weigh it out on a scale as you normally would. If you are not weighing your doses, having it in powder form won't help you dose accurately and could lead to you getting seriously hurt (or worse).

I use a scale and double weigh everything i take. I just think i'd have trouble handling this goo but i might be wrong. Powders are easy to move around but this stuff is the consistency of molasses and definitely active <10mg. I'm also unsure how much of the weight is the absorbed moisture from the air.

Thanks for the input everyone also. I did some internet searches and couldn't find any solutions to this scenario, i hope this thread leads to many positive trips to fellow researchers.

 

[HighonLife]

I think most of the worry is that once it degrades, it becomes a scheduled substance. I'm not sure how extreme the potency loss is, though.

Highonlife, I'm not sure if that's a market-wide thing. I still know a handful of domestic vendors for this stuff. Where there is a demand (and there surely is a demand for 4-aco), there will be a supply.

well thats very refreshing to hear that there is still some out there being carried and sold

ill have to start looking harder and doing my research

although it might be awhile before i get on that cuz i still got like 230ish mg

 

[Cyanoide]

Had an absolutely blissful trip yesterday with 20 mg insufflated. I've finding it increasingly harder to find a psychedelic I love more and that is more suitable for me. Wonderful sense of calm and serenity, inner peace, reflections about life and beautiful visuals. It is very sedating for me and I feel sleepy and a bit groggy on it but I actually love that feeling. Absolutely no bodyload whatsoever, no rise in blood pressure or any other negative symptoms I get with some other psychedelics.

 

[LSDreamer13]

HCl, while being more potent, degrades faster than Fumarate and so you have to be more careful with storage

I've found little potency differences between the two. In fact, for me, my HCl batch, while matching in intensity, seems to have a shorter trip duration. You do have to be careful with storage though, as others have mentioned. HCl will go much quicker than the fumarate version.

Thanks guys.

I just wanted to make sure it was still the same experience.

 

[Issac Sinclair]

Whoooo love this stuff, can't take it very often tho, no urge to redose. Its the only psychedelic that doesn't make me feel like shit the next day, probably cause its a tryp. It makes me feel god, feel the carbon in my body (subsequently feeling dinosaurs) and see amazing visuals.

 

[777xog]

Tried 18mg of the fumarate with a few friends the other night. It was pretty laid back - not as strong as I was expecting actually. CEVs were faintly present during the peak. (Same story from everyone else that tried it). It was, say, 1/3rd the intensity of my 3.5g shroom trip.

Does that sound right for 18mg?

 

[resonant111]

would the following be a good storage method for 4-aco?

put 4-aco in amber vial....place amber vial in pill bottle....load pill bottle with silica dessicant...place pill bottle in mason jar...load mason jar with dessicant...place mason jar in freezer.

***i've heard that moisture from the freezer can destroy the compound. would loading the bottle/jar with silica negate this? it also seems like a good idea to move the substance into a fridge, then let it sit at room temperature before opening the jar, correct?

 

[HighonLife]

Tried 18mg of the fumarate with a few friends the other night. It was pretty laid back - not as strong as I was expecting actually. CEVs were faintly present during the peak. (Same story from everyone else that tried it). It was, say, 1/3rd the intensity of my 3.5g shroom trip.

Does that sound right for 18mg?

i dunno if it sounds wrong or not but ime i took ~10mg and it felt like 2-2.5 grams of mushrooms, but compare to mushrooms can be tough cuz some mushrooms are better than others so its hard to say really but i would think 18mg would be better then just over 1 gram of mush

 

[sn23]

***i've heard that moisture from the freezer can destroy the compound. would loading the bottle/jar with silica negate this? it also seems like a good idea to move the substance into a fridge, then let it sit at room temperature before opening the jar, correct?

Sounds like a solid plan. If you have silica in the jar and leave it closed until it's warm before opening, you're totally safe. No need to worry about moisture from the freezer, if the jar is air-tight.

 

[resonant111]

sweet, thanks for the input.

 

[ShamusORiley]

A 15-20mg oral dose of this stuff is a good start, but for serious visuals and impact, it demands to be smoked. Smoke 10mg or so at the plateau following your oral dose, and you'll rocket the experience up to new heights. Trust me on this one, it was smoked 4-aco-dmt that gave me my first breakthrough experience. I love this chemical, I wish I knew where to find more, my vendor recently stopped supplying it FOREVER! So sad.

 

[twelvesevndi]

welllllllll i got back into the HCl over the weekend. 16 mg consumed over ~1.5 hr produced a +++. redosed with 10 mg at +3:00 for a smaller second peak. good times. don't think i can tell much of a difference in duration from the fumarate.
previously a trial with the HCl produced a longer trip but I now think that was because I had the drugs on a relatively full stomach.
Shared the HCl with a few friends. it seems like 13 mg is equivalent to about a half-eighth of good shrooms. a friend who has been eating a lot of actual fungus recently said the 4-aco-dmt hcl felt different from mushrooms so im gonna store the hcl at room temp for a little while longer %)

This weekend redosed 3h after finishing the first trip (26mg), and barely felt effects. Keep it for another time, redosing its a total waste of this amazing compound.

I really love to redose on this stuff but yes it can be really wasteful... i ate over 100 mg in a day last august.

My 4-AcO-DMT HCl has degraded quite quickly. It was brown and dry powder when i first got it, but after being exposed to air a couple of times it's gone sticky and brown, and now it's a solidified brown goo with a texture similar to toffee.

i was wondering how long it took for this to happen?

 

[tregar]

Theoretical discussion:

Update: the dilute acid catalyzed hydrolysis of 4-aco-dmt to 4-ho-dmt (psilocin) works much better than naoh catalyzed hydrolysis as none of the psilocin is oxidized or destroyed, as psilocin is unstable in alkaline or basic conditions (but is stable in acidic solutions, so long as anti-oxidant vitamin C added and frozen as soon as possible):

hxxp://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=15980735&page=0&vc=1#159 80735

Hypothetical hydrolysis extraction: (refer to link above to understand how hydrolysis works...the acetyl group is attacked by the water, catalyzed by the dilute acid...which hydrolyzes the substance to the hydroxy...it involves in theory a drop of muriatic (ph=2), 10ml of water, 50mg of substance, 20 to 30 minutes of gentle 140 F degree heat and stirring....then afterwords cooling down and a pinch of baking soda, and a minute later, crushed vitamin c...then freeze, in link above substitute http for the hxxp. Light should be kept to a minimum or turned off during, as up to 7% degredation can occur in 1 hour with strong light.)

It helps to look at the hydrolysis of aspirin to understand the hydrolysis of 4-aco-dmt to 4-ho-dmt, stomach acid will only convert a small percentage of it to 4-ho-dmt, just as stomach acid will only convert a small percentage of acetyl-salicylic acid (aspirin) to salicyclic acid, otherwise you would have gastric irritation/possible stomach bleeding when swallowing a single aspirin. Heat (140 degree F) + time (20 to 30 minutes) + dilute hcl acid is needed to convert all of the 4-aco-dmt to 4-ho-dmt.

acetyl-salicylic acid = aspirin

salicyclic acid = parent molecule
-----------------------------------
acetyl-psilocin = psilacetin

psilocin = parent molecule

Salicylic acid is a natural analgesic present in the leaves and bark of certain plants. It is generally unsuitable for internal use, since it is a strong gastric irritant and can cause internal bleeding. In fact, aspirin was invented for this very reason; the acetylated molecule isn't as rough on the digestive tract, although it does hydrolyze to some degree in the stomach (a small percentage of it).

Hydrolysis can also take place in plain water but nobody uses it because it is so incredibly slow. Heat (140 to 150 degree F) + dilute acid = rapid hydrolysis.

 

[tregar]

4-aco-dmt gives me extreme drowsiness and sedation at low or high doses, and I always experience loss of muscular control in my arms, and find it difficult to move around, I've fallen asleep during every experience and it feels like it puts me in an Alienated space devoid of emotions. I believe I'm allergic to the stuff after many trials with it...I was frankly disappointed. Others seem to enjoy it, but from reading all 3 incarnations of this thread, it seems there is a minority of others who also respond to 4-aco-dmt in similar ways that I do.

I've stopped taking it as I found 4-ho-dmt (psilocin) to give the type of psychedelic trip I love, uplifting, divine inspiration, spiritual, very psychedelic, deep & visual, no nausea. 10mg dose is quite strong (about like 2g of hawaiian copelandia cyanescens), Shulgin's description of 4-ho-dmt in TIHKAL are very accurate of the effects imho.

psilocin:-------------compared with---------LSD

4.00 = max affinity, 0.00 = no affinity:

5-HT1A--2.88................................5-HT1A--3.73
5-HT1B--2.19................................5-HT1B--4.00
5-HT1D--3.40................................5-HT1D--3.70
5-HT1E--3.03................................5-HT1E--2.62
------------ ------------
5-HT2A--2.14................................5-HT2A--3.54
5-HT2B--4.00................................5-HT2B--3.11
5-HT2C--2.52................................5-HT2C--3.11
5-HT5A--2.83................................5-HT5A--3.64
------------ ------------
5-HT6--2.82.................................5-HT6---3.75
5-HT7--2.82.................................5-HT7---3.77
D1-----3.37..................................D1------2.34
D3-----2.52..................................D3------3.11
adrenal 2A--1.36........................adrenal 2A---2.93
adrenal 2B--1.57........................adrenal 2B---0.00
adrenal 2c--1.03.........................adrenal 2c---0.00

 

[Cyanoide]

4-aco-dmt gives me extreme drowsiness and sedation at low or high doses, and I always experience loss of muscular control in my arms, and find it difficult to move around, I've fallen asleep during every experience and it feels like it puts me in an Alienated space devoid of emotions. I believe I'm allergic to the stuff after many trials with it...I was frankly disappointed. Others seem to enjoy it, but from reading all 3 incarnations of this thread, it seems there is a minority of others who also respond to 4-aco-dmt in similar ways that I do.

I've stopped taking it as I found 4-ho-dmt (psilocin) to give the type of psychedelic trip I love, uplifting, divine inspiration, spiritual, very psychedelic, deep & visual, no nausea. 10mg dose is quite strong (about like 2g of hawaiian copelandia cyanescens), Shulgin's description of 4-ho-dmt in TIHKAL are very accurate of the effects imho.

I experience strong sedation, drowsiness, some loss of motoric capabilities, talk a bit like a drunk and also find it hard to move around. I usually don't move around.

Initially I didn't like these properties, but now I've learned to love them. 4-AcO-DMT trips are quite meditative for me because I don't move around much, do anything special or talk much. I just sit or lie in a sofa or bed. So it becomes quite introspective where there's lots of time to reflect on life. Sometimes I do get a little bit too sedated. It's like I'm in a cloud, I don't care about which track is playing (I'm VERY sensitive to have the right music on trips), which people are around me, I just nod into my own world and don't really care what happens around me. It's definitely not a social psychedelic for me.

The sedation and drowsiness is a kind of hallmark of 4-AcO-DMT, and people usually love it or hate it.

 

[tregar]

I totally hear you Cyanoide. At first I thought it was just the way I reacted to the stuff, then found out that she has the exact same reactions to it as I did....after many weeks of studying hydrolysis extractions on the net (especially the hydrolysis of aspirin) I took it upon myself to do some hydrolysis experiments and luckily arrived at 4-ho. It was alot of studying, and eventually based my experiments on the University Student paper where about aspirin is hydrolyzed to it's parent compound. Thankfully I'm very happy now. Each person just has to find their way.

 

[buddy hollys ghost]

Ive also noticed strange effects set/batch dependent. New recent batch provided amazing closed eye and open hallucinations. Neon shifting colored rainbows flying all over. Tremendous sense amplification, music divine. The previous batch was more of a fractal self similarity visuals when looking at trees, along with very alien beeps/squeaks, like the underlying mechanics of life was pouring through. Ended with a somewhat depressed dysphoric feeling, possibly due to drinking a lot of wine beforehand.

Could this be due to the different forms (HCL vs freebase vs fumerate)? Degradation?

Smoking a little at the come up provided a much better experience entirely, more emotional love feeling.

Incredible experiences but it just might not be the right substance for me, will continue exploring. This hydrolysis topic looks interesting thanks for the insight