MDMA Recovery (Stories & Support - 5)

[Regrets9995]

For sure, a combination of drunk and stoned Id say, and when its at its worst its like im on a small dose of shrooms or something. However this is something that got a lot better before my relapse but it slowly goes so probably will for you too my friend

Thanks man, and to everyone else who answers my questions. Keeping me going!

 

[martainnn]

Hey guys,

Haven't been on here in a few months, so thought I'd give an update as to my progress as I said I would. So it's been 10 months today since I last took MDMA. My symptoms have gotten a bit better but still suffering from bad dizziness, weird head sensations, DP/DR, anxiety, and my head generally feeling fucked. The dizziness is the worst, it's a constant pulsing in the background that feels like a dull brain zap, triggered even further when I move my head.

I was prescribed 15mg Mirtazapine nearly 3 months ago, I was on this dosage for a month. This helped but I found it used to make me feel pretty drowsy a lot of the time, so I moved up to 30mg and I've been on that a month and a half. I was very reluctant to take any medication because to me that felt like a step in the wrong direction and the problem would become a lot more real. However, it has helped me a lot. I went from feeling completely doomed every day, to feeling kind of ok. It's helped me a lot and pulled me out of a hole and I would recommend it to anyone in the same position if you feel you're reaching breaking point.
Mirtazapine does increase your appetite a bit, but i don't notice that anymore. It also affects HPPD but this is a side effect of the drug, I think it happens even with non-LTC users. I barely notice it anyway.

I was prescribed anti vertigo drugs for the dizziness (betahistine) but this didn't seem to do a lot, just made me hayfever 100x worse as it's an analogue of histamine.

I've also been going to some mindfulness sessions. I would say these can help to a certain point, it's good to get things off your chest and there are some good techniques which can make things easier, although it won't get rid of your physical symptoms. The doctor I saw and my mindfulness therapist are absolutely convinced it's anxiety, they don't seem to have experience with the MDMA LTC. He basically showed me all the evidence of this being anxiety, and pointed out I didn't have any evidence for it being biological damage, which is a fair point but he has no idea what the symptoms feel like!

Looking forward to the future, things can only go up from this point on.

Doctors dont have any experience of the 'LTC' because .....ITS NOT A REAL THING!!! You'd be much wiser to search for a doctor that specilises in DP/DR disorder, because thats what you have not an 'LTC' .

Dizziness is a common symptom of DP/DR and many of the users of at DPselfhelp complain of a drunk feeling. Some even go as far as to say they walk into things and walls. There are plenty of folks on there who have never done drugs and complain of the same symptoms, so forgot about this LTC crap. Dizziness is also a common symptom for those with general anxiety disorders.

 

[fnono33]

Right but I think that drug induced DP/DR is a different animal than regular dp/dr. Symptoms are the same but the cause is different. I think it's an important distinction.

 

[martainnn]

I have to disagree. If you slammed MDMA or similar drugs every day then yeah there will likely be some difference but I dont think theres any difference (or any measurable difference) between drug induced or anxiety induced DP/DR. People get exactly the same symptoms from a panic attack from weed, a panic attack from stress or just from taking mdma and all seem to have the same chance of recovery from what Ive seen. However, if you have HPPD and have dp/dr alongside it then I think its a different beast. But it may be possible that those with dp/dr may confuse their condition with HPPD since many dp/dr sufferers complain of multiple vision problems such as visual snow and light afterimages etc. Its such a complicated situation. Regardless, even if there was a difference which I highly doubt there is in most cases (not all), the treatment is practically the same.

 

[MYH1234]

Doctors dont have any experience of the 'LTC' because .....ITS NOT A REAL THING!!! You'd be much wiser to search for a doctor that specilises in DP/DR disorder, because thats what you have not an 'LTC' .

Dizziness is a common symptom of DP/DR and many of the users of at DPselfhelp complain of a drunk feeling. Some even go as far as to say they walk into things and walls. There are plenty of folks on there who have never done drugs and complain of the same symptoms, so forgot about this LTC crap. Dizziness is also a common symptom for those with general anxiety disorders.

Right but I think that drug induced DP/DR is a different animal than regular dp/dr. Symptoms are the same but the cause is different. I think it's an important distinction.

I agree with fnono33... When I say LTC I mean it as a general term to cover the variety of symptoms experienced which are triggered by drug use. You can label it however you want, but I believe 100% this is a condition triggered by drugs, and it will eventually go away. Lots of people have recovered over time, and there's no reason why any one of us shouldn't.
This dizziness is not completely anxiety induced, it is a CONSTANT background buzzing, it feels like I'm still slightly high on MDMA, with it comes bad memory and slight confusion at times which is consistent with taking too much MDMA (which I did, took very large doses). It is magnified by anxiety but anxiety is not the cause.

 

[fnono33]

Yeah, I agree it's complicated. Without the ability to image hppd, dp/dr it's all conjecture really. I personally think there are three types of HPPD. One is visual snow syndrome, one is flashbacks, and one is puely visual. Dp/dr is not the same thing as visual snow syndrome, they are co-morbid disorders?

 

[martainnn]

Yeah your dp/dr was triggered by drugs and yeah you have every chance of getting better as anyone else but you need to treat it as DP disorder, dp is an anxiety based disorder and can result in multiple symptoms but that doesnt have to mean you need to be experiencing anxiety all the time. I constantly feel off balance at the moment but im not always anxious, it depends on my situation, but I know from getting better previously that as my anxiety improved a lot of my symptoms such as dizziness went away for the most part.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

I think that drug induced DP/DR is a different animal than regular dp/dr. Symptoms are the same but the cause is different. I think it's an important distinction.

One possibility is that there are multiple different biological causes of DP/DR that can be present in both non-drug users and the drug-induced people

At the symptom producing level, neuroimaging has suggested DP is due to issues in communication between regions of the brain. But what produces the issues in regional brain communication may vary a little bit.

I guess it would seem dogmatic to me to think that there can only be one biological cause of hallucinations, visual disturbances, insomnia or seizures or whatever. But I wouldn't necessarily separate the drug users and non-drug users completely. Especially if people from both drug using and non-drug using camps can have success with the same drugs (e.g. Lamotrigine for DP).

I think what complicates the situation are the co-morbid symptoms, but HPPD from LSD and other non-MDMA-like drugs is commonly co-morbid with DP, so its probably not something specific to MDMA. After all, people do have HPPD symptoms without having ever tried drugs.

And most people with DP and/or DR have a lot of other symptoms, particularly anxiety, and I wouldn't exactly say that its just the DP/DR causing the anxiety. I'm sure the anxiety is a major contributor to the DP/DR symptoms or helps sustain them.

I have a feeling there is some common ground between HPPD and DP, I don't think its by chance that lamotrigine can treat both conditions

 

[socrilus]

The common link could just be as simple as this, which is oversimplified


drugs disrupt brain chemistry/HPA axis etc leading to DP/DR (and maybe but majority of the time not can lead to HPPD cause it disrupts those pathways too)

External stress, trauma, low self esteem, etc disrupts brain chemistry/HPA axis causing DP/DR. Does not lead to HPPD.

Lamictal is anti glutamate, restores HPA axis, etc over time and for HPPD for the people it works for also hits that pathway.

But lamictal isnt successful for everyone.

Does it have a greater cure rate for DP/DR than HPPD though?

 

[ADubbs]

I think there DP/DR is a result of the symptoms.... Not a symptom in itself. I don't have any mental symptoms except some anxiety. Mine are all physical or visual.

Personally I think it's because the serotonin system was so drained.... It has trouble signaling, and when it tries to become restored it has issues since MDMA is such a shock to the brain. Especially if after the initial insult you keep smoking weed and drinking like I did in the beginning.... it's like tearing a tendon and then not letting it fully heal... And you keep tearing it... Eventually it just won't be able to repair itself correctly and you'll have issues for the rest of your life.

 

[martainnn]

I believe it has shown about a ~30% positive response rate for DP/DR from what Ive seen. As for HPPD it seems the results are varied and there are only a few studies that show any success and tend to be case studies using one person. I dont think there are any randomised placebo controlled double blind studies for lamictal and HPPD though. Its worth a shot if you can get it but here in the UK its pretty much not an option for me unless I go private which I cannot afford.

 

[martainnn]

I think there DP/DR is a result of the symptoms.... Not a symptom in itself. I don't have any mental symptoms except some anxiety. Mine are all physical or visual.

Personally I think it's because the serotonin system was so drained.... It has trouble signaling, and when it tries to become restored it has issues since MDMA is such a shock to the brain. Especially if after the initial insult you keep smoking weed and drinking like I did in the beginning.... it's like tearing a tendon and then not letting it fully heal... And you keep tearing it... Eventually it just won't be able to repair itself correctly and you'll have issues for the rest of your life.

Possibly and im not ruling your theory out but I know many people who took 200mg+ doses on a regular basis (more often than I did) and are completely fine so I have to question if their serotonin systems were so drained why do they not experience dp/dr. None of this stuff (DP/DR, HPPD etc) has been extensively researched so at this point its all just a guessing game and I think it does more harm than good trying to figure out whats going on at a biological level when we really have no idea.

 

[Ihatenotfeeling]

Has anyone ever tried ect ?

 

[ADubbs]

Possibly and im not ruling your theory out but I know many people who took 200mg+ doses on a regular basis (more often than I did) and are completely fine so I have to question if their serotonin systems were so drained why do they not experience dp/dr. None of this stuff (DP/DR, HPPD etc) has been extensively researched so at this point its all just a guessing game and I think it does more harm than good trying to figure out whats going on at a biological level when we really have no idea.

Yeah it doesn't really matter what the reason is I guess.....not like we can do anything about the reason. Just because one person can do tons of drugs and another can't doesn't mean jack really....not everyone can drink a red bull and go to bed....some people can...we really are all so vastly different.

 

[martainnn]

Has anyone ever tried ect ?

As in electroconvulsive theropy? At this point i wouldnt even consider it. AFAIK its reserved for those with severe treatment resistant depression and I highly doubt anyone here has experienced it. There are many routes to explore before even thinking about something like ECT.

 

[socrilus]

As in electroconvulsive theropy? At this point i wouldnt even consider it. AFAIK its reserved for those with severe treatment resistant depression and I highly doubt anyone here has experienced it. There are many routes to explore before even thinking about something like ECT.

+1 to this

ECT as the name itself implies is a serious last resort treatment.

@ihatenofeeling

Its obviously your and your doctors decision at the end of the day. But I don't even think a doctor would recommend that considering you havent even been through a quarter of the treatments available and your suffering has not even reached 6 months. I mean of course if you go lookig for it a clinic probably you would be able to get it but I would HIGHLY consider and EXHAUST all other treatment avenues.

ECT has risks of memory loss.

And theres a lot of other options too before even going to ECT.

Other non SSRI meds, Hormonal therapies/augmentation, MAOIs, TMS, etc.

---
I may consider Lamotrigne and possibly Testosterone replacement augmentation.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

Has anyone ever tried ect ?

I would hope that better med management would take place first, and trying a mood stablizer class of drugs like Lamotrigine would likely be in order, but ECT can help with suicidality in the short run. Its not always side-effect free, but I wouldn't check it off as an option anyways. But its something to talk about with a doctor, if you can find one thats not crappy.

 

[ADubbs]

How likely are docs to give someone lamotrigine? I have a feeling mine isn't going to give it to me since I'm "making it by".

 

[martainnn]

How likely are docs to give someone lamotrigine? I have a feeling mine isn't going to give it to me since I'm "making it by".

Depends on where you're located? If youre in the UK then forget about it unless you have the money to go private. Not sure about how it works in other places but I guess its easier in certain areas of the world than others.

It pisses me off that the 2 times Ive been to a doctor about my DP (since that is the main thing I struggle with) they just offer me SSRIs even though they work for about 3% of DP sufferers but when I mention lamictal as a legit treatment option they moan that theres no enough studies lol. The control that drug companies have over doctors is stupid.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

I think it depends on the individual doctor - they are all different. Lamotrigine is accepted for treating bipolar depression so doctors would be much more likely to prescribe it for that than DP or HPPD, but I think besides the whole off-label thing some docs get worried about the 1 in apparently 1300 risk of a severe adverse skin/rash reaction (SJS).

A primary doc has likely never prescribed lamotrigine before except possibly for epilepsy, so a psychiatrist that has used it for bipolar may be more comfortable prescribing it.