Social Trans People & Dating Apps (Offshoot Thread from Gay Guys Thread)

[~Winterborn~]

But can you get down without being low and dirty on this question, how come every scientific paperwork not only say but came to conclusion that homosexuals are/they're the most prone to mental disorders?

I am unaware of that research. If in fact gay people are more likely to be diagnosed with mental disorders I would think it's due to growing up in a society where their desires are unusual combined with the bigotry they face. If when you first become a sexual being you feel that you have to hide how you feel, hear people talking about gay people in a negative way etc I can see that leading to anxiety and depression in later life.

how come every homosexual has as at least 1 or 3 more mental diseases, excluding schizophrenia.

@Foreigner

There we are, someone here right now thinks that every homosexual has 'mental diseases'.

 

[Foreigner]

Homosexuality was a psychological disorder in the United States until 1973. It took until 1992 for The World Health Organisation to declassified homosexuality as a mental illness. There are still many people who think your attraction to men is a mental illness. Saying 'gender dysphoria is a psychiatric condition' and inferring that trans people are not the same(and are lesser than) other disenfranchised people is bigoted.

It's not bigoted to point out a scientific fact. If that fact one day changes, then I will stop bringing it up.

Since that hasn't happened and you can't assume that it will, your point is meaningless.

In any case, you're comparing apples and oranges. Homosexuality is sexual orientation. Transexualism/gender dysphoria is about gender identity. Even *if* homosexuality were still a psychiatric condition, it would fall under a different category.

People who still think homosexuality is a mental illness are wrong. People who think that being trans is a mental illness are 100% correct.

I never said that trans people are "less than." Those are your words, not mine. Mentally ill people should be treated with dignity, get the help they need, and have their identity preferences acknowledged. I don't think their mental illness should become the dominant culture because they represent a small minority of people whereas the majority are not mentally ill in this regard. Businesses and organizations making their employeers and volunteers publicly display their preferred pronouns is a sign of that mentally ill social contagion. 99.9% of the population is cis. It doesn't need to be questioned.

 

[~Winterborn~]

In any case, you're comparing apples and oranges. Homosexuality is sexual orientation. Transexualism/gender dysphoria is about gender identity. Even *if* homosexuality were still a psychiatric condition, it would fall under a different category.

Correct, but the comparison was about how different minority groups are treated by the medical establishment which is a valid comparison. If you went to a country where homosexuality was considered a mental illness would your posts here suddenly clearly show your delusions?

People who think that being trans is a mental illness are 100% correct.

Not 100% gender dysphoria is the illness, transition is the cure. A trans person ideally should get to the point they no longer feel any gender dysphoria.

I never said that trans people are "less than." Those are your words, not mine.

You said trans people are not on par with other disenfranchised people, the definition of on par 'at the same level or standard as' hence what you said was that trans people are not at the same level as other disenfranchised people. Whether or not you're a bigot that's a bigoted statement.

 

[TheUltimateFixx]

'stop pretending to be a man' , well. Thing is YOU apparently can't even decide whether you 100% think you ARE one or wanna BE one, since you do that fucking annoying 'he/they' pronoun shit. So what, if you're a bloke you're a he/him, because that's how LANGUAGE WORKS.

Words are what other people use FOR you according to whether you look male or female to them, not something the use of which you dictate to someone in advance. Are you a guy? Then fucking OWN it. Calling yourself 'they' tells me you're a) not even sure yourself so how do you expect others to take you seriously as a man, or b) wanna be some nonexistent 'third gender' or whatever.

 

[Foreigner]

Correct, but the comparison was about how different minority groups are treated by the medical establishment which is a valid comparison. If you went to a country where homosexuality was considered a mental illness would your posts here suddenly clearly show your delusions?

I won't cater to a hypothetical scenario.

Not 100% gender dysphoria is the illness, transition is the cure. A trans person ideally should get to the point they no longer feel any gender dysphoria.

I'm not really here to comment on the efficacy of treatments. I'm just saying it's incorrect to call me transphobic because I won't have sex with a female vagina, and for pointing out that trans men and cis men are not equivalent.

You said trans people are not on par with other disenfranchised people, the definition of on par 'at the same level or standard as' hence what you said was that trans people are not at the same level as other disenfranchised people. Whether or not you're a bigot that's a bigoted statement.

Incorrect. All I said is that trans people and gay people are not the same in their origins. Gay people don't have a mental illness, trans people do. You can wave your hypothetical wand all you want, but the present reality is what it is. You may not believe it's a mental illness, but opinions are not facts. Until the science changes, the science is what it is. That doesn't mean trans people shouldn't be entitled to live lives free of discrimination. You're the one who brought up the disenfranchisement piece, not me. So you can stop putting words in my mouth already. You think that because I call them mentally ill that I think they are less than. That's YOUR assumption, and it's incorrect.

Since you obviously can't read, I will repeat myself YET AGAIN. I said that all of society shouldn't be suffering gender identity confusion for this very small (1 in 16,000) minority who are mentally ill. Trans people should feel free to be addressed by the pronoun they want, but cis society should not have to declare their pronouns since the overwhelming majority of the world is cis. It should be assumed that everyone is cis until otherwise said, at which point we can navigate that person's language needs. To do otherwise is to project this psychiatric confusion on all of society, and I don't agree with that... especially as it pertains to children. It's no different than if neuro-atypical people tried making us all state "I'm neuro-typical" upon the first meeting. We just don't do that. The thing we DO do is if somebody has high anxiety, we make sure not to frighten them; if someone is really depressed, we don't expect the same level of work from them.

Mental illness should be treated respectfully, but I don't think trans people are exactly equivalent to the gay/bisexual community. We share the same social movement and that's fine, I support that. But it's very clear that these people are not mentally well. They flip out whenever you don't cater 100% to them or support their delusion... like when you say you won't fuck them because they have vaginas. Trans women are running roughshod over women's safe spaces and calling them TERFs if they don't treat them as women; and trans men think they are entitled to fuck cis men and call them transphobic if we say we aren't into vaginas. They don't like being reminded that they aren't equivalent to cis men. They don't like being reminded of reality. You don't see these kinds of issues with gay and bisexual people. There is no cognitive dissonance.

If you can't see the nuance in what I'm saying then that's not my problem. I find that in these conversations, people who can't understand nuance just revert to namecalling. It's unfortunate because there's a rich discussion waiting to make your acquaintance, if you'd get over yourself.

 

[Eligiu]

But if my genital preference is bonafide pussy, that is pussy born as pussy - that is not transphobic.
So if I then start to date a girl who's a man that's transitioned to female, and has an artificial pussy (read: wound that is constantly trying to heal) - I wouldn't want to date that person because of their genitals. Which means I have genital preference.

But from your point of view this makes me transphobic, too?
Or am I missing something in translation here?

I'm not asking this to be a nuisance. I'm genuinely curious, because it seems according to your definition I'm transphobic.
And if I am transphobic because I want a natural pussy attached to a natural woman, then I guess I am a transphobe.

You seem to hold negative views on GRS results.

'wound that is trying to heal'

A hole, is a hole, is a hole.

I honestly don't understand why you cis people are so caught up on genitals honestly. I'd fuck anyone with any junk.

How would you even know the difference between a trans woman who had GRS early in life and who transitioned early and a cis woman? I'd argue you couldn't, which means your preference is less about the genitals (since we've established that there is hardly any discernable difference) and instead the fact that they are trans.

You can have your preference, no one is stopping you. Fuck all the bona fide pussy you wish.

But you can't have your cake and eat it too, just accept the fact that you are unattracted to trans people, because they are trans. The thing that annoys us is less the fact that people are unattracted to us, it's more their denial that they're transphobes. Just acknowledge your prejudice and live your life.

I mean according to your preference, you'd fuck a trans man no? Pre op, of course. Seems weird that you'd fuck someone who looks like an assigned male person just because they have a pussy. So again if the answer is that you would not, the only logical conclusion is that the reason is him being trans.

So again, the issue is not that you have a genital preference, it's that you won't fuck trans people.

Which I highlight, is fine. Not everyone has to. I'd rather not fuck anyone who finds my body disgusting because I actually have self respect and no interest in fucking said person when there are literally countless other people who either aren't fazed or find it a turn *on*.

No one says you have to fuck trans people, but the least you can do is be honest with yourself and everyone else that it's because you find our bodies unappealing and to some extent gross. And that is transphobic, sir.

 

[Eligiu]

'stop pretending to be a man' , well. Thing is YOU apparently can't even decide whether you 100% think you ARE one or wanna BE one, since you do that fucking annoying 'he/they' pronoun shit. So what, if you're a bloke you're a he/him, because that's how LANGUAGE WORKS.

Words are what other people use FOR you according to whether you look male or female to them, not something the use of which you dictate to someone in advance. Are you a guy? Then fucking OWN it. Calling yourself 'they' tells me you're a) not even sure yourself so how do you expect others to take you seriously as a man, or b) wanna be some nonexistent 'third gender' or whatever.

The they is there because I support non-binary people, chill out dude. I'm a binary trans man, I just hate she/her pronouns.

I literally just put it there to normalise the use of gender neutral pronouns. You made an assumption about how I identify, and you're very, very wrong.

Oh no, I don't know who I am! I'm having even more surgery in a month and I'm not even sure which gender I am! Oh I miss my titties so much, I'm gonna stop taking testosterone even though I literally take hormones to block estrogen! I'm so glad this one person on the internet knows more about my gender identity than me! Thank god for all the opinions of the non trans people so that I will realise my mistake. Ugh he got me, I haven't had a male gender identity since I was a child and live as a cis passing trans man who uses his privilege to try and make life easier for non binary people, I'm just confused!

Wow, you sure have... Some kind of point, though I'm not sure it's any good.

Chill out man, go do something that calms you down, spending your time trying to rule up the world's most binary trans man because you can't comprehend that he's doing it to help the rest of his community is a laughable waste of your time.

I'm sure you'll have some kind of smart, aggressive response to this about how I really am confused. It's always funny how people who aren't trans seem to know more about me than I know about myself. Weird.

I guess they're right though, I mean it's not like they actually are me, they just think their opinion about my life is valuable or worth sharing.

Do you want to know how much I care that you think I'm confused? It's a very small amount. It's actually non-existent. Because your opinion has literally no bearing on my life, you're just some guy behind a keyboard who is trying to offend a trans person.

Wow, how bold, how daring, how vogue. Never been done. A brand new experience for me.

Next.

 

[Eligiu]

So i'd imagine you're probably not attracted to trans-women? they have a cock....and you said you're down with that - so maybe - maybe not?


it's like calling somebody racist because they're black and they're not attracted to white people or the other way around....or not being attracted to Asians - or only being attracted to Asians....that's not racism - it's just what you like

it's like me buying black cars - that doesn't mean im scared of the colors of cars, i just don't really like them as much as the black ones i always buy

@Eligiu you're so wrong on labeling anybody anything, that you're easily the biggest bigot here

This just in breaking news, calling out transphobia for transphobia is now bigotry.

My, how the bigots get upset when the shoe fits.

Dude I'm literally one of THE most conservative trans people you can meet and y'all still can't manage to not be transphobic. I'm actually impressed by it.

Like, the other dude misgendered me multiple times and said I'm part woman and you're like 'no, the trans person is wrong for calling that behaviour out for what it is!'

 

[Eligiu]

I'll cut your post short here because this is where the logic severely deteriorates.

If I require real penises, then that by virtue excludes trans men.

I am not excluding them BECAUSE they are trans but BECAUSE they don't have a real dick.

Honestly, I give up. You are so delusional that there is no getting through to you. You think that because someone doesn't want to bang you for not having a real dick that they hate you. There's nothing I can do with that level of trauma-informed entitlement. Go see a therapist and stop taking out your shit on me. You're no different than straight women who feel entitled to try and convert gay men.

And no... I don't think that I'm god's gift and that everyone wants to bang me. But I have been approached by trans men before and I have to say no for the reasons I already explained.

The fact that you don't get something super basic as it has already been explained to you 10 times now, just shows you are mentally ill.

Call me transphobic all you want, I couldn't care less. Being insulted by a delusional, mentally ill person who won't unpack their own trauma means absolutely nothing to me. I personally think you are creepy AF and I would not want to be around you even AS A FRIEND let alone somebody who thinks they are en par to a natal man with a real dick and should be treated as such, especially by trying to gaslight people over their sexual preferences. I won't internalize YOUR guilt about being trans. I am happy the way I am and I love men with real dicks. That's NEVER going to change no matter what you call me.

Ugh, you still don't understand what I'm trying to say big brain.

I don't care if you only want to fuck a guy with a real penis. I was pointing out how much you shifted the goalposts from your original position.

First the issue was that you aren't attracted to vagina, which was made crystal clear with you headsmashing the caps lock button.

Then, the issue was that you wanted penis. Not real penis, just penis.

Then, the issue is that you wanted a natal man.

Next, it was that they must have a real penis.

You came into the discussion professing that your only issue with sleeping with trans men was that they have a vagina, which clearly isn't the case.

The fact that you think I think I'm equal to a natal man is fucking hilarious. I have literally written the words 'i accept I will never be a biological man' and somehow you're like 'he's delusional and thinks he's the same as us' I'm actually fairly certain you lack reading comprehension skills at this juncture. I explained in detail that the correct label for my biological sex is 'surgically transgendered female to male transsexual' does that SOUND like I actually believe I am the same as an assigned male person? Good fucking grief. It is like speaking to a child.

The issue is, you can't have your cake and eat it to. Don't be attracted to trans people, whatever don't care. There's other people in the world.

But don't try to say you're not a transphobe when you say shit like 'trans men are part women' like man don't even bother, we actually don't want your support, we'd rather have people on our side who don't misgender us because they're so focussed on the horrible thought that they might even be attracted to a trans person.

You say you've had trans me approach you and you've declined, well that still goes to my other point of wondering where you managed to even meet the trans friends you've got considering you won't fuck any of them, you view them still as their assigned gender, and you hate their political position. Sounds like a firm base for a friendship. The best transphobes always have their token trans friend/s.

I don't feel guilty about being trans at all, I feel neutral about it. It can't be changed, and to be frank I got it pretty good all things considered. I actually am pretty happy being trans much of the time, until I end up in these types of discussions really. You can lay everything on me being delusional, mentally ill and traumatised but the reality is I actually don't get along that well with most of my community and don't share the same views as many of them. Many trans people think it's transohobic to have a genital preference, I don't. Many think that everyone should be okay with fucking them, I don't. I even support the rules in place with sports regarding trans women playing in high level competition where they need to have their hormones monitored and show lower levels and wait out a period of non competing.

But excluding trans people because we are trans, and it is that, as much as you say it's because we don't have a real penis, the reason we don't is directly a result of us being trans and therefore is that, is transphobic.

And guess what, you STILL don't have to fuck anyone because it's such a commonly held belief, even though massive amounts of people also don't care at all. I mean how would you explain that?

If a good percentage of the population don't mind fucking a trans person but you do, and importantly some of those people are gay men who would fuck a trans man but not a cis woman, what other way of describing the reality of that is that those people are not transphobic and you are.

Fuck me, I'm trans and I would love to be biologically male but I can freely and without being upset say I know it'll never happen, yet it's like pulling goddamn teeth to get transphobes to just admit they are.

 

[Eligiu]

For a condition that is supposedly so rare, we certainly have a ton of trans people here on Bluelight and I have certainly met a ton in my life.

I believe that the actual rate of gender dysphoria is somewhere around 1-4%.

@Foreigner and I actually agree here. To be trans you need to have either gender dysphoria (negative feelings attached to your perceived gender and/or body) however there is no stipulation on how much dysphoria a person needs to be trans. Some trans men may choose to just have too surgery, just go on hormones, do both, also have a hysterectomy. You don't need to hate every aspect of your body to be trans.

Or, more emerging amongst trans people is the concept of 'gender euphoria' which flips the negative connotations on its head and refers to feeling immensely positive when taking steps to transition and be perceived as your identified gender.

So I could say that I experienced dysphoria about my body before I transitioned, and in the early stages of it. However I don't feel much if any dysphoria at all now as the remaining steps of my transition are not visible to others and most of my dysphoria was how I was perceived. I prefer to say I experience gender euphoria by living as a man and being perceived as one by the world and people I interact with.

Without either of these feelings, there is no reason a person would identify as trans, or take any steps to transition as doing so would actually cause dysphoria.

Most members of the trans community don't fully understand the newer trend where people present as their assigned gender at birth and just change their pronouns because it's so different to the experience of any other group within the trans community. Binary trans people medically and socially transition, non binary people socially and/or medically transition and will change their gender presentation to suit a non binary type of appearance. The last group don't change anything and appear not to have any need to, which is the opposite to that.

I've read articles by people who identify like that and they seem to describe it as more of a gender non conforming thing rather than a trans thing, which makes sense. Because gender neutral pronouns can be used for and by anyone, and frequently are when a person is being referred to in third person.

I don't know. I think it confuses cis people as well when these two groups are lumped in together because then you get the issue where we try to have surgery paid for as a necessary procedure instead of being cosmetic due to the diagnosis, but the transphobes scream 'but those trans people don't have gender dysphoria, they don't even need to transition! Why should we pay for the others, they can just live how they are' which is not ideal for us at all.

This is why I identify as transsexual. If they want to have the transgender label they can, but I won't share it because I need people to understand that transitioning wasn't a want, it was a need.

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

This just in breaking news, calling out transphobia for transphobia is now bigotry.

My, how the bigots get upset when the shoe fits.

Dude I'm literally one of THE most conservative trans people you can meet and y'all still can't manage to not be transphobic. I'm actually impressed by it.

Like, the other dude misgendered me multiple times and said I'm part woman and you're like 'no, the trans person is wrong for calling that behaviour out for what it is!'

is that what happened?

 

[Eligiu]

is that what happened?

The thing is, it's very predictable on my end. Do you think you're the first person to call me a bigot for saying people are transphobes? Lmao. Damn dude.

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

The thing is, it's very predictable on my end. Do you think you're the first person to call me a bigot for saying people are transphobes? Lmao. Damn dude.

well i never gave it much thought

but whoever else called you a bigot must be pretty cool too

 

[Eligiu]

well i never gave it much thought

but whoever else called you a bigot must be pretty cool too

Probably, they all seem to like eachother. They've got a lot in common.

Lmao imagine publically stating that calling out bigotry makes you a bigot. I would die of shame. Like, 'oh no, someone applied a label to people saying shitty things, they're the bad person' what a truly weird hill to die on, but to each their own.

 

[CFC]

Folks, can you PLEASE tone down the unnecessarily confrontational and charged sentiments? I appreciate why, and it's great that you've been able to hold such a detailed discussion without breaking into a slanging match. But it's clearly becoming less constructive and so less of a genuine dialogue now, wouldn't you say?

 

[tubgirl.jpg]

You seem to hold negative views on GRS results.

I don't know what GSR is, but please enlighten me?

'wound that is trying to heal'

I apologize for that. I shouldn't have said that. I may be a cis man but I'm also a cunt at times.

A hole, is a hole, is a hole.

Well, I disagree.

I honestly don't understand why you cis people are so caught up on genitals honestly.

I wish I could provide an answer, but I can't. I just know what genitals I'm attracted to and what I'm not.

I'd fuck anyone with any junk.

Good for you (I'm not being sarcastic).

How would you even know the difference between a trans woman who had GRS early in life and who transitioned early and a cis woman? I'd argue you couldn't,

I argue that I could because there are minute and subtle differences between the sexes that you can't emulate.
But I wouldn't know. I haven't meet one, as far as I know and

which means your preference is less about the genitals (since we've established that there is hardly any discernable difference) and instead the fact that they are trans.

I don't agree that there is hardly any discernable difference between the genitals. Of course a real vagina/penis and a surgically constructed vagina/penis are different.

Yeah, it is - because they were male at birth. I'd still see them as male.

You can have your preference, no one is stopping you. Fuck all the bona fide pussy you wish.

I appreciate getting your blessing.

But you can't have your cake and eat it too, just accept the fact that you are unattracted to trans people, because they are trans. The thing that annoys us is less the fact that people are unattracted to us, it's more their denial that they're transphobes. Just acknowledge your prejudice and live your life.

I am unattracted to trans people, yes. But I still don't see how that makes me transphobic?
I wouldn't treat a trans person better or worse than I treat anyone else.
I just wouldn't fuck them.

You said that you fuck anything with any junk, but a lot of us just aren't attracted to everything and there's very little we can do to change that.

I mean according to your preference, you'd fuck a trans man no? Pre op, of course. Seems weird that you'd fuck someone who looks like an assigned male person just because they have a pussy. So again if the answer is that you would not, the only logical conclusion is that the reason is him being trans.

Yes, assuming that pre op means they still look like women, that they wanted to fuck me too and that I find them attractive, why not?

I wouldn't ever fuck someone who looks like an assigned male person with a pussy, just like I wouldn't fuck a male of any kind.
That's not my thing. It's obviously more than the pussy that attracts me to women. However, the pussy is not negotiable.

I wouldn't fuck Elliot Page (if he still has his coochie). I would've fucked Elliot way pre Elliot Page, but not as Elliot Page.

So again, the issue is not that you have a genital preference, it's that you won't fuck trans people.

But I won't fuck trans people because I have genital preference. It's not something I can control.

Which I highlight, is fine. Not everyone has to. I'd rather not fuck anyone who finds my body disgusting because I actually have self respect and no interest in fucking said person when there are literally countless other people who either aren't fazed or find it a turn *on*.

Well, neither would I.

No one says you have to fuck trans people, but the least you can do is be honest with yourself and everyone else that it's because you find our bodies unappealing and to some extent gross. And that is transphobic, sir.

But I find male bodies unappealing and gross. And kids bodies. Does that make me phobic towards them as well?
Maybe that makes me a homophobe, because I won't suck a dick now and then?



I do appreciate your response. According to you, I am transphobic then. Which is fine, if this is your definition of transphobic.

 

[Eligiu]

I don't know what GSR is, but please enlighten me?

I apologize for that. I shouldn't have said that. I may be a cis man but I'm also a cunt at times.

Well, I disagree.

I wish I could provide an answer, but I can't. I just know what genitals I'm attracted to and what I'm not.

Good for you (I'm not being sarcastic).

I argue that I could because there are minute and subtle differences between the sexes that you can't emulate.
But I wouldn't know. I haven't meet one, as far as I know and

I don't agree that there is hardly any discernable difference between the genitals. Of course a real vagina/penis and a surgically constructed vagina/penis are different.

Yeah, it is - because they were male at birth. I'd still see them as male.


I appreciate getting your blessing.

I am unattracted to trans people, yes. But I still don't see how that makes me transphobic?
I wouldn't treat a trans person better or worse than I treat anyone else.
I just wouldn't fuck them.

You said that you fuck anything with any junk, but a lot of us just aren't attracted to everything and there's very little we can do to change that.


Yes, assuming that pre op means they still look like women, that they wanted to fuck me too and that I find them attractive, why not?

I wouldn't ever fuck someone who looks like an assigned male person with a pussy, just like I wouldn't fuck a male of any kind.
That's not my thing. It's obviously more than the pussy that attracts me to women. However, the pussy is not negotiable.

I wouldn't fuck Elliot Page (if he still has his coochie). I would've fucked Elliot way pre Elliot Page, but not as Elliot Page.


But I won't fuck trans people because I have genital preference. It's not something I can control.


Well, neither would I.

But I find male bodies unappealing and gross. And kids bodies. Does that make me phobic towards them as well?
Maybe that makes me a homophobe, because I won't suck a dick now and then?



I do appreciate your response. According to you, I am transphobic then. Which is fine, if this is your definition of transphobic.

If it's any consolation it's a fairly mild form of transphobia, really.

But again you're still missing an issue. You can consider a trans man genetically female, biologically something like what is on my medical file which is 'surgically transgendered female to male trans man' instead of biologically female (which we aren't, if me and a biological female stand naked next to eachother we would look nothing alike, so it's absurd to say that we are) and that our *gender* is male and therefore we are male. Because again, and this harks back to before - you can consider me a woman all you like on the forum but if you and I bumped into each other on the street you would never know, so how can you think you can state with any certainty that you consider trans people anything when you can't even tell that we are trans? You'd gender me as male and forever consider me male after a real life encounter.

Genetically, I am (I assume, could be wrong) female and *this will not ever change* but no one can see my chromosomes, so it has no bearing on how they consider me.

You seem to be labouring under the presumption that trans people are all clockable, we are not, and I certainly am not.

A pre op trans man is someone who has not had surgery. They may very well be on hormones. I am partially pre op, so according to you that puts me in the fuckable category because I meet the 'bona fide pussy' (and in case another bright spark comes on to ask me about my junk after I talk to this guy about it, he's the only one I'm talking to so he's the only one who gets to pass a comment) criteria. But dude, I look 100% guy so you're gonna be turned right off.

The thing is, there are loads of people who will fuck trans people who also have preferences, they just happen to be inclusive of trans people. I have a support worker who is gay and has sex with cis gay men and trans men pre op, but absolutely would not have sex with a cisgender woman. He is attracted to men, and he views trans men as men even if we don't have a dick. That isn't an unusual position in my experience. It's definitely a more progressive one.

If you want my advice I wouldn't get too upset about having a transphobic preference which excludes trans people. As I said it's pretty mild as far as transphobia goes. If that were your only view I wouldn't even call you a transphobe, you'd just be a person with a transphobic preference.

However, your view where you won't accept our gender identity as being legitimate and resolutely maintain that we are our assigned gender at birth you could work on. You can actually hold the simultaneous belief that a trans man is genetically female but his gender is male and vice versa for a trans woman, which allows you the safety of still knowing their assigned gender and feeling like science isn't being ignored, but not invalidating us. Your genetic sex is (probably) male. Your biological sex is male. Your gender identity is male. You were lucky, I was not. Mine don't match, but gender is different to sex. Unless of course you personally boil your entire manhood and experience of life as a male down to your penis, because that's pretty limiting. It's this viewpoint that makes you more of a transphobe rather than the other one. The other one is like,1/10 transphobia.

 

[Eligiu]

@tubgirl.jpg GRS is gender reassignment surgery, which is the term widely used instead of sex change. Also known as gender affirmation surgery.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I don't know what GSR is, but please enlighten me?

gender reassignment surgery is also known as 'bottom' surgery.

afaik there is currently no clinical standard because, though its done frequently, there are still many different types of procedures.

the female to male version involves removing flesh from the arm to construct a penis. i'm not sure what happens to the urethra, presumably its lengthened sometimes. if this surgery is not done very carefully, the neopenis can fall off due to blood supply problems.

in the case of male to female, the penis is inverted into the pelvic cavity, and the ball skin is user to fashion some sort of 'labia,' i'm not sure where the clitoris comes from. not all surgeons attempt a clitoris. because the body naturally tries to close any cavities that aren't supposed to be there, it is necessary to dilate the neovagina, hours a day, gradually decreasing in frequency. if you don't do this properly, the neovagina will close up. many people who have had this surgery report a total loss of feeling. the removal of the testicles massively impacts hormone production and thus libido (i think i read that this is why post op trans women have a higher suicide rate than pre op, but i'm not sure if that is remotely true cos when i tried to fact check myself i found this which suggests gender affirming surgery reduces mental health problems but doesn't differentiate between types). if the surgeon isn't scrupulous and laser hair removal isn't done priot to surgery, you can end up with hairs in the neovagina. bits of the skin used to create faux labia can rot off if care isn't taken.

it is possible to have sex with a neovagina- i had a punter who had a trans girl, he said it was odd because there was no cervix and no natural lubrication, but enjoyable enough.

the structure of the pelvis differs between males and females, which limits the positioning options and thus the theoretical maximum realism of such surgeries.

none of these looks remotely like the real deal. even the best ones. i looked at some a while back out of morbi fascination and suggest you don;t.

i find it nuts that trans people say we are obsessed with their genitals when they aren't the ones investing £10ks in surgery to construct really poor approximations.

i personally would not have sex with a trans person cos i like cock and male bodies. women are generally shorter and more curvy, i tend to like very 'manly' men, so even a post op trans man would be very unlikely to fit the bill. i've tried pussy cos i find women sexually attractive but it just didn't do it for me. i think i like the idea of the dirtiness more than actual women. give me a man with a hairy chest and broad shoulders any fucking day.

 

[Eligiu]

gender reassignment surgery is also known as 'bottom' surgery.

afaik there is currently no clinical standard because, though its done frequently, there are still many different types of procedures.

the female to male version involves removing flesh from the arm to construct a penis. i'm not sure what happens to the urethra, presumably its lengthened sometimes. if this surgery is not done very carefully, the neopenis can fall off due to blood supply problems.

in the case of male to female, the penis is inverted into the pelvic cavity, and the ball skin is user to fashion some sort of 'labia,' i'm not sure where the clitoris comes from. not all surgeons attempt a clitoris. because the body naturally tries to close any cavities that aren't supposed to be there, it is necessary to dilate the neovagina, hours a day, gradually decreasing in frequency. if you don't do this properly, the neovagina will close up. many people who have had this surgery report a total loss of feeling. the removal of the testicles massively impacts hormone production and thus libido (i think i read that this is why post op trans women have a higher suicide rate than pre op, but i'm not sure if that is remotely true cos when i tried to fact check myself i found this which suggests gender affirming surgery reduces mental health problems but doesn't differentiate between types). if the surgeon isn't scrupulous and laser hair removal isn't done priot to surgery, you can end up with hairs in the neovagina. bits of the skin used to create faux labia can rot off if care isn't taken.

it is possible to have sex with a neovagina- i had a punter who had a trans girl, he said it was odd because there was no cervix and no natural lubrication, but enjoyable enough.

the structure of the pelvis differs between males and females, which limits the positioning options and thus the theoretical maximum realism of such surgeries.

none of these looks remotely like the real deal. even the best ones. i looked at some a while back out of morbi fascination and suggest you don;t.

i find it nuts that trans people say we are obsessed with their genitals when they aren't the ones investing £10ks in surgery to construct really poor approximations.

i personally would not have sex with a trans person cos i like cock and male bodies. women are generally shorter and more curvy, i tend to like very 'manly' men, so even a post op trans man would be very unlikely to fit the bill. i've tried pussy cos i find women sexually attractive but it just didn't do it for me. i think i like the idea of the dirtiness more than actual women. give me a man with a hairy chest and broad shoulders any fucking day.

Not sure why you think trans men can't be manly? I have broad shoulders, a hairy chest, hair all over my body and a full beard.

Granted I've been on hormones almost a decade but I've got loads of trans male friends who are extremely masculine, more so than many cis men.

Why does everyone in here think that trans men look like women lmao most of us pass as 100% assigned male at birth after a decade of hormones.

Like you said a post op trans man wouldn't fit the bill, why not? What if he (like me) is almost six foot tall, can grow a beard, has broad shoulders, hairy chest and stomach, hairy legs and arms. Seems like a pretty big statement to say none of us are manly.

I mean, I get people constantly assuming I'm actually a pre transition trans woman when I disclose being trans because they cannot believe I could possibly be assigned male at birth. The peak level of passing is being misgendered as the wrong type of trans person because people cannot fathom that you could possibly have ended up like this, and despite the glaring obvious 'GUY GUY GUY' signs you're putting out to the world they go 'trans woman's

Logically one could infer from that, that I am quite masculine.

I mean there's still the problem of dick, which isn't transphobic, that's just a genital preference but you can't really make statements saying because you only like manly men that trans men won't do it for you.

Have you only seen pictures of trans men in early transition or something? Or pre hormones? Cause we look cis after a while.