Opioids Suboxone

[Kizaru]

I wouldn't necessarily say the high from Suboxone disappears any faster than the high from oxy or heroin.

Actually the "high" lasts all day & even to this day (7 years later), I still get random days where I feel like Suboxone makes me a tad bit high.

Of course the high is nowhere near as enjoyable as heroin or a lot of other opioids. If you have no tolerance, I'd say a tiny dose of Suboxone could be just as enjoyable as any other opioid.


Addiction & dependence are two different things. So I don't think bupe is worse addiction-wise or even necessarily dependence-wise.

But for some one who's not tolerant, I think they would have an easier time coming off of shorter agonists.
Because bupe is a long acting partial agonist, so it's withdrawals last much longer than regular opioids.

A person could do bupe for 4-5 days & then quit & think they're in the clear until 2-3 days later, the actual withdrawal from the bupe kicks in.
And generally by that time, they'd already be through the acute phase of withdrawals from heroin or shorter acting agonists.

So a protracted withdrawal is more likely to cause redosing/relapse because the person is gonna get tired of feeling like shit day after day.
Time spent on it can matter too though. I've read from people on here that their acute phase of withdrawals from bupe lasted up to 30 DAYS.
I've never actually withdrawal from bupe though, so I can't really say how severe it gets.

I know I had withdrawal once from it while I was still getting it from a friend off the streets. Back in like 2017. Had to go through a week of bupe withdrawal.
By the end of that week, my hands were shaking constantly. Had no energy, achey body, no interest or pleasure in anything.
Even my mom commented on my hands shaking. And shaking hands was something unique to bupe withdrawal for me. Never had shaking hands from heroin or shorter agonists.


So ask yourself this....

Would you rather go through 3-7 days of heroin withdrawal ?
Or 30 days (I've read of people having withdrawals for up to 6 months even) of bupe withdrawal?

Not to mention, because of bupe's potency... it's going to activate waaaay more receptors in your body (depending on dose) than heroin ever could (because if you saturated your receptors in heroin like you can bupe, you'd be dead).

I don't rlly understand what you mean you gonna activate way more receptors with bupe ? How is that doing it since its only a partial agonist ?

 

[Kizaru]

I wouldn't necessarily say the high from Suboxone disappears any faster than the high from oxy or heroin.

Actually the "high" lasts all day & even to this day (7 years later), I still get random days where I feel like Suboxone makes me a tad bit high.

Of course the high is nowhere near as enjoyable as heroin or a lot of other opioids. If you have no tolerance, I'd say a tiny dose of Suboxone could be just as enjoyable as any other opioid.


Addiction & dependence are two different things. So I don't think bupe is worse addiction-wise or even necessarily dependence-wise.

But for some one who's not tolerant, I think they would have an easier time coming off of shorter agonists.
Because bupe is a long acting partial agonist, so it's withdrawals last much longer than regular opioids.

A person could do bupe for 4-5 days & then quit & think they're in the clear until 2-3 days later, the actual withdrawal from the bupe kicks in.
And generally by that time, they'd already be through the acute phase of withdrawals from heroin or shorter acting agonists.

So a protracted withdrawal is more likely to cause redosing/relapse because the person is gonna get tired of feeling like shit day after day.
Time spent on it can matter too though. I've read from people on here that their acute phase of withdrawals from bupe lasted up to 30 DAYS.
I've never actually withdrawal from bupe though, so I can't really say how severe it gets.

I know I had withdrawal once from it while I was still getting it from a friend off the streets. Back in like 2017. Had to go through a week of bupe withdrawal.
By the end of that week, my hands were shaking constantly. Had no energy, achey body, no interest or pleasure in anything.
Even my mom commented on my hands shaking. And shaking hands was something unique to bupe withdrawal for me. Never had shaking hands from heroin or shorter agonists.


So ask yourself this....

Would you rather go through 3-7 days of heroin withdrawal ?
Or 30 days (I've read of people having withdrawals for up to 6 months even) of bupe withdrawal?

Not to mention, because of bupe's potency... it's going to activate waaaay more receptors in your body (depending on dose) than heroin ever could (because if you saturated your receptors in heroin like you can bupe, you'd be dead).

Hey so listen i do think i have a bigger problem then i once tought atm with bupe . I am not afraid of being sick i don't give one fking crap about that. I am just afraid depression will hit like a brick after a week of abstaining . I get these 8mg pills from a guy who gets them prescribed . Used it for my very long ghb addiction (which succeeded) and came to find out it had "anti depressant effects" so obviously my stupid dumb fking brain thought "this is good , i need this" and now i am dependant . Its not that bad because i have been doing it for some months one 8mg pill spreaded over a week or a little more . Would it be worth it getting some pregalabine ? And with worth it i mean rlly worth it (not kratom level worth it) i have used alot of lyrica in the past for my G withdrawals and never became addicted or dependant on pregalabine (for me its far far below benzo's ) but man i rlly rlly feel i underrrstimated bupes dependancy . Still i don't think its worse then full agonist , but its a fuckton more addictive (snorting) then kratom/codeïne/tramadol/odsmt .

 

[SpiralusSancti]

I can get my hands on pregalabine would it be worth it ? I have used that in the past for ghb withdrawal but i also read it does wonders for opioide wd . I also don't find lyrica addictive in anyway way way below benzo's both psychological and physical .

You could. But than do a rapid tapper of bupe over just a few days and stop it. Also don't go for pregabalin in a way that you simply start using it instead bupe, go for it in a way that you use them for first few days, 5 - 10 top, lower over few days and after that use only when you really do feel bad and not to remove some bad feeling you anticipate that might not even come after all.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

I don't rlly understand what you mean you gonna activate way more receptors with bupe ? How is that doing it since its only a partial agonist ?

Even antagonist can act on more receptors than full agonist cuz why not?

 

[SpiralusSancti]

In essence don't confuse how some substance acts on a single receptor and it's abilities when it come to having impact on number of receptors. Just like antitpsychotics that are antagonists can have impact on any % of receptors so can partial and full agonists.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

I don't rlly understand what you mean you gonna activate way more receptors with bupe ? How is that doing it since its only a partial agonist ?

I think I already tried to explain how... but I'll do it again.

It has to do with potency.


By the time you reach like 4-8mg of Suboxone, almost all of the opioid receptors in your body are completely covered. This is because bupe is roughly as potent as fentanyl. Yes it's a partial agonist, but that just means it doesn't have high intrinsic activity at the receptor.

Now if you took 4-8mg of any other opioid, it wouldn't cover all the opioid receptors in your body. Full agonists aren't meant to. If every opioid receptor in your body was completely covered in heroin, you'd die. Full agonists work better because they activate the receptor all the way, but when you use a full agonist, you don't need to take so much that it covers every receptor in your body, like bupe does, in order to get any effects or to stop cravings.

Plus every time you take bupe there's still left over bupe from the last time you dosed sitting on your receptors. So the fresh stuff is just gonna go attach to open & more available receptors. Bupe specifically, also starts to attach to different receptors once the dose is too high as well.


Bupe honestly should be in a category of it's own, cause it has it's own "high" and it's own sort of dependence, different from traditional opioids.
Some say this dependence/withdrawal is worse & others find it easier. I think it all really depends on personal chemistry.

And yes pregablin & gabapentin can help with the withdrawals slightly. I don't think they would for me, but I've been an opioid user for decades now.

I think you'll be okay depending on the length of time you used & how psychologically addicted to bupe/opioids you are.
Withdrawal will always be worse for me since I've been through it for so many years & no length of time away from opioids ever makes me feel better again.
So I'm stuck on them for life, which is fine with me because I like them, enjoy them & want to be able to use them.


But yeah, prepare for several weeks of anhedonia & depression once you stop.

 

[Kizaru]

I think I already tried to explain how... but I'll do it again.

It has to do with potency.


By the time you reach like 4-8mg of Suboxone, almost all of the opioid receptors in your body are completely covered. This is because bupe is roughly as potent as fentanyl. Yes it's a partial agonist, but that just means it doesn't have high intrinsic activity at the receptor.

Now if you took 4-8mg of any other opioid, it wouldn't cover all the opioid receptors in your body. Full agonists aren't meant to. If every opioid receptor in your body was completely covered in heroin, you'd die. Full agonists work better because they activate the receptor all the way, but when you use a full agonist, you don't need to take so much that it covers every receptor in your body, like bupe does, in order to get any effects or to stop cravings.

Plus every time you take bupe there's still left over bupe from the last time you dosed sitting on your receptors. So the fresh stuff is just gonna go attach to open & more available receptors. Bupe specifically, also starts to attach to different receptors once the dose is too high as well.


Bupe honestly should be in a category of it's own, cause it has it's own "high" and it's own sort of dependence, different from traditional opioids.
Some say this dependence/withdrawal is worse & others find it easier. I think it all really depends on personal chemistry.

And yes pregablin & gabapentin can help with the withdrawals slightly. I don't think they would for me, but I've been an opioid user for decades now.

I think you'll be okay depending on the length of time you used & how psychologically addicted to bupe/opioids you are.
Withdrawal will always be worse for me since I've been through it for so many years & no length of time away from opioids ever makes me feel better again.
So I'm stuck on them for life, which is fine with me because I like them, enjoy them & want to be able to use them.


But yeah, prepare for several weeks of anhedonia & depression once you stop.

Sorry for my misunderstanding i apologise .
The thing is my bupe dose never goes above 1mg though . Thanks for your explanation and i understand it . Bupe is a very strong med and it attaches strongly on the MU receptor , i heard even a small amount of 0.05 even is active . But this does make a slow taper over the course of weeks or months possible with not to much of wd symptoms . I mean how would tapering heroïne with heroïne would play out ? Or oxy with oxy is that not way more difficult ? I have zero experience with full opioide agonist , the only experience i get is with my colonoscopy every 2 years and then i get iv fentanyl combined with midazolam and i could definitely somewhat understand how addictive this shit could be . Iv felt so clean it felt just purely natural

 

[Kizaru]

I think I already tried to explain how... but I'll do it again.

It has to do with potency.


By the time you reach like 4-8mg of Suboxone, almost all of the opioid receptors in your body are completely covered. This is because bupe is roughly as potent as fentanyl. Yes it's a partial agonist, but that just means it doesn't have high intrinsic activity at the receptor.

Now if you took 4-8mg of any other opioid, it wouldn't cover all the opioid receptors in your body. Full agonists aren't meant to. If every opioid receptor in your body was completely covered in heroin, you'd die. Full agonists work better because they activate the receptor all the way, but when you use a full agonist, you don't need to take so much that it covers every receptor in your body, like bupe does, in order to get any effects or to stop cravings.

Plus every time you take bupe there's still left over bupe from the last time you dosed sitting on your receptors. So the fresh stuff is just gonna go attach to open & more available receptors. Bupe specifically, also starts to attach to different receptors once the dose is too high as well.


Bupe honestly should be in a category of it's own, cause it has it's own "high" and it's own sort of dependence, different from traditional opioids.
Some say this dependence/withdrawal is worse & others find it easier. I think it all really depends on personal chemistry.

And yes pregablin & gabapentin can help with the withdrawals slightly. I don't think they would for me, but I've been an opioid user for decades now.

I think you'll be okay depending on the length of time you used & how psychologically addicted to bupe/opioids you are.
Withdrawal will always be worse for me since I've been through it for so many years & no length of time away from opioids ever makes me feel better again.
So I'm stuck on them for life, which is fine with me because I like them, enjoy them & want to be able to use them.


But yeah, prepare for several weeks of anhedonia & depression once you stop.

I do have a feeling i am alot more psychological addicted arldy then i thought . You know as an addict you can't rlly trust yourself . But bupe has literature that it could possibly be a anti depressant now this is mostly the thing why pretty much everything is addictive to me . I only use specific substances that removes my depression and i am rlly afraid the bupe wd depression wil just start the second week . I am not afraid of being sick or anything , i am used to horrible ghb withdrawal which is gaba b receptor related and i would take any opioide wd compared to the insane anxiety of gaba wd .
But i dont know how horrible heroïne wd could be though ..

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

I do have a feeling i am alot more psychological addicted arldy then i thought . You know as an addict you can't rlly trust yourself . But bupe has literature that it could possibly be a anti depressant now this is mostly the thing why pretty much everything is addictive to me . I only use specific substances that removes my depression and i am rlly afraid the bupe wd depression wil just start the second week . I am not afraid of being sick or anything , i am used to horrible ghb withdrawal which is gaba b receptor related and i would take any opioide wd compared to the insane anxiety of gaba wd .
But i dont know how horrible heroïne wd could be though ..

Bupe is theorized to have "antidepressant" properties due to it's kappa antagonism....

So one company tried to market a form of bupe that just worked on the kappa receptors.. but it failed & never made it to market.


Most likely because all opioids have antidepressant properties. And the antidepressant properties are most likely more related to the mu-receptor.
Im in my opinion & experience, most do. Heroin & tramadol definitely had antidepressant effects on me as well. As in they relieved my depression greater than most other things.

So, technically, buprenorphine is no more an "antidepressant" than any other opioid would be.
So if you get bad depression after any opioid use, you'll most likely get it after bupe use as well.

 

[Kizaru]

Bupe is theorized to have "antidepressant" properties due to it's kappa antagonism....

So one company tried to market a form of bupe that just worked on the kappa receptors.. but it failed & never made it to market.


Most likely because all opioids have antidepressant properties. And the antidepressant properties are most likely more related to the mu-receptor.
Im in my opinion & experience, most do. Heroin & tramadol definitely had antidepressant effects on me as well. As in they relieved my depression greater than most other things.

So, technically, buprenorphine is no more an "antidepressant" than any other opioid would be.
So if you get bad depression after any opioid use, you'll most likely get it after bupe use as well.

Yes i read about its antogonism on the kappa receptor . I have to admid all these things are new to me so i don't want to come off as an ignorant person or something . So stimulating kappa receptor (agonising) causes dysphoria ? Wasn't this the reason why salvia could be dysphoric also ? And because bupe blocks these kappa receptors you have an anti depressant effect ? And yes i knew that opioides possessed anti depressant quality, i even studied about it being used in the 50's sometimes with great succesion in severe suicidal depressed patients. and afterwards the "lobotomy" horrible time period came . Why did they completely stop with this ? Obviously because of the addiction part i guess. But bupe was a potential less addictive and thats why they studied more at being used off label i think for depression . But its still not fda approved . It did alot fore me in quitting my very long ghb addiction. , It helped me going to the gym and now i can bench 100 kilo . I have had chronic depression from the age of 12 , i also suffer from personality disorder and also tried medication which ended horrific . Lost my sexual function for years after quitting paxil which is a possible lasting side effect called pssd . Back then it wasn't officially recognized and doctors would say ssri could not cause lasting symptoms . And then a year later it became official. This changed me but luckely after 8 years its gone . So i hope you can see my problem here that i can't and will never ever use anything remotely ssri/snri related . I just don't know what to do with it , i know its addictive but it helped me tremendously !

 

[Kizaru]

In essence don't confuse how some substance acts on a single receptor and it's abilities when it come to having impact on number of receptors. Just like antitpsychotics that are antagonists can have impact on any % of receptors so can partial and full agonists.

Sorry man i kinda am new to all this stuff deathindustrial explained it great in detail .

 

[Kizaru]

You could. But than do a rapid tapper of bupe over just a few days and stop it. Also don't go for pregabalin in a way that you simply start using it instead bupe, go for it in a way that you use them for first few days, 5 - 10 top, lower over few days and after that use only when you really do feel bad and not to remove some bad feeling you anticipate that might not even come after all.

The thing why i mentioned pregalabine is because i also have used that alot but not because of addiction ,but for the withdrawal of ghb combined with baclofen . I am pretty sure i used it for quite a time going on and off ghb (only when coming off the ghb) and worked great for the wd part but i never found it that interesting recreationally . My highest dose oral was 450mg i believe , i also tried snorting it that time just to find out it was total waste lmao
But the main point of it all i have had never ever experienced any wd or even rebound related symptoms after some months on and off usage.
Same goes for baclofen, thats why i asked if pregalabine would be worth it because i don't honestly have problems with that medication .

 

[Kizaru]

Bupe is theorized to have "antidepressant" properties due to it's kappa antagonism....

So one company tried to market a form of bupe that just worked on the kappa receptors.. but it failed & never made it to market.


Most likely because all opioids have antidepressant properties. And the antidepressant properties are most likely more related to the mu-receptor.
Im in my opinion & experience, most do. Heroin & tramadol definitely had antidepressant effects on me as well. As in they relieved my depression greater than most other things.

So, technically, buprenorphine is no more an "antidepressant" than any other opioid would be.
So if you get bad depression after any opioid use, you'll most likely get it after bupe use as well.

So you think bupe has any specific different anti depressant effect like lets say tramadol with its snri properties? I bet the anti depressant effect of full opioide agonist must be great but obviously also the reason why they so addictive

 

[SpiralusSancti]

Now if you took 4-8mg of any other opioid, it wouldn't cover all the opioid receptors in your body. Full agonists aren't meant to. If every opioid receptor in your body was completely covered in heroin, you'd die.

What about if it would affect receptor for only a second or millisecond? All of them but for such a short time, I think drug like that can be created that's not automatically lethal, but that's just guessing. But taking a few times the dose of such a drug and multiplying how long effects last would be for sure I guess.

no length of time away from opioids ever makes me feel better again.

You know the best for yourself but I guess it more no amount of time worth waiting would make you feel fine.. Idk if you ever heard that as much time you spent destroying yourself with some drug is as much as you'll need to recover and I think there's some truth in that.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

I am not afraid of being sick or anything , i am used to horrible ghb withdrawal which is gaba b receptor related and i would take any opioide wd compared to the insane anxiety of gaba wd .
But i dont know how horrible heroïne wd could be though ..

Well a lot of people say GHB addiction is worse, especially if not comparing to opiate addiction coupled with needle.
I personally find benzo WDs worse than opiate WDs. But than again I had used benzos a lot more reckless than I ever did opiates and I really have no intention to find out how nuch worse it can get.