Bupe Suboxone as an antidepressant need help plz !

[Kizaru]

But you have a lot of receptors so as you go down, fewer and fewer are occupied. Bup doesn't irreversibly bind, it does detach and can attach to a different opiate receptor.

Most sources i read it still days withdrawal is less then full agonist opioides . The withdrawal might take longer but then you just taper more slow not?

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

7-Hydroxymitragynine, like mitragynine, appears to be a mixed opioid receptor agonist/antagonist, acting as a partial agonist at µ-opioid receptors and as a competitive antagonist at δ- and κ-opioid receptors.[11][12] It also acts on alpha 2 adrenergic and 5-HT2A receptors.

This is from wikipedia . It does not state its a full MU agonist .

"Mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine, the two alkaloids mainly responsible for the effects of kratom, are selective and full agonists of the μ-subtype opioid receptor (MOR)."

Kratom (Mitragyna speciosa) drug profile | www.emcdda.europa.eu

Kratom drug profile Chemistry Physical form Pharmacology Origin Mode of use Other names Analysis Typical potency

www.emcdda.europa.eu

Granted Wikepedia is more credible & Kratom obviously isn't a full agonist by experience, but this isn't the only site I've come across that keeps calling it a full agonist, or at least it's metabolite.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

I rate bupe a really shitty antidepressant (might get you in a bit better mood than most people if you’re using it for pain too). Just about any non-SSRI/SNRI antidepressant is better. Including but not limited to just about any other opiod and just about any NMDA antagonist, hell even fucking benzos.

Also many bupe users get sick of it and on it pretty fast, trz to fix things by increasing dose and end up even worse. By sick I mean exactly like few people on BL described it, getting initial goodish feeling for an hour or a few and than you feel miserable until your next dose.

 

[AlsoTapered]

Buprenorphine simply produced unmanageable levels of anxiety at any dose above 2mg. But then oxycodone gives me anxiety (those limits the dose I can tolerate). I'm GUESSING that buprenorphine increases levels of norepinephrine and dopamine which I suppose produces antidepressant effects in some people.

 

[Kizaru]

I rate bupe a really shitty antidepressant (might get you in a bit better mood than most people if you’re using it for pain too). Just about any non-SSRI/SNRI antidepressant is better. Including but not limited to just about any other opiod and just about any NMDA antagonist, hell even fucking benzos.

Also many bupe users get sick of it and on it pretty fast, trz to fix things by increasing dose and end up even worse. By sick I mean exactly like few people on BL described it, getting initial goodish feeling for an hour or a few and than you feel miserable until your next dose.

How the hell is bupe less effective then just about any non ssri/snri . Thats just a blanked statement concluded out of nothing bupe is being evaluated in the treatment of TRD and its now the mest medication i had so far . Nothing is without consequences and bupe won't solve everything but it sure helped me immense in times i needed unlike literally every other ssri or non ssri .

 

[AlsoTapered]

How the hell is bupe less effective then just about any non ssri/snri . Thats just a blanked statement concluded out of nothing bupe is being evaluated in the treatment of TRD and its now the mest medication i had so far . Nothing is without consequences and bupe won't solve everything but it sure helped me immense in times i needed unlike literally every other ssri or non ssri .

The poster makes clear that it's just personal experience although the 'many bupe users' SHOULD have a reference.

 

[Kizaru]

The poster makes clear that it's just personal experience although the 'many bupe users' SHOULD have a reference.

But better then about every non ssri , like what meds exactly are better ? I also state my personal experience with both medications . Wellbutrin/mirtazapine/paxil/snri .

 

[Kizaru]

The poster makes clear that it's just personal experience although the 'many bupe users' SHOULD have a reference.

But i dunno i do feel it helped me more with addiction then depression . It eases depression a little at the beginning mainly because it still a partial opioide agonist . Its just i have never had any luck with any other medication so far .

 

[AlsoTapered]

But i dunno i do feel it helped me more with addiction then depression . It eases depression a little at the beginning mainly because it still a partial opioide agonist . Its just i have never had any luck with any other medication so far .

I did find that in just 7 days I could just stop using buprenorphine and my dependence had vanished. I am interested in people who consume buprenorphine for years. An Australian BLer mentioned a buprenorphine implant that (s)he received and had been on the same dose for over 2 years.

Is that buprenorphine dependence or are the symptoms they suffered without buprenorphine derived from depression?

BTW I have mentioned it before but the Chinese are currently testing thienorphine. It's duration of action is such that it could be given every 2 or 3 days... but I suspect that it's active metabolite northienorphine is a FULL agonist (as is norbuprenorphine). The difference is that the LogP of northienorphine makes the action of it's metabolite more of an issue.

I don't know if the action of northienorphine has ever been explored so I can only base my opinion on calculated physical data.

 

[Kizaru]

I did find that in just 7 days I could just stop using buprenorphine and my dependence had vanished. I am interested in people who consume buprenorphine for years. An Australian BLer mentioned a buprenorphine implant that (s)he received and had been on the same dose for over 2 years.

Is that buprenorphine dependence or are the symptoms they suffered without buprenorphine derived from depression?

BTW I have mentioned it before but the Chinese are currently testing thienorphine. It's duration of action is such that it could be given every 2 or 3 days... but I suspect that it's active metabolite northienorphine is a FULL agonist (as is norbuprenorphine). The difference is that the LogP of northienorphine makes the action of it's metabolite more of an issue.

I don't know if the action of northienorphine has ever been explored so I can only base my opinion on calculated physical data.

I did find that in just 7 days I could just stop using buprenorphine and my dependence had vanished. I am interested in people who consume buprenorphine for years. An Australian BLer mentioned a buprenorphine implant that (s)he received and had been on the same dose for over 2 years.

Is that buprenorphine dependence or are the symptoms they suffered without buprenorphine derived from depression?

BTW I have mentioned it before but the Chinese are currently testing thienorphine. It's duration of action is such that it could be given every 2 or 3 days... but I suspect that it's active metabolite northienorphine is a FULL agonist (as is norbuprenorphine). The difference is that the LogP of northienorphine makes the action of it's metabolite more of an issue.

I don't know if the action of northienorphine has ever been explored so I can only base my opinion on calculated physical data.

Buprenorphine simply produced unmanageable levels of anxiety at any dose above 2mg. But then oxycodone gives me anxiety (those limits the dose I can tolerate). I'm GUESSING that buprenorphine increases levels of norepinephrine and dopamine which I suppose produces antidepressant effects in some people.

Ik think i have the same if i dose to high (nasal roa) everything over 1mg and to much side effects . But for opioide dependancy the doses are alot higher then for the reasons i use it .

 

[AlsoTapered]

Thanks for the... err... quote?

 

[Kizaru]

Thanks for the... err... quote?

Yeah i know sometimes i am completely tripping on this forum and don't know how to delete . It looks like its bugged sometimes or my brain is just fried atm..

 

[SpiralusSancti]

I did find that in just 7 days I could just stop using buprenorphine and my dependence had vanished. I am interested in people who consume buprenorphine for years. An Australian BLer mentioned a buprenorphine implant that (s)he received and had been on the same dose for over 2 years.

Is that buprenorphine dependence or are the symptoms they suffered without buprenorphine derived from depression?

BTW I have mentioned it before but the Chinese are currently testing thienorphine. It's duration of action is such that it could be given every 2 or 3 days... but I suspect that it's active metabolite northienorphine is a FULL agonist (as is norbuprenorphine). The difference is that the LogP of northienorphine makes the action of it's metabolite more of an issue.

I don't know if the action of northienorphine has ever been explored so I can only base my opinion on calculated physical data.

That’s how bupe should be used (up to few weeks top!). All other is, off the book/script or however you say it use. Fact that it’s now widely used as maintenance drug doesn’t make it good for that (morphine is waaaaaaay better for that use). Beside jumping to it like you did and doing fast tapper it’s also good for some cases of pain (especially in patch form).

As for antidepressant use, well, yeah, it probably works the way you described it + opiods are goodish antidepressant even by their primary action. But than, fuck it, I would say tramadolum is 10x better for that use (for those who can limit it to 400mg max)… It beats bupe in almost any way if not used in high doses (if used in high doses bupe is than ofc definitely better go to for any opiod use).

 

[Kizaru]

That’s how bupe should be used (up to few weeks top!). All other is, off the book/script or however you say it use. Fact that it’s now widely used as maintenance drug doesn’t make it good for that (morphine is waaaaaaay better for that use). Beside jumping to it like you did and doing fast tapper it’s also good for some cases of pain (especially in patch form).

As for antidepressant use, well, yeah, it probably works the way you described it + opiods are goodish antidepressant even by their primary action. But than, fuck it, I would say tramadolum is 10x better for that use (for those who can limit it to 400mg max)… It beats bupe in almost any way if not used in high doses (if used in high doses bupe is than ofc definitely better go to for any opiod use).

Is morphine ever used as a maintenance drug ?

 

[Kizaru]

That’s how bupe should be used (up to few weeks top!). All other is, off the book/script or however you say it use. Fact that it’s now widely used as maintenance drug doesn’t make it good for that (morphine is waaaaaaay better for that use). Beside jumping to it like you did and doing fast tapper it’s also good for some cases of pain (especially in patch form).

As for antidepressant use, well, yeah, it probably works the way you described it + opiods are goodish antidepressant even by their primary action. But than, fuck it, I would say tramadolum is 10x better for that use (for those who can limit it to 400mg max)… It beats bupe in almost any way if not used in high doses (if used in high doses bupe is than ofc definitely better go to for any opiod use).

I absolutely find tramadol shit . I am now tapering suboxone and all is fine . I don't understand all the hate suboxone gets .

 

[SpiralusSancti]

Is morphine ever used as a maintenance drug ?

MST (usually up to 400mg but 600mg wasn’t unheard) was quite widely used (for HC cases where methadone didn’t cut it) in my country before bupe became a thing, even for some years after that. I’m in EU. It was also used as intermediate (wrong word I know) when transferring form methadone to bupe and in some other case.

Back in the day it was quite easy to score MST as many junkies were selling it to get H anyway and so definitely helped to ruin it for those who used it properly.

Last time I got MST was around 2016 and I was told it was from someone who gets it as maintenance. Before 2010 it was somewhat common...well nowhere near common as methadone or bupe but was used as GOOD last resort.

Bupe fucked up thing in my country, both for casual users, junkies and young folks getting into drugs. I’m generation that got bupe instead H way too often and more troubling way too easy.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

I absolutely find tramadol shit . I am now tapering suboxone and all is fine . I don't understand all the hate suboxone gets .

Well my hate toward bupe is that it created a generation of junkies out of young folks that might have not even become junkies if it wasn’t there. And a lot more concerning that.

As for tramadol, I get it, many don’t like it, replace tramadol by some other opiod and it’ll probably outperform bupe in almost everything.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

And just to be clear, bupe wasn’t mine ruin but as a teen I saw too many of those whose it was.

 

[AlsoTapered]

That’s how bupe should be used (up to few weeks top!). All other is, off the book/script or however you say it use. Fact that it’s now widely used as maintenance drug doesn’t make it good for that (morphine is waaaaaaay better for that use). Beside jumping to it like you did and doing fast tapper it’s also good for some cases of pain (especially in patch form).

As for antidepressant use, well, yeah, it probably works the way you described it + opiods are goodish antidepressant even by their primary action. But than, fuck it, I would say tramadolum is 10x better for that use (for those who can limit it to 400mg max)… It beats bupe in almost any way if not used in high doses (if used in high doses bupe is than ofc definitely better go to for any opiod use).

When Bentley et al discovered the partial agonist nature of buprenorphine, their paper specifically cites it's possible utility in 'detoxification' of opioid-dependent individuals.

But do you know what I find interesting? All of the modern formulations cite it's use in long-term pain management and by pure coincidence, none of them EVER cite the work of Bentley.

It's exactly the same with fentanyl, a short-acting opioid developed by Janssen Pharmaceutica specifically for use in surgical anesthesia. But somehow THAT has also been forgotten.

But then a drug intended to be used for a few weeks in the former case and only for general anesthesia in the latter case does rather limit potential sales. But it isn't like Bentley or Janssen were altruistic, they were both commercial chemists whose work was intended to produce the maximum profit so without a shadow of doubt they considered these drug in the context of long-term use but the unsuitability was so evident that they could not even suggest either drug for long-term use.

But this was back in the 1960s when the research chemists had the final say. Since the 1980s, management teams with NO education in medicine became the ones whose opinion mattered the most.

OT Upjohn was acquired PURELY to gain the patent rights to alprazolam. Within a year, a new edition of the DSM was published in which 'generalized anxiety disorder' was first listed as a specific condition. Within three months of publication, alprazolam was granted a market licence for the treatment of generalized anxiety disorder.

I can understand why people use the term 'big pharma' but they don't appear to recognise that medicinal chemists simply design the drugs, they have no say in how those drugs are developed within the market.

 

[Kizaru]

Well my hate toward bupe is that it created a generation of junkies out of young folks that might have not even become junkies if it wasn’t there. And a lot more concerning that.

As for tramadol, I get it, many don’t like it, replace tramadol by some other opiod and it’ll probably outperform bupe in almost everything.

But i don't rlly understand you , do you mean people get addicted to bupe ? How is bupe addictive? And how can morphine be a maintenance drug if its on par with heroïne ? I thought the whole purpose of of a maintenance drug is something that removes wd and doesnt give a high . What do you mean with generation of junkies?