Bupe Suboxone as an antidepressant need help plz !

[Kizaru]

Well my hate toward bupe is that it created a generation of junkies out of young folks that might have not even become junkies if it wasn’t there. And a lot more concerning that.

As for tramadol, I get it, many don’t like it, replace tramadol by some other opiod and it’ll probably outperform bupe in almost everything.

I could never believe bupe causing more harm/damage then actual heroïne

 

[AlsoTapered]

But i don't rlly understand you , do you mean people get addicted to bupe ? How is bupe addictive? And how can morphine be a maintenance drug if its on par with heroïne ? I thought the whole purpose of of a maintenance drug is something that removes wd and doesnt give a high . What do you mean with generation of junkies?

I know several people who are prescribed morphine for maintenance. In one case it was because methadone resulted in them having a heart attack. The others just had serious problems with methadone such as long delays in onset, low bioavailability and short duration of action. All known issues with methadone. That's why when it was introduced in 1942, it was only ever administered parenterally (injected, I believe). All have been on morphine for decades. LONG before buprenorphine was granted a market licence.

 

[Kizaru]

I know several people who are prescribed morphine for maintenance. In one case it was because methadone resulted in them having a heart attack. The others just had serious problems with methadone such as long delays in onset, low bioavailability and short duration of action. All known issues with methadone. That's why when it was introduced in 1942, it was only ever administered parenterally (injected, I believe). All have been on morphine for decades. LONG before buprenorphine was granted a market licence.

Yeah in some cases , but if you would give anyone morphine you wouldn't think every one would abuse it hardcore ? Isn't bupe like way way less addictive ?

 

[AlsoTapered]

Yeah in some cases , but if you would give anyone morphine you wouldn't think every one would abuse it hardcore ? Isn't bupe like way way less addictive ?

Well apparently it causes less physical dependence. Addiction is quite another thing. None of these people are getting some HUGE dose of morphine you know. I believe 30mg 'wets' in most cases,

Now, considering a £10 bag of H of 50% purity equates to 100mg of morphine (and has a much faster onset and is more euphoric), 30mg isn't really very much. It's about the same as chronic administration of 30mg methadone/day.

It's also a LOT more hassle for them so I believe them when they tell me that 'I just couldn't make methadone work for me'.

Two of them are qualified drug councillors, one VERY senior to the extent that if you are in the UK and read HR literature, you will almost certainly know of him. He travels around the world setting up HR services in developing nations.

 

[Kizaru]

Well apparently it causes less physical dependence. Addiction is quite another thing. None of these people are getting some HUGE dose of morphine you know. I believe 30mg 'wets' in most cases,

Now, considering a £10 bag of H of 50% purity equates to 100mg of morphine (and has a much faster onset and is more euphoric), 30mg isn't really very much. It's about the same as chronic administration of 30mg methadone/day.

It's also a LOT more hassle for them so I believe them when they tell me that 'I just couldn't make methadone work for me'.

Two of them are qualified drug councillors, one VERY senior to the extent that if you are in the UK and read HR literature, you will almost certainly know of him. He travels around the world setting up HR services in developing nations.

I don't think bupe is that addictive . I am pretty sure i would be hooked instantly to moprhine . I do feel bupe is more addicitve then kratom is though and with addiction i mean psychological addiction .

 

[AlsoTapered]

I don't think bupe is that addictive . I am pretty sure i would be hooked instantly to moprhine . I do feel bupe is more addicitve then kratom is though and with addiction i mean psychological addiction .

Guess all you like. You don't know unless you actually try it.

Morphine has no effect on me whatsoever. In fact, it's even in my medical records. Their is a recognized issue but unless you wish to discuss liver enzymes in some depth, I don't think it's of much interest. But in short - my body metabolises phenolic opioids because my DNA has 2 copies of a specific enzyme production codon.

It's important because some other medications also get metabolised just as fast.

 

[Kizaru]

Guess all you like. You don't know unless you actually try it.

Morphine has no effect on me whatsoever. In fact, it's even in my medical records. Their is a recognized issue but unless you wish to discuss liver enzymes in some depth, I don't think it's of much interest. But in short - my body metabolises phenolic opioids because my DNA has 2 copies of a specific enzyme production codon.

It's important because some other medications also get metabolised just as fast.

Well you ever tried IV morphine?

 

[AlsoTapered]

Well you ever tried IV morphine?

I've had several major surgeries (e.g. total hip replacements) where morphine was provided for pain control. Nothing. I didn't cry, I didn't scream, I was simply rigid and silent. In EVERY case my wife walked in, demanded to see the registrar and then politely asked him to READ my medical record.

So I was given IV methadone, which worked.

But EVERY SINGLE TIME? I've had a LOT of surgeries. 12 or 14, I don't remember. I mean, I don't celebrate them or anything,

If it wasn't for her, I would have to obtain methadone, base it into powder and smuggle it in which isn't something I would wish to do. I am very law abiding.

I don't drink alcohol, I do smoke tobacco a little, I only take prescribed medicines AS prescribed. It's called 'getting old'. I've made it to 52 but I don't THINK I will ever see a pension.

 

[Kizaru]

I've had several major surgeries (e.g. total hip replacements) where morphine was provided for pain control. Nothing. I didn't cry, I didn't scream, I was simply rigid and silent. In EVERY case my wife walked in, demanded to see the registrar and then politely asked him to READ my medical record.

So I was given IV methadone, which worked.

But EVERY SINGLE TIME? I've had a LOT of surgeries. 12 or 14, I don't remember. I mean, I don't celebrate them or anything,

If it wasn't for her, I would have to obtain methadone, base it into powder and smuggle it in which isn't something I would wish to do. I am very law abiding.

I don't drink alcohol, I do smoke tobacco a little, I only take prescribed medicines AS prescribed. It's called 'getting old'. I've made it to 52 but I don't THINK I will ever see a pension.

Ok i see so you have alot of chronic pain issues ?

 

[AlsoTapered]

Ok i see so you have alot of chronic pain issues ?

Yeah - I was in a chemical explosion (which did it's fair share of damage) and inhaled some rather unhealthy fumes which has resulted in avascular necrosis in all the major joints in my body.

So I'm prescribed oxycodone which HALF works.

Why half? Because 10% of oxycodone is O-demethylated to oxymorphone which is x10 oxycodone in analgesic activity... BUT it's phenolic! So 80mg of OC provides the analgesia any normal person would get from 40mg.

I did consider asking to be swapped to Physeptone (methadone tablets) but I keep hearing stories of the NHS simply running out of stock... and NOOOO they cannot simply give me the linctus instead. The tablets are exclusively for pain, the linctus is exclusively for opioid dependence.

Isn't the NHS just fantastic.

Why do you think i (re)discovered U-47700? Certainly not to 'catch a buzz'. So if I seem hyperfocussd on opioids, their is a reason.

fast&bulbous designed MXE (I checked - F&B IS the inventor) and he suffers from phantom limb pain so HE'S in pain all the time and opioids do not help AT ALL. So he simply designed an NMDA antagonist... as you do.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

I could never believe bupe causing more harm/damage then actual heroïne

Well you would be surprised. If bupe didn’t hit the market I’m positive that a lot less people where I am would even try opiods as heroin maybe wasn’t scarce but was definitely distributed in closed circles of, well, people who were usually HC junkies, sure sometimes other drug users (be it stoners, ravers or whatever) would get hook up for heroin but cuz if catched with any amount heroin you used to go to jail almost for sure plus you can bet almost any junkie or even somewhat responsible users of heroin rather didn’t connect people with source and than bam, everyone got bupe, and loads of it. In a matter of months enormous number of people had enough bupe every day to get many people without tolerance high as fuck. It’s hard to understand this situation as you probably ain’t from country without street dealers, open drug markets, just a short history of serious problems with opiod use (as it sky-rocketed in 90s after war) and many other factors contributing to FACT (just about any person I know, be it addict or recreational user) agrees that bupe done more harm than damage.

As for adictivity of bupe vs. morphine. I find bupe has worse WDs, if you count in they are a lot longer I would say even far worse.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

O yeah, if you mean of actual heroin as some shitty mix on the street, sure it’s a lot more damaging than bupe, if you think of pharma grade I’m willing to bet (given same ROA) that heroin is safer and “healthier” option.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

But i don't rlly understand you , do you mean people get addicted to bupe ? How is bupe addictive? And how can morphine be a maintenance drug if its on par with heroïne ? I thought the whole purpose of of a maintenance drug is something that removes wd and doesnt give a high . What do you mean with generation of junkies?

MST prescribed comes in SR formulations and if you have serious opiod habit (and you must have to get it) even few hundred mg used orally as SR formulations won’t get you proper high even compared to rather small amount of I.V. heroin (think of just a few tens of mg few times a day make and that’s nothing compared to what some people use).

Yeah bupe is definitely addictive and in that new generation/wave of junkies there was loads of people who got hooked to bupe without ever trying heroin (or any proper opiod) and also loads of people whose only opiod use was bupe.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

Also you seem to forget about millions of people using morphine purely for pain some of who have in in doses in hundreds of mg in SR form who basically don’t get any high from it. While they, cuz of tolerance don’t feel high (or get just slight effects), pain is still removed. Sure most don’t stay on morphine long enough to require more than one 100 or 200mg pill per day.

 

[Kizaru]

MST prescribed comes in SR formulations and if you have serious opiod habit (and you must have to get it) even few hundred mg used orally as SR formulations won’t get you proper high even compared to rather small amount of I.V. heroin (think of just a few tens of mg few times a day make and that’s nothing compared to what some people use).

Yeah bupe is definitely addictive and in that new generation/wave of junkies there was loads of people who got hooked to bupe without ever trying heroin (or any proper opiod) and also loads of people whose only opiod use was bupe.

But if there was heroïne much more people would get addicted .

 

[Kizaru]

O yeah, if you mean of actual heroin as some shitty mix on the street, sure it’s a lot more damaging than bupe, if you think of pharma grade I’m willing to bet (given same ROA) that heroin is safer and “healthier” option.

Yeah pharma grade heroïne is pretty much impossible to get but i seriously doubt that it would be less addictive then bupe , nah sorry i don't buy that . Your statement about people actually using morphine for actual pain doesnt say nothing about addiction . These people do 't get addicted no but we know of this , this is nothing new .

 

[Kizaru]

MST prescribed comes in SR formulations and if you have serious opiod habit (and you must have to get it) even few hundred mg used orally as SR formulations won’t get you proper high even compared to rather small amount of I.V. heroin (think of just a few tens of mg few times a day make and that’s nothing compared to what some people use).

Yeah bupe is definitely addictive and in that new generation/wave of junkies there was loads of people who got hooked to bupe without ever trying heroin (or any proper opiod) and also loads of people whose only opiod use was bupe.

You can't ever get an out of control habit with suboxone because of its ceiling effect , i bet you totally can with pharma grade heroïne . The more clean something is the more addictive it is the more you can totally abuse it since heroïne ain't that bad for the organs .

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

I've been on Suboxone 7 years now.
And while I tend to speak negatively about buprenorphine...
I'd say it's better than any SSNRI for depression (for me).
Although it is theorized that high doses long term of buprenorphine may actually start to block dopamine. This in return creates cravings and relapse since you start to feel like shit all the time.

Buprenorphine is a weak dopamine releaser relative to heroin, but its pretreatment attenuates heroin‐evoked dopamine release in rats

The United States of America is currently in an opioid epidemic. Heroin remains the most lethal opioid option with its death rate increasing by over 500% in the last decade. The rewarding and reinforcing effects of heroin are thought to be mediated by ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Can the chronic administration of the combination of buprenorphine and naloxone block dopaminergic activity causing anti-reward and relapse potential? - PubMed

Opiate addiction is associated with many adverse health and social harms, fatal overdose, infectious disease transmission, elevated health care costs, public disorder, and crime. Although community-based addiction treatment programs continue to reduce the harms of opiate addiction with narcotic...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Honestly, I use to think hydrocodone was even better than buprenorphine (full agonist will always beat partial right?). But I'd say hydrocodone is garbage in comparison to the effects possible with buprenorphine. All the past times where I used hydros over subs for a few days, it felt like my body was still craving buprenorphine, even though I was on a full agonist, which is kind of weird.

It almost feels like bupe has done something to my body & the way I now experience opioids that I use to love.

 

[Kizaru]

I've been on Suboxone 7 years now.
And while I tend to speak negatively about buprenorphine...
I'd say it's better than any SSNRI for depression (for me).
Although it is theorized that high doses long term of buprenorphine may actually start to block dopamine. This in return creates cravings and relapse since you start to feel like shit all the time.

Buprenorphine is a weak dopamine releaser relative to heroin, but its pretreatment attenuates heroin‐evoked dopamine release in rats

The United States of America is currently in an opioid epidemic. Heroin remains the most lethal opioid option with its death rate increasing by over 500% in the last decade. The rewarding and reinforcing effects of heroin are thought to be mediated by ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Can the chronic administration of the combination of buprenorphine and naloxone block dopaminergic activity causing anti-reward and relapse potential? - PubMed

Opiate addiction is associated with many adverse health and social harms, fatal overdose, infectious disease transmission, elevated health care costs, public disorder, and crime. Although community-based addiction treatment programs continue to reduce the harms of opiate addiction with narcotic...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Honestly, I use to think hydrocodone was even better than buprenorphine. But I'd say hydrocodone is garbage in comparison to the effects possible with buprenorphine.

But i thought fentanyl was the leading cause of od ?

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

But i thought fentanyl was the leading cause of od ?

It is.
That's just the government talking out of it's ass.