Mescaline Therapy

[burn out]

Hold on burn, that's changing your point entirely. I can see no end of mystical and spiritual things about psychedelics. I just can't see any in organised religion. You were also claiming that organised religion comes from the same source as psychedelic spirituality, some desire to explain the mind/cosmos. Despite organised religion offering no direct experience of anything spiritual apart from meditation and "here, read this book from 2000 years ago and BELIEVE what it says".

I haven't changed my point at all, youre the one who keeps going off on tangents. I haven't once used the phrase "organized religion" , unless I was quoting you. When I talk about religion, I am referring to the spiritual beliefs and traditions of various cultures and peoples around the globe. Yes, these traditions in some cases gave birth to what may now be referred to as "organized religions", so what? I would also say that you should consider the possibility you are spiritually impaired if you think psychedelics are the only way to have a mystical experience.

Ok, so you've abandoned that argument you've been pushing for the last 3 pages about organised religion being an "attempt to explain the mind/cosmos" that we should treat the same as anything psychedelics can offer us. Now it's bait and switch and moving on to to trying to say all you meant was that psychedelics are spiritual?

LOl, now you're telling me I am abandoning arguments I never made in the first place? What I said was, just like Freud used a model of the, ego ID and superego to lend insight into the workings of the psyche, so also, spiritual traditions, religions, mythologies, have their own stories which are intended to lend insight in the workings of the psyche, life and the cosmos.

If you are unable to understand them, or you prefer to only focus on the negative and corrupt aspects of modern day "organized religions" and ignore the spiritual and mystical roots, that's your choice. But it has nothing to do with my argument.

Not really no, you'd need to give the quote some context. Unless you want to explain what you believe they mean.

And as I've told you before, don't lump all these guys together as one and try and claim they all support your theories. For example, Alan Watts drank himself to a long, slow miserable death on whiskey at the same time as giving lectures on spirituality. So no, learn a little more about these people before you try and reduce them to a one line quote.

How does Alan Watts drinking himself to death (which I was aware of) disprove anything I've said? I used to be a heroin addict, that does invalidate my arguments? Just because someone has spiritual beliefs or ideals, doesn't make them immune to evil or vice.

Hmmm...Could you give one of these alleged "truths" instead of one line quotes from people and then claiming their one line quotes support all the stories in the bible? It's leaps of deranged thinking like this that weaken your argument so catastrophically.

I never claimed that, you are the one who is making deranged leaps. I don't want to see another post from you where you put words in my mouth or even attempt to paraphrase me. This whole thread, you have been unable to refute my point so you have taken to repeatedly trying to go off on tangents making use of straw men and red herrings over and over again.

Science progresses and new things become accepted. Religion doesn't. No-one gets out origin of species and says "That's the word of God and will be true forever".

Religion also progresses, you honestly think religious thought today is the exact same as it was 5,000 years ago? Give me a break. Also, this is not a science vs religion argument.

You seriously believe the eternal truth can be found in bibles and korans?

My personal beliefs aren't whats at stake here. My point was that some facts of life don't change. A lot of things which were true 2,000 years ago are still true today. The human psyche functions the same way it did 2000 years ago today. The Earth orbits the sun the same way it did 2,000 years ago, today. 2 + 2 eqalled 4 2,000 years ago just as it does today. Therefore, lots of ancient wisdom is still as applicable to life today as it was then. Not saying it can't progress , as i said religious thinking does progress. Philosophers, theologians, saints, mystics, etc have been writing about spiritual and religious truths and "progressing" them for the last 2,000 years.

The standard burn out argument policy - pick one line or one person and then claim that supports an entire world view. Back in the 60s a troubled gay guy took psychedelics and became religious after losing his well paid job. It happens. Do you really want to use him to push your arguments?

Absolutely. That's why I said I am on the same page as guys like Ram Daas. If you disagree, fine, but understand I am not the first or the last person to appreciate or see mystical truth in both religion and psychedelics. A lot of very smart, well respected people in the psychedelic community are on my side. thats all Ive been saying.

I've no doubt there's other people who took psychedelics, went to India and came back and never bothered with it again like Ringo.

Speaking at the Grammy Museum, Los Angeles, in February 2010, Starr stated that he had recently returned to monotheism, saying "I stepped off the path there for many years and found my way [back] onto it, thank God."[20]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_the_Beatles

Btw, the fact that some people take psychedelics, become interested in religion and then give it up proves absolutely nothing. You fail at logic.

 

[Bagseed]

Man I would say that was definitely not mescaline... way too cheap for it to be that intense of a trip. Between the cactus and chemicals to extract it, a 13 hour mescaline trip would have costed wayyyyy more than $12.50, more like $25-$35 or more per pill. I would have bet money it was some nasty RC, I hate RC's.

Also it leaves you feeling rejuvenated and replenished the next day (me right now%)) but then again the post trip depression could have been caused from the xanax.

My friend was offered "mescaline powder" at a party once and it turned out to be 2C-I. Low and behold he had a seizure in front of everyone. People are fucking scumbags

also, "small amount" makes it pretty impossible for it to be mescaline, since the dose for strong experiences is a couple hundred mg...

 

[Ismene]

How religious are you burn out? Creationist? Anti-abortion? You argue a lot like extremely religious americans.

 

[Mescaline Man]

On a Bridgesii trip this weekend I had the breakthrough I have been waiting for. It was the strongest mescaline trip I have ever had. I have been experimenting with mescaline to change my perspective on anxiety and help me develop coping mechanisms. This weekend's trip did exactly that.

It is very frustrating for me when people say, "there's no reason for you to have anxiety" or "there is nothing to be anxious about". I had never been able to convince myself that enough to make the anxiety symptoms disappear. Until this weekend.

As many of you know, the come-up of any psychedelic can cause some anxiety. Because this was the strongest dose I had ever done, I wasn't sure what to expect. On the come-up I suddenly got the feeling of "oh god what have I gotten myself into". The anxiety came on strong, and it was the classic anxiety feelings I know oh so well Well before long, I realized that there was no reason for the anxiety (seems simple, but I had never truly believed it). By repeating in my head "For what" "For what" I could control the anxiety 100%!!! I was able to view the experience as practice, and I even began to enjoy the feelings of anxiety because I could make them disappear in an instant by telling myself I had nothing to fear! After many many rounds of practice, I had it ingrained in my mind that I could control the anxiety symptoms by controlling my thoughts, (Again it seems so simple, but I had to experience it to believe I could do it).

2 Days later and my anxiety is light years better!!! I have learned that immediately upon feeling any anxiety symptoms, I simply need to say "hey, there it is, but FOR WHAT REASON?" and the feelings dissipate! This was the single trip I have been looking for over the past 2 years, and it was one of the best experiences of my life.

After the come-up, I watched parks and rec for 5 hours and laughed the entire time. The outlines of everything had turned rainbow, and people's eyes were almost see-through. Super cool visuals were a nice bonus for this wonderful trip.

 

[burn out]

How religious are you burn out? Creationist? Anti-abortion? You argue a lot like extremely religious americans.

I told you already, I like the idea of a Creator or "Supreme Principle". But I'm not trying to convince you agree with me or my views. I see each individual as "island universe" to borrow a term from Huxely, we each live in our own version of reality. Whats true for one person, isn't necessarily true for another.

The point I have been trying to get across is that tried and true, ancient techniques, such as meditation, yoga, prayer, contemplation, and the reading of sacred writing can be of value, at least to some, on the spiritual path, as can psychedelics. They can even enhance each other. I am not very interested in trying to prove that assertion either. It's good enough for me to say that a lot of the respected psyhedelic users and researchers agree with me on this. If you disagree with us, fine, I don't care, maybe we're all nuts. Or maybe, you don't understand everything as well as you think.

I will say, the arguments you have tried to put forward against me have been generally quite weak. You can't refute my point, you continually try to divert the discussion. I mean, seriously, abortion? Once again, you bring up something that's got nothing to do with this discussion. If you really think you're right, why do you keep needing to twist what I say or come up with red herrings and straw men?

 

[psy997]

Great posts burn out.

 

[Ismene]

I told you already, I like the idea of a Creator or "Supreme Principle".

So you are a fundamentalist christian. Must admit I only know two other people who read the bible when they trip and they're both hardcore fundamentalists. I guess that's why you picked Darwins name when you tried to say scientific writing is no different to the Bible.

It's no problem, but arguing with creationist fundamentalists is always a little pointless because blind belief always comes before truth. I certainly wouldn't have wasted my time if I'd known.

 

[TheBlackPirate]

repeating in my head

This is an astute observation. I have also learned repeated "trigger words" influence mood both now and later. This works positively and the other way.

 

[psy997]

So you are a fundamentalist christian. Must admit I only know two other people who read the bible when they trip and they're both hardcore fundamentalists. I guess that's why you picked Darwins name when you tried to say scientific writing is no different to the Bible.

It's no problem, but arguing with creationist fundamentalists is always a little pointless because blind belief always comes before truth. I certainly wouldn't have wasted my time if I'd known.

You are projecting so much it's not even funny.

 

[Mescaline Man]

This is an astute observation. I have also learned repeated "trigger words" influence mood both now and later. This works positively and the other way.

What do you mean by trigger words? I'm glad I'm not alone here

 

[burn out]

So you are a fundamentalist christian. Must admit I only know two other people who read the bible when they trip and they're both hardcore fundamentalists. I guess that's why you picked Darwins name when you tried to say scientific writing is no different to the Bible.

It's no problem, but arguing with creationist fundamentalists is always a little pointless because blind belief always comes before truth. I certainly wouldn't have wasted my time if I'd known.

Yes, like psy997 said you have projected so many of your beliefs and assumptions onto me throughout this whole thread that I've had to spend far more time saying what I don't believe than what I actually do.. I told you on the first page that I believed in a Creator and that I read the Bible, but you only just concluded that I am a "fundamentalist Christian"? Lol, impressive deductive skills you've got there. I can see why you like to enter into debates and show them off.

Also, while you are free to label me as a fundamentalist Christian in (perhaps that is what I am to you or the box you want to put me in) I seriously doubt that many other people would call me that.

It's shocking to me that you don't already know this but let me tell you that very few fundamentalist Christians (at least the type im familiar with) take psychedelics and are enthusiastic about peyote ceremonies. Very few fundamentalist Christians study shamanism. Very few fundamentalist Christians enjoy Timothy Leary's take on the universe.

I'll admit that I am a spiritual dude. I have searched the world over for truth, put it before everything and what do you know? I found truth in the Holy Bible. But that isn't the only place where I found truth. I also found truth in the Tao Te Chring, in Buddhist and Hindu thought. I found truth in the nature based teachings of the Native Americans. I found truth in the ancient goddess religions. I found truth in the writings of histories famous saints and mystics, poets and holy bards. I found truth in modern spiritual teachers like adyashanti, mooji and Bentinho Massaro) I found truth in books by Timothy Leary and Ram Daas and Stanislof Grof. I found truth in observing nature (and experiencing nature on psychedelics), and I found truth in myself. Somehow all these diverse ideas all made sense to me in their own way. It made sense to me that different people would see and describe truth differently, because I can see things from so many different perspectives myself and each person represents another point of view on this infinite existence. I have great respect for all these different religions and teachings and I've learned many spiritual lessons through them.

Now I am going to say, if that makes me a fundamnetalist Christian, then I am damn proud to be a fundamentalist Christian and I am here to say that we need more fundamentalist Christians in this world.

i am not however the sort of Fundamentalist Christian who supports folks like Donald Trump or Ted Cruz or sees anything "Christian" about what they represent. I am not the sort of fundamentalist Christian who thinks everyone outside of their church is going to hell and any spiritual practice not sanctioned by their church is of the devil. I do believe in reverence and respect for the sacred and for what is sacred to others (you and I obviously differ on that point) and I am especially fond of Jesus Christ.

 

[burn out]

Great posts burn out.

Thank you.

 

[Ismene]

I found truth in the Holy Bible.

Did you find truth in Darwin?

Now I am going to say, if that makes me a fundamnetalist Christian, then I am damn proud to be a fundamentalist Christian and I am here to say that we need more fundamentalist Christians in this world. i am not however the sort of Fundamentalist Christian who supports folks like Donald Trump

Are you a creationist?

 

[Ismene]

You are projecting so much it's not even funny.

Explain.

 

[red22]

his wife is very anti-drugs

source?

 

[Shamandrums]

Awesome tale, MM!

On a Bridgesii trip this weekend I had the breakthrough I have been waiting for. It was the strongest mescaline trip I have ever had. I have been experimenting with mescaline to change my perspective on anxiety and help me develop coping mechanisms. This weekend's trip did exactly that.

It is very frustrating for me when people say, "there's no reason for you to have anxiety" or "there is nothing to be anxious about". I had never been able to convince myself that enough to make the anxiety symptoms disappear. Until this weekend.

As many of you know, the come-up of any psychedelic can cause some anxiety. Because this was the strongest dose I had ever done, I wasn't sure what to expect. On the come-up I suddenly got the feeling of "oh god what have I gotten myself into". The anxiety came on strong, and it was the classic anxiety feelings I know oh so well Well before long, I realized that there was no reason for the anxiety (seems simple, but I had never truly believed it). By repeating in my head "For what" "For what" I could control the anxiety 100%!!! I was able to view the experience as practice, and I even began to enjoy the feelings of anxiety because I could make them disappear in an instant by telling myself I had nothing to fear! After many many rounds of practice, I had it ingrained in my mind that I could control the anxiety symptoms by controlling my thoughts, (Again it seems so simple, but I had to experience it to believe I could do it).

2 Days later and my anxiety is light years better!!! I have learned that immediately upon feeling any anxiety symptoms, I simply need to say "hey, there it is, but FOR WHAT REASON?" and the feelings dissipate! This was the single trip I have been looking for over the past 2 years, and it was one of the best experiences of my life.

After the come-up, I watched parks and rec for 5 hours and laughed the entire time. The outlines of everything had turned rainbow, and people's eyes were almost see-through. Super cool visuals were a nice bonus for this wonderful trip.

Mesc the Man....Awesome stuff, glad to hear it bro... High just reading your tale of break thru result of the intention you set, brilliant. Intent is huge... Nothing like a truly healing experience, as McKenna would say, it's great when you can bring the lesson back & apply it in everyday life pronto, this is the advantage of psychedelics (rough quote). This is a one more big reason I don't believe anti-depressant/benzo therapy (some exceptions yes), in the long run at least & hopefully soon won't be the only go to treatment available legally/practically! That it requires often weeks / endless daily ingestion of toxic & addictive drugs (& after prolonged use, tricyclics are very much so 8( I can attest to) & these rarely have this kind of result, especially in their absence a day or 3 later.

Ya, ppl who don't have anxiety or depression/PTSD at some point, like a trip one hasn't ever had: they can't believe it exists or has validity of urgency, tho you'd hope with all the info out there these days, this would be less so. Cool descriptions of your un quest for spiritual & therapeutic reset w/psychedelics so big thanks for this post as well... %) Peace of Life
ps- How much did you take .

 

[burn out]

Did you find truth in Darwin?

I never claimed to have read Darwin. Actually I did read some in college, but I can't say I remember it particularly well. This was also before I took psychedelics and I was an atheist materialist at the time. As far as truth in Darwin, yes of course there is truth in Darwin's points of viiew and obversations.

here is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one;and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.—Charles Darwin, he Origin of Species

Yes, exactly Mr. Darwin. The Supreme Being manifests as infinite multiplicity, the play of endless forms. Evolution.


Now I am going to say, if that makes me a fundamnetalist Christian, then I am damn proud to be a fundamentalist Christian and I am here to say that we need more fundamentalist Christians in this world. i am not however the sort of Fundamentalist Christian who supports folks like Donald Trump

Are you a creationist?

You mean a young earth Creationist who believes everything was made as is 6,000 years ago? No, I believe the creative process is the evolutionary process. There was a Catholic theologian who wrote a lot about this idea (which was also the view held by Timothy Leary incidentally) but his name is escaping me at the moment. Its certainly not an idea that is foreign to Christian thought though, as he was praised by Pope Benedict (fairly recent pope).



Here are the first couple paragraphs to Leary's "declaration of evolution":

The Declaration of Evolution
When in the course of organic evolution it becomes obvious that a mutational process is inevitably dissolving the physical and neurological bonds which connect the members of one generation to the past and inevitably directing them to assume among the species of Earth the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and Nature's God entitle them, a decent concern for the harmony of species requires that the causes of the mutation should be declared.

We hold these truths to be self evident:

That all species are created different but equal;
That they are endowed, each one, with certain inalienable rights;
That among them are Freedom to Live, Freedom to Grow, and Freedom to pursue Happiness in their own style;
That to protect these God-given rights, social structures naturally emerge, basing their authority on the principles of love of God and respect for all forms of life;
That whenever any form of government becomes destructive of life, liberty, and harmony, it is the organic duty of the young members of that species to mutate, to drop out, to initiate a new social structure, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its power in such form as seems likely to produce the safety, happiness, and harmony of all sentient beings.

read more at: http://deoxy.org/dec_evo.htm

 

[Mescaline Man]

Mesc the Man....Awesome stuff, glad to hear it bro... High just reading your tale of break thru result of the intention you set, brilliant. Intent is huge... Nothing like a truly healing experience, as McKenna would say, it's great when you can bring the lesson back & apply it in everyday life pronto, this is the advantage of psychedelics (rough quote). This is a one more big reason I don't believe anti-depressant/benzo therapy (some exceptions yes), in the long run at least & hopefully soon won't be the only go to treatment available legally/practically! That it requires often weeks / endless daily ingestion of toxic & addictive drugs (& after prolonged use, tricyclics are very much so 8( I can attest to) & these rarely have this kind of result, especially in their absence a day or 3 later.

Ya, ppl who don't have anxiety or depression/PTSD at some point, like a trip one hasn't ever had: they can't believe it exists or has validity of urgency, tho you'd hope with all the info out there these days, this would be less so. Cool descriptions of your un quest for spiritual & therapeutic reset w/psychedelics so big thanks for this post as well... %) Peace of Life
ps- How much did you take .

Much agreed brother, I got exactly what I was seeking without the use of neurotoxic benzo's.

And this was from a mere 9" of Bridgesii... But it was the dankest cactus I have ever used by a wide margin

 

[psy997]

Explain.

You are projecting your own concepts of reality and how the world / people works onto his statements, and in doing so misunderstanding or flat out failing to hear what he is saying. Case in point: coming to the conclusion of burn out being a fundamentalist christian because of his stated belief in a higher power, and his having read the bible.

 

[TheBlackPirate]

This is an astute observation. I have also learned repeated "trigger words" influence mood both now and later. This works positively and the other way.

What do you mean by trigger words?

When I am in an environment with people repeating phrases such as "Calm, Happy, Love", then I am subconsciously filled with those thoughts. This works sober and on psychedelics. Alternatively if I was surrounded with people intentionally repeating the specific word "ANXIETY" then those thoughts fill my subconscious mind.

Shamans often utilize this positive power. They recite comforting mantras during healing ceremonies. A common mantra others have utilized is "Trust, let go, be open". These fill the subconscious with tranquil thoughts of peace.

At the opposite end of the spectrum, historically secret police such as the Stasi secret police relied heavily of psychological warfare. With the Stasi these techniques were utilized in oppressing behaviors and opinions threatening the East German government. Psychological warfare techniques using the influence of repetition, tendency towards conforming with social norms, subservience in the face of authority, and attacking the reputation of opposition leaders form the foundation of such oppressive government activities. Similar atrocities continue today in other major places among us. We only get confirmation of these human rights violations after the fact because secret police poorly self regulate. Just look at how effectively the United States criminal justice system and United States regular police self regulates. The behavior of the Stasi was much worse. Only the bravest/stupidest spoke out against them.

Words are powerful. I prefer the positive honest vibes of the protecting shamans and as a American I say with pride I will not ever live under oppression as bad as the Stasi could produce.