Shamandrums
Bluelighter
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Mescaline Therapy
- Thread starter Mescaline Man
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![:\](https://bluelight.org/xf/BL_Images/Orig_Emoji/wrygrin.gif "wry grin :\")
Even tho in reality the tibetan book of the dead and psychedelics have nothing to do with each other? By forcing one to try and fit the other it gives you some sense of comfort? If someone wrote a book outlining a series of alleged similarities between scientology and psychedelics would that be worthwhile too?
What's your take on using peyote with it's endangered status in the wild? Or do you try and stick with farmed peyote?
Mescaline Man
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Great stuff Shamandrums! Thanks for the info!! I am not worried about overdoing in terms of a dose since I usually stick to no more than 15" of san pedro (2.5" diameter) or 9" of bridgesii (1.5" diameter). I definitely believe it would be easier to overdose on mescaline than the others you mentioned, but I find mushrooms to be so fucking risky in terms of how the trip turns out, it really can make my anxiety much worse.
Can I ask what you enjoy doing on cactus trips? Besides enjoying nature, that is a given %):D
I highly recommend watching the original fantasia on cactus, what an experience that can be!! Also, this may sound strange but I like listening to Chopin and other renaissance composers during my cactus ventures.
By the way burn out, what books would you recommend to me about gaining a new perspective on anxiety and helping to cope with it from psychedelics? Note that I have no interest in mushrooms anymore
On a side note, I accidentally spilled some everclear-infused LSD on my hand last night which had lots of fresh cuts. Surprisingly it was a wonderful microdose
You know I don't think I've actually read any books specifically about psychedelics and anxiety, which seems like an important topic. One problem is that psychedelics, while they can certainly help anxiety, will try to fix everythng else that is wrong with you mentally and spiritually also. So if you go in trying to fix anxiety only, you might get more than you bargained for.
But I can tell you that what has helped me a lot with anxiety is the herb kava. I wrote a whole thread on it earlier which you can find in my post history. While on kava (or sober) I also listen to a lot of spiritual teachers. Bentinho Massaro is one of the best ones I have found for personal transformation and you can find his videos on youtube. All these mental problems really are solvable, the only thing that makes it so difficult is all the time we've spent programming our brain to look at things the wrong way.
Says who? You? What is this "reality" you refer to and why do you assume you have a monopoly on it? The point was to use concepts from the book during psychedelic experiences to help free one's awareness from the habituated patterns of the nervous system Whether psychedelics and the tibetan book of the dead have "something to do with each other" (whatever you mean by that) is really not the issue. Its not a question that would occur to me ask because I understand the purpose of the book. Do you?
No, I never said anything about it giving me a sense of comfort. I said it helped free my awareness from being stuck in old, useless thought patterns.
I'd have to read the book.
Whoah, back up a minute burn. You're getting way confused here. Religion has no basis in reality - it's a story. Psychedelics do have a basis in reality - that's why we can eat them. Why are you so keen on combining a fantasy with no basis in reality with psychedelics?
The point was to use concepts from the book during psychedelic experiences to help free one's awareness from the habituated patterns of the nervous system
Are you really saying the psychedelic doesn't do that itself? Psychedelics work - that's why they occupy a different plane of reality than man-made religion.
I'd have to read the book.
I think that's where we differ - man-made religions never did anything for me whatsoever. Why hijack psychedelics with some old bullshit that never worked anyway. What's the point?
I'm not confused, you're simply ignorant as I've explained over and over. Religious stories have a point which pertains to reality. It's not my fault if you're too stupid to see it. Just like Freud explained the human psyche in terms of ID, ego and super ego, ancient cultures explained the workings of the psyche (as well as the cosmos, since each reflects the other) in terms of myths and stories.
Psychedelic means mind manifesting, which means they reveal the workings of the psyche. Hence, the connection between psychedelics and religion (they both reveal the psyche). If you can understand what psychedfelics have to teach you, you can understand religion better and if you can understand religion better you can understand what psychedelics are showing you better.
Obviously all of this is completely lost on you. It's like speaking to a child.
I never said that, I said they enhance each other earlier in the thread. It's obvious, that's why I ask how do you know you're not the stupid one and Leary, Ram Daas, Grof, Metzner, and myself are seeing something you don't yet understand? Why do you assume we're all crazy and you're the only sane one? I am not going to speak any more about psychedelics, religion or anything of that nature with you, because the more important issue is the fact that you take your own assumptions as absolute truth but disregard everyone's elses. It's completely illogical.
The point is you fail at logic. Just because you can't comprehend religion or see a connection to psychedelics, doesn't logically mean no one can. I have never seen anyone so blinded by their own point of view. What have you learned from psychedelics, if not how to view things from alternate points of view? I guess you can lead a man to water but you can't make him drink, even if you're a powerful psychedelic drug.
Yawn.
Religious stories have a point which pertains to reality.
What does this even mean? What "point" out of the story of the tibetan book of the dead for example "pertains to reality"?
ancient cultures explained the workings of the psyche (as well as the cosmos, since each reflects the other) in terms of myths and stories.
Nonsense.
Religion is the enemy of reason in pretty much all cases. To try and reframe it as a positive force "explaining" the psyche and the world is to get things precisely ass-backwards.
Hence, the connection between psychedelics and religion (they both reveal the psyche)
Nonsense.
You seem to be making this up as you go along. Religion is mostly about worshipping external "gods".
if you can understand religion better you can understand what psychedelics are showing you better.
Are you really saying that if you're a follower of christianity that somehow gives you a insight into the experience of taking 300mics of acid? How utterly ridiculous.
Obviously all of this is completely lost on you
LOL! I'm certainly not going to agree that christianity is just the same as tripping if that's what you're hoping burn.
I said they enhance each other earlier in the thread
You mean apart from when the christians arn't killing people for taking mushrooms like the spaniards did?
Are you really saying organised religion enhances psychedelic use? How far do you take this? Do you think 50 years of going to church every week makes you more understanding of the psychedelic experience than going to church for 1 year? I don't think so - I think being involved in organised religion for decades makes you even more vitriolically opposed to psychedelic use.
Leary, Ram Daas, Grof, Metzner
Why do you keep throwing these names out? What do you think they said? That you can get the same effect from organised religion as you do from using psychedelics? Do you really think Tim Leary would ever have claimed you could get the same effect as psychedelics from going to church every week?
Just because you can't comprehend religion or see a connection to psychedelics
No, I don't see much of a connection. I was surrounded by religion for decades before I encountered psychedelics. Nothing I'd experienced in a church prepared me for mushrooms.
What have you learned from psychedelics, if not how to view things from alternate points of view?
Not sure what you're even trying to say here. Do you mean that if we get something from psychedelics we should accept the tenets of organised religion?
Mescaline Man
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are you suggesting mescaline is physically addictive?
I told you, if you're too stupid to understand religious books I am not going to explain them to you. You will just say "nonsense" anyway since that is your reaction to everything you dont understand. Dont pretend otherwise.
Nonsense! See, I can do it too. I'm sure you totally convinced.
Nonsense!
What I said was, religious myths are allegorical metaphors that teach us something about how the human mind/cosmos works. I also happen to think LSD can teach us something about how the human mind and cosmos works. I realize that this is all completely lost on you though, so I dont see much point in continuing.
ALl I was hoping for was the maturity to lay aside your arrogant know it all attitude for one second and admit there might be something of value in the work of Leary, Metzner, Daas, Grof, etc. Admit there might be something you dont understand, that reality might be bigger than your ego. But obviously that's way beyond your abilities.
Obviously.
Youre completely missing the point dude, wow.
No and I never said that. The fact that you have to twist and exaggerate what I say in order to make your arguments proves you've got nothing. I keep throwing those names out, because I share many of their views about psychedelics, including seeing a connection to religion and mythology. Either all of us are crazy in seeing that, or you are. I was trying to help you see that you might not know everything since several intelligent people who studied psychedelics agree with me. But apparently its a lost cause.
Yeah this is exactlyl what I mean, you have to make up straw men because you have no response to my actual points. I never said "going to church will prepare you for mushrooms" wow did you really say that? I cant waste my time with people who dont know how to debate sorry.
thats exactly right, you dont understand. THe fact that you would even think that is what I meant shows how completely clueless you are to my position. If you stop acting so arrogant I might be willing to try explaining it to you again, but there no point in talking to someone who just assumes they're right about everything. Go on thinking you know everything. Maybe run for political office, since that seems to be the main preresquisite these days.
Mescaline Man
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I'm on mescaline right now laughing hysterically at the argument going on
Mescaline Man
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I'm still waiting for you to tell me which stories in the bible or any other religous book refers to "reality". Do you really think the 72 virgins are waiting for you in the afterlife for example? Was that what you'd call an attempt to explain the mind/cosmos?
What I said was, religious myths are allegorical metaphors that teach us something about how the human mind/cosmos works
I know you said it - but that doesn't mean it has any value. What does the virgins waiting in the afterlife teach us about the mind/cosmos that you believe is so valuable? And if that really is the meaning and goal of religious texts why are they still claiming the text from 2000 years ago is still "true"? Why not change the text to improve the explanation of the "mind/cosmos"? as they learn over time?
including seeing a connection to religion and mythology. Either all of us are crazy in seeing that
I wouldn't call them crazy in picking up on that trend in the 60s. Psychedelics had only just been discovered so people were grasping round for things to write about them and Leary was trying to keep them legal by saying people who used them were religious rather than doped up kids. It doesn't tend to happen as much nowadays - as far as I'm aware David Nutt isn't pushing Hinduism.
I don't remember them claiming like you that all religions are the same in attempting this "mind/cosmos" explanation - Leary/Dass/Metzner tended to focus on types of hinduism and to a lesser extent buddhism.
I never said "going to church will prepare you for mushrooms"
Then what connection do you see between christianity and mushrooms? You keep claiming there's a "connection" and then never offer one. Give us the "connection" you see between the bible and mushrooms. Don't just say "They're both trying to explain the cosmos" for the tenth time. Science is trying to explain the cosmos - not a book that hasn't changed for 2000 years. When you proudly believe the same text you believed 2000 years ago it's obviously NOT an attempt to explain the mind/cosmos.
If you can't think of an answer - you've said you read the bible while tripping - what "connection" are you picking up on from that?
Look, it's obvious you don't understand the mystical connection that I and others see in psychedelics. I can't make you see it. If you don't believe in spirituality, that's fine. I am not trying to argue with over whether spirituality is true or not.
All I have been saying is some people, spiritual people I guess you could say, experience psychedelics as something sacred, something deeply transformative in a spiritual sense, something mystical.
I bring up Leary, Daas, Metnzer, Alan Watts, Aldous Huxeley, etc because they, like me, are examples of such people. If you don't see it, that's ok. I was merely asking if you would consider the possibility you may have missed something, but apparently you don't want to consider that.
Best I can do is leave you with some quotes from these figures to ponder over:
The thinking mind is what is busy. You have to stay in your heart. You have to be in your heart. Be in your heart. The rest is up here in your head where you are doing, doing, doing.
Ram Dass
When the faith is strong enough, it is sufficient just to be. It's a journey towards simplicity, towards quietness, towards a kind of joy that is not in time. It's a journey that has taken us from primary identification with our body and our psyche, on to an identification with God, and ultimately beyond identification.
Ram Dass
My guru said that when he suffers, it brings him closer to God. I have found this, too.
Ram Dass
My belief is that I wasn't born into Judaism by accident, and so I needed to find ways to honor that.
Ram Dass
Learning how to operate a soul figures to take time.
Timothy Leary
If you listen to neurologists and psychiatrists, you'd never fall in love.
Timothy Leary
Experience teaches only the teachable.
Aldous Huxley
You don't look out there for God, something in the sky, you look in you.
Alan Watts
Do you have any idea what these guys were hinting at or not? It's ok to admit if you don't. You don't need to say its all BS and pretend to be superior just so you don't feel left out.
As Ram Daas said, its a journey to a joy that is not in time. That should tell you why a book that is 2,000 years old can still be applicable. Some truths don't change.
Why not alter the writings of charles darwin or socrates to accomodate new findings? Its important to preserve the originals. Who would have the authority to alter them? Commentary is how you add to these traditions, not by changing the original texts. Not that they need to be changed anyway, as Ram Daas hinted at there are things which are not subject to time. I don't know how you can claim to have the books you claim to have read and have no concept of eternal truth.
Its one thing to disagree but your posts continually reveal the fact that you have no concepts of the things about which I speak. Thats why you keep responding with red herrings and straw men,. the best I can do is warn you that perhaps in your arrogance there is a fundamental udnerstanding you have missed.
I mean youre the one who says you read the books. As a result of his psychedelic expeirences, richard alpert changed his name to ram daas (which means one who serves God) and became a spiritual teacher. Obviously he saw some connection. Its funny you ask what since you claim to have read be here now, which explains the whole story. If you still dont understand after reading that book, why on earth do you think I will be able to explaoin it to you?
All I have been saying is some people, spiritual people I guess you could say, experience psychedelics as something sacred, something deeply transformative in a spiritual sense, something mystical.
I bring up Leary, Daas, Metnzer, Alan Watts, Aldous Huxeley, etc because they, like me, are examples of such people. If you don't see it, that's ok. I was merely asking if you would consider the possibility you may have missed something, but apparently you don't want to consider that.
Best I can do is leave you with some quotes from these figures to ponder over:
The thinking mind is what is busy. You have to stay in your heart. You have to be in your heart. Be in your heart. The rest is up here in your head where you are doing, doing, doing.
Ram Dass
When the faith is strong enough, it is sufficient just to be. It's a journey towards simplicity, towards quietness, towards a kind of joy that is not in time. It's a journey that has taken us from primary identification with our body and our psyche, on to an identification with God, and ultimately beyond identification.
Ram Dass
My guru said that when he suffers, it brings him closer to God. I have found this, too.
Ram Dass
My belief is that I wasn't born into Judaism by accident, and so I needed to find ways to honor that.
Ram Dass
Learning how to operate a soul figures to take time.
Timothy Leary
If you listen to neurologists and psychiatrists, you'd never fall in love.
Timothy Leary
Experience teaches only the teachable.
Aldous Huxley
You don't look out there for God, something in the sky, you look in you.
Alan Watts
Do you have any idea what these guys were hinting at or not? It's ok to admit if you don't. You don't need to say its all BS and pretend to be superior just so you don't feel left out.
As Ram Daas said, its a journey to a joy that is not in time. That should tell you why a book that is 2,000 years old can still be applicable. Some truths don't change.
Why not alter the writings of charles darwin or socrates to accomodate new findings? Its important to preserve the originals. Who would have the authority to alter them? Commentary is how you add to these traditions, not by changing the original texts. Not that they need to be changed anyway, as Ram Daas hinted at there are things which are not subject to time. I don't know how you can claim to have the books you claim to have read and have no concept of eternal truth.
Its one thing to disagree but your posts continually reveal the fact that you have no concepts of the things about which I speak. Thats why you keep responding with red herrings and straw men,. the best I can do is warn you that perhaps in your arrogance there is a fundamental udnerstanding you have missed.
I mean youre the one who says you read the books. As a result of his psychedelic expeirences, richard alpert changed his name to ram daas (which means one who serves God) and became a spiritual teacher. Obviously he saw some connection. Its funny you ask what since you claim to have read be here now, which explains the whole story. If you still dont understand after reading that book, why on earth do you think I will be able to explaoin it to you?
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I guess I could put it like this. Psychedelics and religion have in common the fact that they can both make us think about the big questions in life: WHo am I? why am I here? what is life all about? How can I live well and find the peace and happiness I so long for? What happens when I die?
Mescaline Man
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I took mescaline once (or what was sold to me as mescaline, anyway...the person who gave it to me said it was an extract from the san pedro cactus). It looked like a very small amount of white, crystalline powder in some gel caps...bought four capsules for 50 bucks. I took ONE and I tripped harder than I've just about in my entire life, when it finally kicked in it was the fastest & most violent descent out of reality I've ever experienced. Insane euphoria and some of the most intense visuals I've ever experienced...was high for about 13 hours, had to terminate the trip with Xanax eventually. That trip was so intense that I'm pretty sure it drained my serotonin and dopamine, I was pretty depressed for about 3 days afterward. I gave the other three capsules away
Other people who I've told that story to have said that it probably wasn't mescaline that I took...certainly it wasn't a "mild" trip in any sense of the word, contrary to some of the stuff I've read on BL regarding mescaline
Other people who I've told that story to have said that it probably wasn't mescaline that I took...certainly it wasn't a "mild" trip in any sense of the word, contrary to some of the stuff I've read on BL regarding mescaline
Hold on burn, that's changing your point entirely. I can see no end of mystical and spiritual things about psychedelics. I just can't see any in organised religion. You were also claiming that organised religion comes from the same source as psychedelic spirituality, some desire to explain the mind/cosmos. Despite organised religion offering no direct experience of anything spiritual apart from meditation and "here, read this book from 2000 years ago and BELIEVE what it says".
I bring up Leary, Daas, Metnzer, Alan Watts, Aldous Huxeley, etc because they, like me, are examples of such people.
Ok, so you've abandoned that argument you've been pushing for the last 3 pages about organised religion being an "attempt to explain the mind/cosmos" that we should treat the same as anything psychedelics can offer us. Now it's bait and switch and moving on to to trying to say all you meant was that psychedelics are spiritual?
We agree psychedelics are spiritual burn - it's you linking that to organised religion that we've been arguing about.
Do you have any idea what these guys were hinting at or not?
Not really no, you'd need to give the quote some context. Unless you want to explain what you believe they mean.
And as I've told you before, don't lump all these guys together as one and try and claim they all support your theories. For example, Alan Watts drank himself to a long, slow miserable death on whiskey at the same time as giving lectures on spirituality. So no, learn a little more about these people before you try and reduce them to a one line quote.
That's probably why you find it so easy to link organised religion to psychedelics - if the bible says something vaguely trippy in one line that goes in your book of "it's the same thing as mushrooms dude". Try deeper thinking than the one line quote.
That should tell you why a book that is 2,000 years old can still be applicable. Some truths don't change.
Hmmm...Could you give one of these alleged "truths" instead of one line quotes from people and then claiming their one line quotes support all the stories in the bible? It's leaps of deranged thinking like this that weaken your argument so catastrophically.
And I'd still like you to say how many religous stories come from the "desire to explain the mind/cosmos" and how many are out right fraud and lies. Or do you just pull out the ones you like and forget the rest? Jesus once arrived somewhere on a donkey, apparantly because it says in an older book "the messiah will arrive on a donkey". Was that a good hearted attempt to explain the cosmos or good old fraud?
Why not alter the writings of charles darwin or socrates to accomodate new findings?
Science progresses and new things become accepted. Religion doesn't. No-one gets out origin of species and says "That's the word of God and will be true forever".
and have no concept of eternal truth.
You seriously believe the eternal truth can be found in bibles and korans?
As a result of his psychedelic expeirences, richard alpert changed his name to ram daas
The standard burn out argument policy - pick one line or one person and then claim that supports an entire world view. Back in the 60s a troubled gay guy took psychedelics and became religious after losing his well paid job. It happens. Do you really want to use him to push your arguments? I've no doubt there's other people who took psychedelics, went to India and came back and never bothered with it again like Ringo.
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Mescaline Man
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Man I would say that was definitely not mescaline... way too cheap for it to be that intense of a trip. Between the cactus and chemicals to extract it, a 13 hour mescaline trip would have costed wayyyyy more than $12.50, more like $25-$35 or more per pill. I would have bet money it was some nasty RC, I hate RC's.
Also it leaves you feeling rejuvenated and replenished the next day (me right now%)) but then again the post trip depression could have been caused from the xanax.
My friend was offered "mescaline powder" at a party once and it turned out to be 2C-I. Low and behold he had a seizure in front of everyone. People are fucking scumbags