MDMA Recovery (Stories & Support - 5)

[ADubbs]

How can some people abuse the shit out of mdma without longterm consequences and others get months of sleep problems from one strong pill.
I don't fucking get it. At least I felt some anger while working out today, the strongest emotion I felt in weeks.

I dunno man it isn't fair.....I did way less than everyone else and of course I'm fucked up

 

[socrilus]

I think a lot of people go through the numbness phase but then we usually hear from them months later when they have progressed and are in a different phase

That would be me. I was not posting when I had emotional numbness I was just a lurker at the time so I never mentioned it.

 

[Ihatenotfeeling]

Anyone tried uridine ?

 

[howlowhowlstheowl]

Searching this forum for old posts about "ltc", or those with long term effects, is pretty difficult. Something I haven't seen mentioned by the current posters here that I'm suffering from majorly is sensory overload.
I mentioned earlier that I've lost my ability to speak or started stuttering. This happens when there's too much going on. I can't really go out in public because there's too much going on and I get extremely confused and agitated. Bright lights, sounds, moving cars, people... Today I went out to the city and it was ..well, an experience to say the least. I went to talk to a friend and when I got to his place I couldn't speak and I had to calm down for a good few minutes until I regained my voice and even then it was 'humbled' and my hands were shaking. This is when my eyes go crazy too and start darting around. It seems that I'm ultra sensitive to any kind of stimulation and my cns doesn't like it.

I've got a recommendation to a good neurologist that I will be seeing, but I feel like whatever will or won't be found out is not going to affect recovery either way. It feels like the brakes are malfunctioning in my brain. Those are the words I used in the first week - like there was too much power and it just kept coming and coming. One friend even wondered if I had taken something way stronger and was still tripping 5 days later.

I haven't taken a benzo in a few weeks but I'm tempted to try taking one in the morning and one at night for a couple of days to see how much they actually help and what is
the effect to the eyes etc. But I think I'll wait to see the neurologist before doing these experiments. If I remember right all these went away for a while with the benzo, alparazolam.

 

[howlowhowlstheowl]

Any kind of socializing also triggers this overload. I wonder if this has to do with mdma being an empathogen. I can't seem to act natural and there are so many little cues while socializing; eye contact, tone of voice,pauses in speech, body language.. I don't know, I just can't act natural even with people I've always felt comfortable with. With strangers it's even worse... I'm a complete twitchy mess.
It doesn't help that I always feel disoriented/dizzy/vertigo and my eyes won't stay still so this makes things like keeping eye contact undoable.

 

[howlowhowlstheowl]

I had something like this sensory overload also a year ago when I was on a 3 day festival and overdid the stimulants as well. Mdma and amphetamine, on separate days. This was the last time I used recreational drugs before this fateful weekend. Then it only lasted a day though and went away after a good nights sleep.

Any other times I've used ecstacy (or amphetamine) I never had any issues, only an afterglow. All were at least 6 months apart, and I've only tried a handful of times.

 

[Regrets9995]

I know this sounds stupid and is such a small issue in comparison to the horrible symptoms everyone else and I are having, but I'm actually gutted that I might never be able to drink alcohol again. As in I feel as if my brain is sensitive to everything like that and I won't be able to enjoy a cold beer after work without the worry of setting something off. I dunno, would it be wise to do anything after a bad reaction like this? Or is completely sober the only way to go now.

 

[socrilus]

So to anybody who is having success with CBT type stuff---

How the hell are you doing it? If low mood is causing some kind of negative thinking then how is identifying cognitive distortions helping you improve that mood right then and there in the moment? Even if I identify the cog distortion, the thought just comes back due to not having seen an improvement in the mood aspect. If I saw improvement in the mood, then I would not get that thought (Which is about the mood) in the first place.

 

[ADubbs]

I know this sounds stupid and is such a small issue in comparison to the horrible symptoms everyone else and I are having, but I'm actually gutted that I might never be able to drink alcohol again. As in I feel as if my brain is sensitive to everything like that and I won't be able to enjoy a cold beer after work without the worry of setting something off. I dunno, would it be wise to do anything after a bad reaction like this? Or is completely sober the only way to go now.

This is what has me down in the dumps, it sucks I can't even really have more than a sip. There definitely could be worse things in life, but having a few beers here and there was one of my favorite things.....now I can't have anything.....oh well, kinda selfish of me to think this way I guess.

 

[Regrets9995]

This is what has me down in the dumps, it sucks I can't even really have more than a sip. There definitely could be worse things in life, but having a few beers here and there was one of my favorite things.....now I can't have anything.....oh well, kinda selfish of me to think this way I guess.

I know what you mean about it being a selfish way to think but it's not like either of us were taking this stuff for years, just annoying that that social aspect of my life may be gone forever. Just annoying.

 

[socrilus]

For what I understand the idea is to change where that thought eventually leads to, so instead of trying to get rid of it which is what makes it come back, you can redirect it.
For example, "I feel that I ruined my life", instead of actually believing that you extend that thought so it incorporates something like, "well, this is drug induced, I should wait it out and see how it goes". I find this more useful the less word bounded you make it in your mind, full meditation being optimal.

A word that encoded this for me back when my LTC started was "detachment", for me it meant forgetting about the things I wanted so I could want the things I have.
Its really just a trick to change your thought patterns, finding your own way to reconect with yourself, if that makes sense to you.

Definitely kind of abstract for me. I dont have the I ruined my life thought as much as the "How long until this is cured" thought. And that thought is difficult to apply CBT on since there isn't an inherent cognitive distortion. Its like with any other medical condition you wonder how long it will take (say a broken arm which the doc is like 6-8 weeks and itll be good to go and lo and behold its mostly good to go and you just have to maybe rebuild the muscle there/use it which still doesn't take that long maybe another 4 weeks). So there is like a finite time frame that you know in which it will resolve. With this there isnt any such time frame but if there was it would be easier.

Also sometimes I do not have any thoughts necessarily but I still feel the low mood. I have no idea how to use thought pattern modification a la CBT in these scenarios to make me feel good. With the way CBT is presented its almost like it seems like you can think your way into "Feeling Good" (thats the title of a David Burns book I have read).

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

Also sometimes I do not have any thoughts necessarily but I still feel the low mood. I have no idea how to use thought pattern modification a la CBT in these scenarios to make me feel good. With the way CBT is presented its almost like it seems like you can think your way into "Feeling Good" (thats the title of a David Burns book I have read).

One thing to understand is that we can still be viewing our lives through a certain lens even without linguistic thoughts, a knowledge, understanding or interoception that isn't necessarily linguistically based if you will.

 

[socrilus]

One thing to understand is that we can still be viewing our lives through a certain lens even without linguistic thoughts, a knowledge, understanding or interoception that isn't necessarily linguistically based if you will.

I know what you mean I think. Its like you aren't actively thinking but you are at some subconscious level or whatever.

But regardless wtf are you supposed to do then. All I can see is somehow with the CBT it sometimes seems like its a 'Fake it to Make it' sort of approach. Its like oh just think these things are really internalize/believe them and keep doing that until you eventually feel better. I have no problem with that except looking at my watch and being like alright when do I feel the effects.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

If you find yourself still looking at your watch (non specific example) then chances are the mindfulness practice session isn't going so well, and thus why expect beneficial effects from it? I guess it's kinda like exercising with bad technique/bad diet and then wondering why there's no muscle growth, or expecting growth after the first work out

One thing that many of us understand intuitively is that over-analytical and neurotic people tend to be very resistant to change, so it could be that for some people mindfulness is much harder to become proficient at and it takes longer for proficient practice to exert beneficial changes.

But there is probably going to be an accompanying underlying personality/attitude/mindset change, and that stuff certainly doesn't happen the first time we ever practice mindfulness.

Most people that recover and report back seem to have had a significant personality change.

Also just my two cents, I think you may be getting a bit caught up in what you call the "fake it till you make it" CBT type stuff - mindfulness is more so about focusing the attention on the present raw conscious sensations and entering a non-judgemental state rather than trying to alter thoughts to be "positive" and that kind of stuff.

If we got ourselves into trouble with our conceptual lenses, then swapping to a positive lens temporarily may not help because it'll still be using the "lens" circuitry that we need to weaken. I hope that makes sense.

So for example, if it causes you distress that you need to be recovered quickly for school/life et cetera, your current state is not actually 100% due to the raw conscious sensation. If it was, then you would feel the same regardless if you had school coming up or not. But if you have your wedding coming up in 3 months and need to start working 60 hours a week in a highly social environment, this puts a very different lens on it than if you had 10 million dollars and were already retired at age 20. I hope that's at least helpful as a thought experiment.

 

[socrilus]

I see what you mean about the lens although i still disagree that a negative lens causes LTC or depression/anxiety necessarily since depression/anxiety can also come first and then cause the negative lens. So when people like Mark Williams in his book talks about "seeing a person on the street you know who doesn't say hi triggering a spiral and reactivating depressive thoughts"--I can definitively say that kind of stuff is not the issue for me. That sort of stuff seems ez peezy to me to sort out.

Also just something I noticed --- doesn't mindfulness contradict CBT and vice versa? Wtf? I hope I am not the only one who noticed the contradiction here lol. How to reconcile this apparant contradiction?

And yea of course im not 100%. Thats the whole point. If I was 100% I wouldnt be worried about school/life/etc. That is true. I cannot handle stress as well as before and then I get stressed that I cannot handle stress like my old self even though consciously I realize that isnt really my fault but is this condition.

Now one thing that *does* improve my mood somewhat is checking out girls and thinking about a better future. Technically thats not in the present moment but does work. Maybe a GF would take some of the focus off of myself. Distraction techniques have also been effective in the moment tools provided I enjoy the distraction.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

I see what you mean about the lens although i still disagree that a negative lens causes LTC or depression/anxiety necessarily since depression/anxiety can also come first and then cause the negative lens. So when people like Mark Williams in his book talks about "seeing a person on the street you know who doesn't say hi triggering a spiral and reactivating depressive thoughts"--I can definitively say that kind of stuff is not the issue for me. That sort of stuff seems ez peezy to me to sort out.

Also just something I noticed --- doesn't mindfulness contradict CBT and vice versa? Wtf? I hope I am not the only one who noticed the contradiction here lol. How to reconcile this apparant contradiction?

I think I should've worded things differently - I mean to say that there can be positive lenses, negative lenses, and then with a proper mindful attitude, no lens at all. CBT might take the stance of "A positive lens is better than a negative lens", but maybe mindfulness takes the stance of "no lens is better than any lens", to paraphrase.

There is probably a fair short term and chronic neurological difference between having a lens and having no lens. I think having any lens at all could increase the risk for mental illness, and increase the risk of developing these symptoms after drug use or emotional trauma in the first place. I would bet that most people who have these symptoms have fairly strong lenses prior to their symptom appearance, regardless of whether they're positive or negative lenses.

I'm not saying that the self and ego doesn't serve any purpose, but I don't think its helping everyone with mental illness. You can try to cognitively shift the ego/lens/self/inner monologue to be more "positive" or whatever, but maybe that's just trying to put mustard on a turd sandwich for some people.

There are also some people who seem to lose their inner monologue (they claim ego loss) with an LTC. Its possible that complete ego loss occurring rapidly can be too much of a jolt to the brain that has developed for many many years with an active ego.

In the psychedelic community, people often speak about "trip reintegration" when people have troubles after a psychedelic. Its thought that some trips aren't helpful unless one can successfully integrate their experiences back into sober life.

 

[socrilus]

Ego death sounds incredibly scary. Inner monologue is part of personality too.

The good thing is MDMA is not that strong of a psychedelic anyways so it seems like its the amphetamine component causing problems. Id actually rather have amphetamine related issues vs LSD related issues for sure. LSD is a drug I am not going to go near with a 10 foot pole.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

Ego death sounds incredibly scary. Inner monologue is part of personality too.

LSD is a drug I am not going to go near with a 10 foot pole.

I still don't know what to make of people's fear of letting go of their ego, its actually a big barrier to having a breakthrough psychedelic trip.

There is some evidence that the degree of ego loss during magic mushroom use combined with meditation correlates with the beneficial effects post-trip. Its actually a remarkable experience, and ego loss usually rates as the single most significant experience of someone's life.

Some mindfulness practitioners have said that its a mistake to identify with the voice in our head, to think that we are the voice in our heads. In western culture, its common to see this conceptualization of the inner monologue/ego as the "self", and then the body and outside world as "other". We are usually running around with the sense that our bodies are a vehicle and that we are "behind the eyes".

For some, ego loss transcends that boundary, and it can be extremely therapeutic (when not disturbing)

 

[socrilus]

Interesting read re serotonin transporter and geographic location/ethnicity:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wi...culture-serotonin-and-a-side-of-pathogens/amp

Also about ego loss where do you draw the boundary between total ego loss and anhedonia/DP/DR. Total ego loss sounds almost like severe DP/DR and being 'lost' in life. That does not seem pleasant.

 

[howlowhowlstheowl]

Today while jogging I felt like a mild sensation of the jaw clenching that happens sometimes with ecstacy. Why would that be? It wasn't strong but definitely there.. interestingly on the roll that led to my current state I don't remember having it. Today was a really bad day. I don't know why. All I can think of is that I ate more than usual yesterday. I'm so sick guys.. physically too.. most of you are working, studying.. I've been in bed all day. I forced myself to go for a jog but I'm starting to wonder if there is life after this. If it was just mood related I could have hope in some drug but what could I take for this. Wait and hope what else is there... I feel almost a little bit like a human now at bedtime so I don't want to sleep only to wake up to the same suffering again. It's 4am already.
I know it's only been 1 month 3 weeks... it feels like I'm in a constant seizure. Like that's why my eyes keep re-adjusting. My cognition feels the same. And there's a sensation of pressure behind my eyes.