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Opioids Loperamide (Immodium) Megathread: We have now lost at least 2 of our own from Lope

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its not deniable that the two principal opiates Morphine and, to a lesser degree, Codeine, has less adverse effects than full synthetic opioids.

That's true but it's merely coincidental they are natural and have less side effects.

as for semi-synthetics, oxycodone at least has far less adverse reactions and peripheral activity like Tramadol's SSRI and Methadone's NMDA and acts as a straight MOR.

Except tramadol is actually natural unlike semisynthetic less side effect having oxycodone.

Name one full synthetic opioid that has either through FDA or WHO or UK NHS less adverse effects than Morphine

I didn't even bother looking it doesn't matter if the opioid with the least side effects is natural, that doesn't mean synthetic opioids inherently have more side effects. Being natural or synthetic has no bearing on how many/severe side effects a drug will have/be.

I spent years obsessing over this stuff since pharmacology is a passion of mine

Me too, I went to college with a pharmacology major before I failed out because of my heroin addiction.
 
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What I wonder is why people seem to be dosing the same amount daily, from the first day?

With it's long half life, it seems I'm able to take say 60-90mg the first day (I can do as 3g of H (shitty tar) in 4-5 days) and subsequently, 30-40mg. It seems after opioid withdrawal symptoms are stabilized following doses can be less, much like methadone. I attribute this to the long half life.

As for happydaysover's son, those doses for an opioid naive person I would guess would be something like 400mg for me. I've only pushed the dosage high (closer to 240mg) a year ago and it ended in me vomiting for 5 hours. I used to take a full 72ct bottle at a time, but have realized that is quite excessive, and can actually cause PNS withdrawals when you're on doses of MU active opioids (say oxycodone) to get high! It's an odd having the shits while feeling good on oxy. Anywho, over time I've realized that those doses were more likely panic induced, and 60-90mg the first night, with 40-50mg the next night and even less the third day works fine.

@Negrogesic's "since its making me feel like a mini-junky over something that doesnt produce a reward."

Geeze, I've sure felt that feeling. Like at least when trapped with opioids you're getting high! But with this stuff it's just a sad necessity to hold our bodies and minds together.
 
Except tramadol is actually natural unlike semisynthetic less side effect having oxycodone.

In what way is tramadol "natural"? I thought it was fully synthetic. Oxycodone is derived from thebaine, an alkaloid in the opium poppy. What plant source is tramadol derived from?


EDIT: I just read on Wikipedia that in 2013 research found that tramadol was produced in "the roots of the african pin cusion tree". What the fuck?! I thought tramadol was fully synthetic... and if they discovered this african tree producing it just last year, then how was it made prior to that?
 
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In what way is tramadol "natural"? I thought it was fully synthetic. Oxycodone is derived from thebaine, an alkaloid in the opium poppy. What plant source is tramadol derived from?


EDIT: I just read on Wikipedia that in 2013 research found that tramadol was produced in "the roots of the african pin cusion tree". What the fuck?! I thought tramadol was fully synthetic... and if they discovered this african tree producing it just last year, then how was it made prior to that?


You just have to google tramadol synthesis.

Amazing, it WAS considered a full synthetic drug, and any pharmaceutical tramadol you take will be synthetic for now.

I saw what you mentioned in "Natural News" and was a bit skeptical, but it's also at the Royal Society of Chemistry (http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/2013/09/african-plant-natural-source-tramadol) though all this is a bit off topic. 1% by dry weight is not a bad amount.
 
Amazing, it WAS considered a full synthetic drug, and any pharmaceutical tramadol you take will be synthetic for now.

That IS amazing. I always thought that tramadol personified a fully synthetic opioid because of it's complex mechanism of action, and I've never heard of a synthetic drug being synthed and used and then later discovered in nature.

I might be ignorant to the details or maybe this happens a fair bit, I don't know. But I was genuinely surprised by that little revelation!
 
I've never heard of a synthetic drug being synthed and used and then later discovered in nature.

Though whether they were really detecting natural amphetamine is another matter.

http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/shulgin/adsarchive/acacia.htm

Shulgin also mentions DMT:

There is certainly precedent for a drug which was originally man-made, to be discovered in a plant. N,N-Dimethyltryptamine (DMT) was first synthesized by Manske, in Canada, in the 1930s. It was over twenty years later that it was discovered in a plant from South America.
 
What I wonder is why people seem to be dosing the same amount daily, from the first day?

I've been at the same dose for about a year, with the same CNS and lessened PNS effect (less effect on bowels, which is a good thing if using this for reasons other than an anti-diarrheal of course). I am baffled as to how my tolerance seems to have hit a ceiling, but certainly happy about that.

Also, taking Loperamide in small bursts over 16-24 hours does seem to compound its effects, as in, taking, for example, 40mg in one sitting for me would yield less CNS effect than taking 40mg over four different sittings (10mg x 4) within 48-72 hours. However, I still take one bulk dose in one sitting usually every 48 hours, sometimes I push that to 72hrs.

//

@ Tramadol discussion, that is indeed fascinating that it has been found in an obscure plant.
 
I've been at the same dose for about a year, with the same CNS and lessened PNS effect (less effect on bowels, which is a good thing if using this for reasons other than an anti-diarrheal of course). I am baffled as to how my tolerance seems to have hit a ceiling, but certainly happy about that.

Also, taking Loperamide in small bursts over 16-24 hours does seem to compound its effects, as in, taking, for example, 40mg in one sitting for me would yield less CNS effect than taking 40mg over four different sittings (10mg x 4) within 48-72 hours. However, I still take one bulk dose in one sitting usually every 48 hours, sometimes I push that to 72hrs.

//

@ Tramadol discussion, that is indeed fascinating that it has been found in an obscure plant.

I guess what I really meant is that with loperamide is that due to it's long half life it takes several days to reach it's peak dosage in the blood. Conversely, if the first dose was large enough to stabilize your WD symptoms, subsequent ones should be able to be smaller - 40mg day one, 34mg day two, and say 28mg subsequently every day. To me taking the same high dose day one and beyond by day three will put you above where you should be (what is needed to feel normal).

Your experience with intermittent dosing is interesting, I sometime take it intermittently, but that is to determine the minimum I need to feel normal (increasing 10-20mg every three hours), and as I mentioned I would take the total consumed to feel normal, and the next days single dose would be that added together, and then 10-40% removed.
 
I'm glad you have shared this. It's been suggested to me that my son could have been hiding a secret opiate addiction but I really don't believe that's the case. I know he had only just heard about it and initially only got one box of 20 x 2mg. Somewhere between Tuesday and Friday he told a mate that he had found an on the shelf little known way to get an opiate high. He told his mate he had tried it and it was awesome. On Thursday he got 4 more boxes. We didn't know any of this until afterwards. I think you are right and that as a newbie he felt what he thought was an opiate high. His only previous experience was a mild poppy tea occasionally. I feel so angry that he read a stupid post on Reddit/drugs and believed it to be harmless. He was very intelligent and it seems out of character but I guess it shows the immature teenage side of him which is why I fear for other teenagers...

Hope your son doesn't keep doing it, it can cause serious problems with the colon, I would imagine. as a life long opiate user, now at 30, I can say that addiction is stupid and should be avoided if you can. for me, it was going to happen for various reasons, but hopefully your son doesn't go down the path I did. opiate addiction in any form is a severe problem. I've on it for life because I used drugs instead of learning stress managment at a young age and it is so ingrained into my being that the stress would take me years of doing nothing, and so i just choose to stay addicted. that being said opiates have the mildest effect on the brain of any drug, however the resulting addiciton is among the most severe that is possible. an amazing irony. anyway wish you luck in your child. loperimide is dangerous stuff, it impairs the brain in a way "real" opiates dont seem to.
 
Hope your son doesn't keep doing it, it can cause serious problems with the colon, I would imagine. as a life long opiate user, now at 30, I can say that addiction is stupid and should be avoided if you can. for me, it was going to happen for various reasons, but hopefully your son doesn't go down the path I did. opiate addiction in any form is a severe problem. I've on it for life because I used drugs instead of learning stress managment at a young age and it is so ingrained into my being that the stress would take me years of doing nothing, and so i just choose to stay addicted. that being said opiates have the mildest effect on the brain of any drug, however the resulting addiciton is among the most severe that is possible. an amazing irony. anyway wish you luck in your child. loperimide is dangerous stuff, it impairs the brain in a way "real" opiates dont seem to.
My son only found out about loperamide on the Monday and he died on Sunday 12th Jan after using it only 3 times. Before this he was a weed smoker but used it to cope with anxiety. When there was none available he went looking for what he thought was a safe alternative. The post we found on his computer made it sound like non serious recreational fun.
 
My son only found out about loperamide on the Monday and he died on Sunday 12th Jan after using it only 3 times. Before this he was a weed smoker but used it to cope with anxiety. When there was none available he went looking for what he thought was a safe alternative. The post we found on his computer made it sound like non serious recreational fun.

Yeah... that guy didn't read the posts that had been made.

I didn't mention it already but I'm extremely sorry for your loss. I'm too young to have kids, but I do understand loss. Your son could have just as easily been me at 17 doing some stuff without fully understanding the dynamics in play (from reading a few of your other posts, our names are the same).

Forums such as this do their best to make absolutely clear loperamide should never be used by people looking for a "high," and that seeking that high is dangerous to your life, especially if non tolerant. If non tolerant loperamide should only be used as prescribed (two pills every 24 hours). The only reason loperamide is of such discussion here is, as you've read, to dependant individuals it has the potential to completely remove acute opioid WD symptoms.

If you wouldn't mind, when the toxicity report/autopsy comes back, could you post it with all personal information redacted? It would be most appreciated to me and I'm sure others here.

The other BL user who died from loperamide (a very large quantity) also consumed a large amount of alcohol, and there was never a post which definitively stated his exact cause of death. I'm interested into whether it was acute-toxicity, or respiratory collapse (typical of opioid overdose) or something different. If respiratory collapse, this would follow with the BL user who also drank alcohol which vastly potentiates the depression of breathing and the CNS. I'm sorry if discussing it like this sounds callous at all, but I believe a better understanding of what happened could be of use to making high dose loperamide use safer for those controlling opioid dependence.

Also, for anyone interested, I found this on two other loperamide overdose deaths (deaths are fairly uncommon in actual literature/papers on it), I found two others, but they were attributed to an extreme anaphylactic reaction, these were not.

1.2 Loperamide Intoxication in the Pursuit of Opioid Effects:
Report of Two Fatalities
J. Denton1, A. Youmans1, V. Arangelovich2
1McLean County Coroner’s Office, Bloomington, IL; 2Will County Coroners
Office, Joliet, IL
Loperamide is a common and easily available over-the- counter
medication used to treat diarrhea. Although it is classified as a synthetic
opioid, it has no central nervous system narcotic effects or abuse potential
when used correctly. When used to excess, reports of morphine euphoric
effects exist. We present two deaths from loperamide intoxication from
excess ingestion of loperamide pills, likely related to attempts at attaining
euphoria. Thorough death investigation, autopsy, and additional toxicology
testing studies were required to establish the cause of death. Loperamide
is commonly available in generic and trade form sold in both 2 mg pill and
1 mg/ml liquid form. Loperamide is classified as a phenyl piperidine opioid.
The mechanism of loperamide is slowing of intestinal contractions and
peristalsis to increase gut transit time, allowing greater absorption of
intestinal fluids. The analog diphenoxylate is a Schedule V class drug in
the U.S. and exhibits morphine-like central nervous system effects.
Loperamide stimulates opiate receptors in the intestines, but at usual
dosage is unable to cross the blood-brain barrier, preventing euphoric
effects. At high concentration the blood-brain barrier is overcome. The first
decedent was a 34 year old man with complaints of hip pain for 2 weeks
prior to death. He was found deceased at home, without evidence of foul
play or trauma. The autopsy showed severe pulmonary edema and
congestion, cerebral edema, and polycystic kidney disease. After the
death, the deceased’s roommate notified the coroner he found a baggie of
300 green loperamide pills in the deceased’s clothing. Toxicology testing
was initially positive for doxylamine, dextromethorphan, and caffeine at
normal to mildly elevated concentrations, with subsequent testing by a
second reference lab positive for loperamide at 580 ng/ml in the peripheral
blood (expected value <10 ng/ml). The second decedent was a 47 year
old woman also found deceased at home. Autopsy also showed
pulmonary edema, congestion, and cerebral edema. Toxicology testing
was significant for diazepam and metabolites, and quetiapine in the
peripheral blood at expected concentrations, and also positive for elevated
loperamide at 300 ng/ml. Both deaths were certified as accidental in
manner. Research revealed few other similar loperamide deaths. There
are reports on drug abuse web sites of abuse of loperamide with intent to
attain morphine-like euphoric effects. The excessive number of pills
needed to obtain euphoria, the cost of the high, and the side effects of
loperamide are reported barriers preventing further abuse.

http://www.name2013.org/documents/Name.2013.Program.pdf
 
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eHealthMe real world results:

Most common interactions experienced by people in the use of Venlafaxine Hydrochloride, Loperamide Hydrochloride:
(click on each outcome to view in-depth analysis, incl. how people recovered)
Interaction Number of reports
Diarrhoea 181
Anxiety 147
Vomiting 112
Dyspnoea (difficult or laboured respiration) 90
Pain 73
Nausea (feeling of having an urge to vomit) 67
Fatigue (feeling of tiredness) 64
General Physical Health Deterioration (weak health status) 63
Anaemia (lack of blood) 52
Abdominal Pain 51
Most common interactions experienced by people in long term use of Venlafaxine Hydrochloride, Loperamide Hydrochloride:
(click on each outcome to view in-depth analysis, incl. how people recovered)
Interaction Number of reports
Night Sweats Fatigue Weakness When Not Using Drug 1
Drug Withdrawal Syndrome (interfere with normal social, occupational, or other functioning. are not due to another medical condition, drug use, or discontinuation) 1
Easy Bruising 1
Headache (pain in head) 1
How effective are the drugs:
not at all somewhat moderate high very high
Venlafaxine Hydrochloride 0.00% 0.00% 100.00% 0.00% 0.00%
Loperamide Hydrochloride 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 100.00% 0.00%
Top conditions involved for these people * :
Depression
Crohn's disease
Diarrhoea
Pain
Nausea
Top co-used drugs for these people * :
Effexor
Imodium
Zometa
Lorazepam
Prednisone
* Approximation only. Some reports may have incomplete information.

How to use the study: print a copy of the study and bring it to your health teams to ensure drug risks and benefits are fully discussed and understood.

Related topic: Loperamide Hydrochloride, Venlafaxine Hydrochloride
 
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Thank you lolwhatzdrugs. I've posted the information above because my son was on venaflaxine and serequel. I don't have the full toxicology report yet but I've been told my son died from hypoxia and only had low levels of the above meds plus low levels of loperamide an over the counter pain killer with calmative and traces of marijuana and alchahol. The combination suppressed his respitory system and proved fatal. I stress the alcohol level was insignificant. He wasn't generally a drinker but he had the occasional drink and still had a trace in his system.
 
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Don't double post saddays, you can edit your posts. Insignificant, as in no alcohol intoxication whilst he was on lope?
 
Don't double post saddays, you can edit your posts. Insignificant, as in no alcohol intoxication whilst he was on lope?

Well not so good! Let's hope you are never in my posistion and so distressed that you mess things up...
Despite my whole world having been shattered I'm trying to let others know how dangerous lope can be even in small amounts.
Insignificant as in not enough to have caused harm.
 
Well not so good! Let's hope you are never in my posistion and so distressed that you mess things up...
Despite my whole world having been shattered I'm trying to let others know how dangerous lope can be even in small amounts.
Insignificant as in not enough to have caused harm.

While I'm certain everybody here feels for you, I really don't think f33lg00d meant any disrespect. I think it's worth noting that the majority of this thread is centered around taking Loperamide for opiate withdrawal and not for recreational purposes. Admittedly, there are some others here and there that have misguidedly taken it on their own accord for that purpose, it's been overwhelmingly decried as reckless. As I said, the vast majority on here discuss it as an alternative to opioid dependence treatments such as buperenorphine and methadone.

I hope you get the toxicology report back soon so you can have the definitive answers you need to have a better understanding of what happened.
 
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Well not so good! Let's hope you are never in my posistion and so distressed that you mess things up...
Despite my whole world having been shattered I'm trying to let others know how dangerous lope can be even in small amounts.
Insignificant as in not enough to have caused harm.

Alcohol could have easily been what tipped it overboard, though I wouldn't place the majority blame on it; it certainly could have been significant. No i don't think I'll ever be in your shoes; mostlikely the opposit , I'm 19 like your son cept I smoke crack and plug heroin and mix anything w errythin

Edit: very drunk sorry if offend
 
No worries. Sorry if I over reacted. Yes the full toxicology report will tell us more but basically it wasn't so much the amounts but the combination. He was perfectly normal only two hours before so he really didn't see it coming. The hypoxia caused him to feel very tired and then to loose consciousness and he ended up on his back and aspirated. The autopsy named hypoxia as the cause of death though.
I realize that lope is important to people in wd but combined with other medications such as muscle relaxants and antidepressants it can be lethal even in small doses.
I didn't mean any offense either I was just trying to make that point and create more awareness.
 
No worries. Sorry if I over reacted. Yes the full toxicology report will tell us more but basically it wasn't so much the amounts but the combination. He was perfectly normal only two hours before so he really didn't see it coming. The hypoxia caused him to feel very tired and then to loose consciousness and he ended up on his back and aspirated. The autopsy named hypoxia as the cause of death though.
I realize that lope is important to people in wd but combined with other medications such as muscle relaxants and antidepressants it can be lethal even in small doses.
I didn't mean any offense either I was just trying to make that point and create more awareness.

And your effort is completely appreciated, spreading good information even after such a loss.

What we need is the tox report to try and understand whether it was the large acute dosage of loperamide that killed him, or the combination. My guess is it probably is the former, and not the combination with other medications. Seroquels depressant effects might have increased CNS depression from loperamide (or at least made him drowsy/sleepy) and therefore unable to awake while aspirating vomit.

For people using loperamide for WD, I would doubt that a cyclobenzaprine (muscle relaxant) or any SSRI would make it more deadly. Maybe for non tolerant individuals, but as mentioned, this thread is meant to educate people on using loperamide safely for WDs.

Only the TOX screen shall tell.

Again, I'm sorry for your loss, but please HappyDaysOver, please do not blame yourself for what occurred. I remember you mentioning that you "should have noticed," but in reality there was no cause for you to think "my son may be in acute mortal danger."

I've lost a parent, but I can't even imagine losing a child. I'll be keeping you in my thoughts.
 
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