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Are you afraid of death or have you made your peace?

Alright, no more flaming each other and going too off-topic. If you can't respect the etiquette of philosophical discourse, then don't post.

My personal belief is in a form of reincarnation but my personal variation on that belief still results in our deaths being the end of everything we consider to be us in any important way. In other words I have faith that we'll be reincarnated, but it's not something I believe is an objective fact, I could be wrong. And even if I'm right, my idea of reincarnation doesn't assume anything we consider to be us, our memories, personality, preferences, my form of belief in reincarnation doesn't make any assumptions that any of that comes with us. All that stuff has been objectively determined to be part of our brains, and that part of us definitely dies and doesn't live on. So no my belief on reincarnation won't allow anything you think of as being you to live on, only your continued experience of consciousness will live on in another time and place. It won't continue to be you though.

And I'm not afraid of dying, I wouldn't be if my belief were disproved right now. I have spent so much of my life pretty much begging for death. While I no longer actively seek it out, ive long become more afraid of what suffering life has in store for me than death has.

This is an interesting way to look at it. I lean towards this as well, assuming that the subjective experience I have is what I think it is.
 
Jess, I also found your views on reincarnation interesting. Are you basically saying that you think people become some sort of energy after they die as opposed to reincarnating into an animal or such? Can you elaborate?
 
Basically as far as reincarnation goes the energy theory is the only one that makes sense to me and is substantiated to a degree by science. Energy cannot be destroyed. That's why when an animal dies and is left to rot the soil is enriched and things flourish on that spot. When I die my energy will still be active in this universe. I won't be taking my personality or such along for the ride however as far as has been supported by any scientific research. You just go back into the energy soup to be ladled out into the creation pool. You ( the energy that makes you up ) may end up being part of a rock somewhere. It's all energy and we we're just along for a short ride until it transforms itself once again.
 
We all have Shakespeare's genes apparently.

Also, we have most definitely drunk Shakespeare's reconstituted urine.

Food for thought.
 
^ to be fair, energy is just energy. The matter that makes us up came from inorganic sources, and constantly leaves us to be somewhere else (a body is always in exchange with its environment). It's not "anybody's" energy, it's just energy.

The way I see it, similar to what Jess said, is that the subjective experience goes on, but nothing that makes me into what I am is carried over. The reasoning is simple: I'm having a subjective experience and I'm a human, therefore it's likely that other humans have one too, and it also seems likely to me that the current subjective experience is not the first one for me. The reason why nothing carries over is because as far as we know, everything that makes an organism is physical (brain, genome etc) and that is lost at death. So I would expect to continue living after death as someone else (not necessarily human), but without any awareness of my previous lives, and with a different personality/everything.
 
What do you guys think about spirits, or more precisely the possibility that your spirit still exists after you die? If you do believe in spirits do you believe they can interact with the living? I'm open to the idea although I haven't formed a concrete opinion. I have known people or read about people that either claimed they could feel the presence of a loved one that passed or that the spirit would actually interact with the living world like for instance turning lights on and off or such. I gotta say it would be fun to fuck with people if your spirit does in fact remain. lol
 
^ to be fair, energy is just energy. The matter that makes us up came from inorganic sources, and constantly leaves us to be somewhere else (a body is always in exchange with its environment). It's not "anybody's" energy, it's just energy.

The way I see it, similar to what Jess said, is that the subjective experience goes on, but nothing that makes me into what I am is carried over. The reasoning is simple: I'm having a subjective experience and I'm a human, therefore it's likely that other humans have one too, and it also seems likely to me that the current subjective experience is not the first one for me. The reason why nothing carries over is because as far as we know, everything that makes an organism is physical (brain, genome etc) and that is lost at death. So I would expect to continue living after death as someone else (not necessarily human), but without any awareness of my previous lives, and with a different personality/everything.

Not just similar, that sounds exactly like what my belief is. It's explained somewhat differently than I usually attempt too, perhaps even superior to my way of explaining it since I usually use the soul as a metaphor for what's here referred to as 'subjective experience', but that might be a better way of referring to it than using the word soul which is highly tied up in other religious meanings. The problem with explaining my view of reincarnation is there isn't an English word that describes the continuation of personal conscious experience being referred too here, that is separate to personality and our conventional sense of the mind. There are English words that are close, like consciousness, sentience, etc. But they dont distinguish between the observation of apparent consciousness and sentience in other humans or perhaps some animals by individual humans, and sentience as personal experienced by oneself from which questions can be derived such as 'why am I me? Why am I not anyone else when I could just as easily be someone else with their opinions and their beliefs and their memories, but be conscious from their point of view potentially thinking similar things about me'. Even saying that has various problems caused by inadequate language in that there's no separate words for 'me' and 'I', that distinguish from me as an individual human with all the memories and personality that goes with it. And 'me' the consciousness that is potentially separate to 'me' the individual as formerly described, a consciousness that is experiencing the thoughts and emotions of the me formerly described. both me's can be thought of as me from their own perspectives. But one is me my brains reactions to stimuli and mind expressed by my unique neural network. And the other me that is being referred to by questions like 'why am I me as opposed to anyone else? Surely I could just as easily be experiencing existence from the perspective of anyone else to have ever lived'.

We don't have adequate words to describe the differences here. Even comprehending the difference is made difficult because describing the difference to another who hasn't happened to stumble on such awareness of the difference for themselves, is made very problematic by the limitations of our language. I wonder if any other language offers words that discern the difference im describing and assume you are too. I'm sure if you are referring to what I describe then this explanation will make perfect sense. For anyone who isn't following what I'm trying to get at, try looking up the swampman paradox on Wikipedia, I happened to think of the paradox by chance a long time ago and eventually discovered not at all to my surprise that someone else thought of it first, and fortuitously gave is a name.

Anyhow, yes, it's that me and that you that I believe lives on. After the other me and you dies. And likely has lived infinite existances, every existence it possibly could experience over and over for all time provided the universe (the big universe not just our little observerable universe, the universe of all and everything ever) provides for such cyclical infinities of existence. Seeing as every possibility is certain to eventuate providing for every version of our lives to be available for us to experience at every point in history as well as every other alien history and alien version of our lives to ever potentially exist.

In short, while you wont be reincarnated as you, you also by sheer probably improbably chance will experience your life over again as well as every variation of it as well as every similar kind of person that could exist and house your continued experience and consciousness as well as all compatible alien life and all compatible life on earth as well as every other earth that isn't our earth but yet is identical in all ways but you to the extent that such is possible.

Wild huh? Isn't the universe awesome in its possibilities. The only thing more awesome with possibility is infinite time and cyclical multiple universes.
 
What do you guys think about spirits, or more precisely the possibility that your spirit still exists after you die? If you do believe in spirits do you believe they can interact with the living? I'm open to the idea although I haven't formed a concrete opinion. I have known people or read about people that either claimed they could feel the presence of a loved one that passed or that the spirit would actually interact with the living world like for instance turning lights on and off or such. I gotta say it would be fun to fuck with people if your spirit does in fact remain. lol

Anything is possible because we don't know. I try not to speculate too much on the unknown. Many people decide to believe what brings them the most emotional comfort.
 
^ to be fair, energy is just energy. The matter that makes us up came from inorganic sources, and constantly leaves us to be somewhere else (a body is always in exchange with its environment). It's not "anybody's" energy, it's just energy.

The way I see it, similar to what Jess said, is that the subjective experience goes on, but nothing that makes me into what I am is carried over. The reasoning is simple: I'm having a subjective experience and I'm a human, therefore it's likely that other humans have one too, and it also seems likely to me that the current subjective experience is not the first one for me. The reason why nothing carries over is because as far as we know, everything that makes an organism is physical (brain, genome etc) and that is lost at death. So I would expect to continue living after death as someone else (not necessarily human), but without any awareness of my previous lives, and with a different personality/everything.

This, along with what Jess said is really interesting. I used to think about reincarnation quite a bit, it's very interesting. And, like Cosmic, the part that I was most sold on was the "enery cannot be created nor destroyed" which is basic physical science that I learned about in high school. So that part was really easy to grasp, and made reincarnation a lot more credible in my eyes. I never really understood it very well (and still don't totally understand it) until I took the time to do some research.

And what you're saying makes a lot of sense to me. I don't firmly believe in it, but it's certainly worth a thought. It has supported itself with more science than most other religious beliefs I can think of.
 
Life can actually be quite interesting at times. I'm listening to a discussion on quantum mechanics and the debate between Einstein and Bohr. And the Kratom doesn't hurt either. =D
 

Yes, we're thinking of the same thing. It's actually so far the question that fucks with my head the most. The rest I can for the most part answer (albeit only qualitatively in some cases) scientifically, but not this.

This, along with what Jess said is really interesting. I used to think about reincarnation quite a bit, it's very interesting. And, like Cosmic, the part that I was most sold on was the "enery cannot be created nor destroyed" which is basic physical science that I learned about in high school. So that part was really easy to grasp, and made reincarnation a lot more credible in my eyes. I never really understood it very well (and still don't totally understand it) until I took the time to do some research.

And what you're saying makes a lot of sense to me. I don't firmly believe in it, but it's certainly worth a thought. It has supported itself with more science than most other religious beliefs I can think of.

I'm not sure if I missed something, but what energy are you guys talking about? Are you talking about the energy that makes up all systems and particles in our universe, or the "personal" energy or whatever? Because if it's the former, then I don't see how you can associate anything with it. As I said, energy is just energy. Just like the atoms that make you are just atoms, and you don't even retain them for long (they come and go, but you stay). There's no "stamp" on energy that says it came from you or anything like that. For all you know, according to laws of probability, it's likely that you're drinking water molecules that passed through Hitler's bladder at some point, but it doesn't make them special in any way.
 
i can say that i think i'm not afraid of death, but if i was confronted with my body expiring, i'm not sure if i would feel ready. i guess a part of it is what do we identify as? if its just this body then we would see it as losing all we are, but theres also the aspect that we are a part of a greater whole, and that death is a returning to that. death is coming home or waking up from this dream.
 
I'm not sure if I missed something, but what energy are you guys talking about? Are you talking about the energy that makes up all systems and particles in our universe, or the "personal" energy or whatever? Because if it's the former, then I don't see how you can associate anything with it. As I said, energy is just energy. Just like the atoms that make you are just atoms, and you don't even retain them for long (they come and go, but you stay). There's no "stamp" on energy that says it came from you or anything like that. For all you know, according to laws of probability, it's likely that you're drinking water molecules that passed through Hitler's bladder at some point, but it doesn't make them special in any way.

I'm referring to the energy that is a part of me. Every living thing contains and is made of energy. Admittedly, I don't know a lot about science. The premise of my understanding of reincarnation from a scientific standpoint is little more than: "Energy cannot be created nor destroyed, so something must happen to my energy when I die. It must go somewhere."

Like I said, I'm not very well educated when it comes to science. And when you say "energy is just energy", I'm not entirely sure what your argument is or what your point is. Although I'm interested and would like to know if you could further explain.

Edit: Alright I re-read your post and your point is a little clearer to me now. I think I see what you mean as far as your energy is not with you throughout your entire life, it's always changing just like your physical makeup. But that poses the question, in my mind, where does this energy go? Even the energy that leaves as you are alive, and the energy that leaves immediately upon your death?

Also, I by no means believe in reincarnation; it's just something I've pondered before. Good discussion everyone, let's not let it get derailed anymore.
 
^ every time you take a piss, a whole bunch of molecules leave your system. Matter is equivalent to energy. That's the kind of energy I'm talking about. I don't think it's useful to talk about energy in the human context, because we're made of matter, and people often don't see the connection. What I meant by energy coming and going, but you staying is easily seen if you ingest a radiolabeled substance. It will circulate around the body for a bit, and then get excreted. You appear unchanged, but in reality trillions of trillions of molecules/atoms leave your system every day, just as about the same amount you "ingest" from your environment.

I'm not very good at explaining myself, am I?
 
I think most of the side discussions are interesting too and are worthwhile, they spring naturally from the OP and so IMO are relevant. In a thread this long they are natural and gonna happen.

BD is correct. I think most people don't have the depth of understanding of energy he/she does. As the idea is used here though we tend to think of "our" energy as a whole unit which is wrong but worthwhile within the discussion IMO.

I think there is no reincarnation of the "self" but the energy doesn't just disappear. IMO reincarnation is a convenient way to deal with our death anxieties or if you will our mortality issues. In the end it's very difficult to accept the idea that we who are so driven by self-importance, naturally I might add, can conceive of the possibility that we just won't be around for the show at some point and existence will go on without is. It will be like we never were. What a blow to the ego self.
 
^ every time you take a piss, a whole bunch of molecules leave your system. Matter is equivalent to energy. That's the kind of energy I'm talking about. I don't think it's useful to talk about energy in the human context, because we're made of matter, and people often don't see the connection. What I meant by energy coming and going, but you staying is easily seen if you ingest a radiolabeled substance. It will circulate around the body for a bit, and then get excreted. You appear unchanged, but in reality trillions of trillions of molecules/atoms leave your system every day, just as about the same amount you "ingest" from your environment.

Yeah I get what you're saying here. Would you say that the energy/matter that we are always losing returns to our environment, or other organisms in our environment? Just as we are constantly taking in energy/mass from our environment. Is there any scientific evidence that can answer this question? I'm genuinely interested and enjoy reading through these thoughts on the subject. Plus, it seems the conversation has taken a scientific turn, and gives me a chance to learn new stuff.

I'm not very good at explaining myself, am I?

Nah you good bruh. I'm seriously uneducated when it comes to this science, I feel like I should already be aware of some of the things you're saying. Should have taken more science classes in high school.
 
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Nah you good bruh. I'm seriously uneducated when it comes to science, I feel like I should already be aware of some of the things you're saying. Should have taken more science classes in high school.

Google is your friend.
 
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