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12 step discussion thread Voice your opinions here!

Burnt Offerings said:
...and I don't think that the mantra of "we are powerless over our addictions" is particularly helpful...
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I agree with you! They need another father figure to carry on sober and stay off the alcohol abuse. When it would be much more protuctive to grow up themselves and take responsibility.
 
I also don't like the powerless mantra but for a different reason. I think maintaining sobriety is an awesome accomplishment and something people should be proud of for doing because regardless of your faith you were the one that chose sobriety, not God.
I know a man with almost 20 years sobriety who doesn't take any credit for staying sober, he says God just took away the desire to drink. I believe in God and think prayer is an important tool but I don't think God just waves a wand and fixes you.
 
My recovery model is going to empower the addict, and get rid of any religious/spiritual nonsense, and use science and the scientific method to figure out why each person uses, and how best to correct it. I also will not allow people going for court to get a paper signed. You either want to be there, or you don't go.

I agree with the idea that we are not powerless over our addictions. We are actually quite willful, but instead of exerting our will in a positive direction, we chose a negative. Think about the steps we would go through in active addiction to use. Is this not powerful? Is it not driven? Are we not so cunning in order to maintain a habit? We are actually very powerful and dynamic people. Most addicts I have met have been incredibly talented in some way, or are very intelligent. I will not allow an imaginary deity to take credit for mine, and others achievements. It adds a certain mysticism to addicting that actually makes it harder for people to stop. Saying you need god to fix this is turning a health issue into a moral issue, which I believe just muddies the waters.

I am still working on the recovery model, but I have the bare bones. There are levels. First level is detox and mental health. Second level is coping, and learning the skills needed to stay clean, third level is working to correct your financial, legal, and interpersonal problems. Fourth level is teaching the other levels to people. There is no need for a sponsor because everyone helps each other. It is tasked to everyone that is farther along to help the newcomers. There will be a few heads to each meeting, and those people will decide if you are ready to start the next area of learning.

I also want to start a few detoxes that are based around tapering rather than cold turkey. Cold turkey is incredibly dangerous for quite a few addictions.
 
[MENTION=289844]manboychef[/MENTION], what kind of vision/plans do you have for this model you're designing? The world really needs something like this, and fast. I wonder what the most effective way to get addicted people "working the program" (sorry, terrible choice of words) is.
 
manboychef said:
My recovery model is going to empower the addict, and get rid of any religious/spiritual nonsense, and use science and the scientific method to figure out why each person uses, and how best to correct it. I also will not allow people going for court to get a paper signed. You either want to be there, or you don't go.

I agree with the idea that we are not powerless over our addictions. We are actually quite willful, but instead of exerting our will in a positive direction, we chose a negative. Think about the steps we would go through in active addiction to use. Is this not powerful? Is it not driven? Are we not so cunning in order to maintain a habit? We are actually very powerful and dynamic people. Most addicts I have met have been incredibly talented in some way, or are very intelligent. I will not allow an imaginary deity to take credit for mine, and others achievements. It adds a certain mysticism to addicting that actually makes it harder for people to stop. Saying you need god to fix this is turning a health issue into a moral issue, which I believe just muddies the waters.

I am still working on the recovery model, but I have the bare bones. There are levels. First level is detox and mental health. Second level is coping, and learning the skills needed to stay clean, third level is working to correct your financial, legal, and interpersonal problems. Fourth level is teaching the other levels to people. There is no need for a sponsor because everyone helps each other. It is tasked to everyone that is farther along to help the newcomers. There will be a few heads to each meeting, and those people will decide if you are ready to start the next area of learning.

I also want to start a few detoxes that are based around tapering rather than cold turkey. Cold turkey is incredibly dangerous for quite a few addictions.
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I agree with you and would love to help you start something like this. I'm working on getting a PhD in addiction psychology and also am a recovered heroin addict.
 
In my opinion being completely abstinent is unnecessary for most addicts. In my case I as a heroin addict. According to AA I can never smoke weed or drink or do cocaine or any mood altering substance without resorting back to heroin. That is just unbelievable to me that people actually believe this. What about the caffeine and nicotine that almost everyone in AA does on a daily basis? Those are drugs to lmao. Contradicting themselves from the get go.
 
I mean, define abstinence? From all drugs, including processed sugar, caffiene and nicotine (all drug I guilty pleasures of mine), or harder drugs like heroin, coke and alcohol?
 
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I believe that once you get at least a year or more sober a person can make the distinction on a case by case basis what drugs are okay. As you stated before, people still take caffeine and nicotine. Nicotine is actually worse for you than most drugs. I think it boils down with changing the behaviors that caused you to seek out your drug of choice, and do anything to get it, that will keep you sober. Abstinent is not sober. Occasionally I like a glass of wine...if I didn't have such panic attacks I would smoke pot. It is up to the individual to decide what is right for them. That is one of the problems with AA/NA. First of all you give your problem to god...why not take responsibility for yourself? Secondly, you have a sponsor telling you what to do. I know that sponsors are only supposed to guide you, but there are many that actively make decisions for you. This is not helpful to learning how to live without your DOC. Ultimately it is up to the person trying to get clean to decide what changes need to be made, and how to implement them.

I would gladly accept any help when it comes to the new recovery model. I will keep working on it, and start a thread for it soon.
 
Burnt Offerings said:
I don't agree with the core principles of AA/NA. I think most addicts have some measure of control over their addiction, for example, and I don't think that the mantra of "we are powerless over our addictions" is particularly helpful. Some people find success with that kind of program but it's not for me...it's pointless to try and embrace a program when you can't even agree with the most fundamental argument of said program[/QUOTE

I totally agree with you about this terribly dis-empowering first step that we are "powerless over our addictions". It would be so much more helpful to empower addicts with the idea that they actually can learn to excercise more will power. It is now known that this is possible and there are many exercises that can strengthen willpower considerably, to help overcome cravings and maintain sobriety. I really believe this is a much more helpful and positive approach than the outmoded and negative approach of 12 step programs.
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toothpastedog said:
I mean, define abstinence? From all drugs, including processed sugar, caffiene and nicotine (all drug I guilty pleasures of mine), or harder drugs like heroin, coke and alcohol?
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I don't usually like to quibble over "abstinence", but I always found it really bizarre how people at AA/NA would go on and on about abstinence while continuing to consume probably the most destructive/addictive psychoactive drug on the planet (nicotine in the form of cigarettes)
 
Burnt Offerings said:
I don't usually like to quibble over "abstinence", but I always found it really bizarre how people at AA/NA would go on and on about abstinence while continuing to consume probably the most destructive/addictive psychoactive drug on the planet (nicotine in the form of cigarettes)
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I too have noticed that loads of "recovered" addicts in NA/AA smoke tobacco.

I also have issues with total abstinence; for some addicts it is undoubtedly an absolute life-saving necessity, but many addicts leave rehab and live much healthier lives by reducing their usage to safer, less frequent levels without becoming totally abstinent.
I don't regard these people as failures and think that harm reduction is still a positive outcome. It is also a more reasonable expectation - there must be a good number of addicts who never get treatment because they are put off by the idea of total abstinence.

I expect that this is a controversial view for some.
 
Mazzy in Europe said:
I expect that this is a controversial view for some.
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That is because many 12 Steppers are very small-minded, which is sad. That community has so much to offer, it is really a shame their culture is so confrontational and narrow minded as a whole.
 
I tried the steps and NA. I felt it was not for me. I have seen it worked wonders for others though. I always had the idea that I wanted to be recovered instead of in recovery. I am stills irking to achieve this and will stop at nothing. After five years sober. I have drank a few times the past few years and I was able to quit after a certain number of drinks unlike my rehab doctor said I would. My drug of choice was opiates though. The thing is I really do not know what to believe after looking up and reading so many articles it seems like the consensus is addiction is a brain disease and you must treat it like such. Others say it is not so black and white which I agree with. My rehab's doctor and founder says it is black and white. He believed that if you were able to have a drink and do fine with it in recovery then you were not a true addict. Funny I was a true addict when my insurance was paying them 5k a month. Anyway I truly believed he was trying to help people. But I still do not have a clear view on addiction and if the twelve steps are necessary. From what I read from pro brain disease model doctors is addiction is strictly a dopamine disorder and if you can moderate then you just have a substance abuse problem not addiction. I really do not know as I am still learning as I have been the past five years. I have my good days and my bad, but what I can tell you is my addictive voice loves loves using pieces of the brain disease model into getting me to use. I think addiction is more of a spectrum type disorder, but like I said I am still learning. Anyway I will post the addiction dr. video down below if anyone wants to see what I am talking about. Hope everyone is doing well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdQncmG3t8o
 
Understanding addiction as a learning disorder more than a neurocognative disorder is much more useful IMO. Cognative science tends to create far too mechanistic paradigms to understand addiction than the realities of the nuances of addiction as a biopsychosocial disorder actually are in practice as opposed to more abstracted theory. The cognative sciences do however have a lot to offer when it comes to understanding and treating addiction, it is just when you overlook addiction's multidimentional social dimensions, as the humanist appoarch of cognative science tends to, you end up missing out on the the bigger picture. That being, addiction is a learned set of behaviors, hence the term "habit."
 
Everything in life is "cafeteria style"--you can take what is useful to you and leave the rest. Of course the fanatics need their dogma so they will not present it that way but who cares? Have compassion for them as well--maybe they need the rules and ideologies now but will grow out of that down the road. I took what was useful to me from the 12-steps (in Al-anon) and left the rest in the room. It's your mind, your life. The less you judge others and their choices the less susceptible you are to the judgments of others and the more you can simply see your life as your own personal creation. I find the 12-steps to be pretty harmless good advice for living in general. My issue with them AA/NA is that it does not continue to morph and grow with all the new science around addiction. Well that, and also the fact that they are given a monopoly as far as treatment goes by judges and courts etc.
 
Well said, and it is so true that the people who irk you the most, the dogmatists and bleeding deacons, they are the ones most in need of compassion. Such a good point herby, this is why I have so much love and respect for your insights and knowledge. Thank you :)
 
I enjoyed both of your responses. The thing is if you want help they tell you 12 steps is your only option and you have an incurable disease. I only see it getting worse. Especially when you have the President saying its a disease and getting people like Macklemore to do PSA's advocating it is a brain disease and how he got clean through AA. Which is fine, but the ever since we have been telling people addiction is an incurable disease addiction as risen dramatically. There has got to be a better way.
 
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