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12 step discussion thread Voice your opinions here!

treezy z said:
First meeting today a noon time in my area.

Really hit home. I need to stay in the hood (South side of my town) to relate, I've been to real straight laced meetings in the past and didn't fit in.

I'm Street/ hood whatever don't want to listen to squares.
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Glad you found a meeting that fits you! I've been to some where I couldn't relate to anybody there and it was really uncomfortable. Good mix on your journey and stay strong! If you have questions or need support come back to this forum - there are a lot of knowledgable people here.
 
treezy z said:
I'm getting out of detox tomorrow morning.

I'm doing 90 in 90 but maybe more than one a day, none a day or two a week after a month.

I will be doing something for my recovery every single day.

Two CBT groups a week, Church Sunday, work out every damn day, making music as a coping skill.

I've heard you're not supposed to fuck for a while or is that relationships. I don't want a relationship but I NEED to fuck.
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Anyone who says you cant have sex is an idiot. Though I think getting in a relationship too quick can lead to disaster.
 
I don't do relationships right now anyway. I'd rather be a girls sidepiece than boyfriend, he can listen to her bitch I can relieve her stress.
 
I remember getting ready to leave a six month stint of treatment when i was about 21 and talking about relationships and stuff. My councillor took me aside and told me that when i leave i should buy a plant. If it was still alive in a year then i should buy some fish. If they were still alive in a year then i should buy a pet. If it was still alive in a year then i would be in a place to think about relationships. Haha a bit extreme but there you go. Relationships in early recovery can definitely be toxic but then you dont need to be an addict to have a shitty relationship. As it was i ignored what that wise man told me along with everything else he said and was back on the needle within 24 hours. Yup!! It took me another 13 years to get clean for good.
 
treezy z said:
I don't do relationships right now anyway. I'd rather be a girls sidepiece than boyfriend, he can listen to her bitch I can relieve her stress.
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This cracked me up, treezy. Not a bad bargain for the girl IMO although can't see too many boyfriends being on board with that.
 
It is sad, I have had a lot of expose to the 12 Step community over the last decade, and maybe I have just be seriously unlucky on the people I have met at meetings, conventions and treatment centers who promote it, but AA and NA folks here in LA have given me some of the worst, most harmful advice and suggestions in my recovery. Maybe I am just different, but honestly some of the shit I was told to do ended up affecting me so negatively, and I encountered a number of people who had similar experiences.

I mean, 12 Step stuff can be so empowering and supportive in recovery, but it all depends on how the texts and traditions are interpreted and used by people in the community. They be used to help people achieve miraculous results, just as well as they can be used to exploit and harm vulnerable newcomers. When 12 Step tools are used in dogmatic, narrow minded ways, they can be incredibly harmful. When used with an open mind focused on doing no harm and helping different people with different needs, such as those with co-occuring disorder (which sadly rarely happens, though it does happen more than it used to; ut is just that 12 Step folks invariably end up working with such people without any training or knowledge of mental illness), the tools the 12 Steps provide can be invaluable.
 
toothpastedog said:
It is sad, I have had a lot of expose to the 12 Step community over the last decade, and maybe I have just be seriously unlucky on the people I have met at meetings, conventions and treatment centers who promote it, but AA and NA folks here in LA have given me some of the worst, most harmful advice and suggestions in my recovery. Maybe I am just different, but honestly some of the shit I was told to do ended up affecting me so negatively, and I encountered a number of people who had similar experiences.

I mean, 12 Step stuff can be so empowering and supportive in recovery, but it all depends on how the texts and traditions are interpreted and used by people in the community. They be used to help people achieve miraculous results, just as well as they can be used to exploit and harm vulnerable newcomers. When 12 Step tools are used in dogmatic, narrow minded ways, they can be incredibly harmful. When used with an open mind focused on doing no harm and helping different people with different needs, such as those with co-occuring disorder (which sadly rarely happens, though it does happen more than it used to; ut is just that 12 Step folks invariably end up working with such people without any training or knowledge of mental illness), the tools the 12 Steps provide can be invaluable.
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This is exactly one of the reasons why I am working on a new recovery protocol that incorporates mental health help. All addicts do not have co-occurring mental disorders, however most are self medicating for one reason or another. If you are working with a therapist and start seeing another therapist it is considered a clash of interests. Why then should your 12 steppers be your therapist? At the very core twelve stepping is okay, but a lot of groups are hellbent on trying to fix you, rather than help you grow in a non judgmental welcoming forum. In fact "progress before perfection." says it best, but I would say 1 out of 3 meetings I have went to over the years had people in the room that demanded you strictly adhere to their ideas (which in their eyes would be perfection I guess).

Treezy, It is good to seek help. Just remember if your sponsor is not working out for you, you can always fire him and get another. Never feel obligated to stay with a sponsor that you just aren't meshing with.
 
Well said MBC, and I hope I get a chance to collaborate on your new protocol with you :)
 
doing well on 90 in 90 meeting every day since detox, going to a big book meeting tonight to do some work with my sponsor.
 
Nice work! That is a bigger commitment than it sounds to most people. How have you been finding the experience? I feel like that is one of the best suggestions to keep one on track early in the process. Regardless of what kind of meeting one goes to, committing to one a day for three months, not even more or less, is pretty fucking useful when you look back on the experience.

I feel like it can also be a bad thing if one doesnt feel comfortable at the meetings one goes to over and over and over again each day for months, but as long as you find meetings you feel comfortable with and stick to those as your home base, while trying others here and there for a little taste of change once in a while, it works out marvolously.
 
The meetings I've been to are great, most people I've met are cool I go around shake hands get numbers etc, my sponsor has been good lots of pointers/tips etc. every day.
 
That is awesome treezy. I am glad you have found a good sponsor. I still keep in contact with mine when I need some advice. I rarely attend meetings now. Used to be once a month, now I only go when I need to commiserate with other addicts.

Let me know when you get to step four. I should do a new one for this year and it would be cool to work with someone on it.
 
What I should be saying to you is that you shouldn't try it. But drinking will bring you back to harder drugs. I relapsed about 2 months ago and when i did everything fell to the side, but... I'm still using and managing to get through college at the same time, and only using heavily at the weekends.

NA/AA just didnt do it for me..
 
manboychef said:
That is awesome treezy. I am glad you have found a good sponsor. I still keep in contact with mine when I need some advice. I rarely attend meetings now. Used to be once a month, now I only go when I need to commiserate with other addicts.

Let me know when you get to step four. I should do a new one for this year and it would be cool to work with someone on it.
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Hey, MBC. Not to insert myself into your recovery, but I'm working on my first step right now. I'm hoping to get to the fourth one within a few months. I might hit you up then to see if you're still interested in finding a step 4 buddy!
 
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My thoughts on 12 Step Programs

Hi all,

I was trying to reply to a thread on saw on my mobile, but screwed that one all up. However I think that it is important for people to know some things about how to get the most out of ANY 12 step program... IMO

1) It is a SELFISH program!! You will hear this a lot in 'the rooms', however people often fail to take this as seriously as it should be! How do YOU want to live? Have a problem with Meth? You LOVE H? Coke is your thing? You want to get rid of that drug, your drug of CHOICE, but don't necessarily want to give up those 3 drinks you have here and there? Do that!! Use the 12 steps to make it past 1 drug, 2 drugs, 18 drugs... whatever works (or doesn't;-) for you! If you want to get rid of them all, do that! Do what you need, after all it is a selfish program.

2) There is no religion required... where anything from literature to prayers says the word 'god', please insert noun of your choice. The typical saying in the rooms is something along the lines of 'your higher power can be a door knob, you just have to choose something.'

3) The program is a tool, as a tool you can use it, it should not use you. This is something you have to remember. Just like any power tool there is a risk that the safety fails and you will end up used. BUT if you are careful, pay attention to what you are doing with the tool, you will either stop the tool when it tries to 'use you', or quickly recover.

4) An addict is an addict, IS an addict! I don't care if the person you invited over to your house has 10 years clean, in the rooms an addict is an addict, there is no cure! This means that often people still have addict behaviors... THEY ARE AN ADDICT! I can't tell you how many times I went to a meeting and listened to someone say 'I can't believe they ripped me off--- THEY ARE IN THE PROGRAM!' So what? Just because you can stand up and say 'Hi, my name is Gina, I'm an addict or alcoholic' or fill in this blank with your choice of program, does NOT mean they are perfect, magically healed, or any other state of mind people may associate with recovery. Just because they are in the rooms doesn't even mean they work the 'program'.

5) Choosing a sponsor is more difficult than you would think... remember rule 4, an addict is an addict! This means that not only do you need to look for someone that has something that you want (this means you know they know how to get it, and they can teach you. Not that you get to take it!), but they are also actively working their steps (after all, this is what the 12 steps are all about, and they really do help!), AND, and this is a BIG one, AND they are willing to accept the way you are going to work your program in reagards to your sobriety/clean time. This also means you have to be honest. AKA- Hi, my name is Gina, I really like what you had to say, and want to know if you are actively working your steps? You are, great! I would like to tell you a little about how I need to work my program... At this point I would suggest you ask them to meet you somewhere without an audience. Why? Because even 'enlightened' people that have worked the steps, and are now 'perfect', are assholes! This means that if you tell the person you are asking to be your sponsor 'I have a real problem with H, and want to work my steps around that, but I occasionally use meth, which is not going to stop. Are you willing to work with me on these terms?' where everyone in the room gets to hear you, they will 'take your inventory' or as those outside of the rooms call it- judge you.

As a whole, 12 step programs are wonderful, but take a little bit of stubbornness on your part. Believe what you believe, know what you want, understand what you are getting into.

I found NA to be an awesome, rewarding, and helpful part of my life for a lot of years. I needed it to quit my DOC. Then I grew up a little more, realized I had no desire to use my 'DO(not)C', but I did want to live life on life's terms, be the mom I wanted to be. So I got a real life (which the program did help me figure out). I can say that NA was a big part of that. It is no longer really a part of my life. My man is 35 years clean, and does occasionally go to meetings.

Even when I first moved up here years ago, I did not like the fellowship like I loved the fellowship where I got clean. So, while I go to the occasional meeting with my man, I no longer really participate. Why? I take medication and even occasionally drink. Does this mean that they don't want me there? TBH, I don't know and don't care! Because my stuff is mine, I don't feel the need to announce to the room 'Hey- I know for years I identified as an addict, I just don't anymore'. I sit and support my man, take inventory on all those people who are 'still sick'... no, no I don't really;). I do sit and be supportive. The people there are always kind to me, and treat me like one of their own, if they wonder why I don't speak up, they don't ask. It is no longer something I need, so it is no longer my program.

I did my time, so if I can help by answering your question (please remember it will only be with my opinion, which is what got me off my DOC to began with), please feel free to ask in anyway you would like.

Get safe out there, any way you can! Thank you for reading my tirade! If it belongs elsewhere, please move it!=D
 
Hey, GRSH. I like a lot of what you said in your post. Especially about the stubbornness that's needed if we hope to make the most of NA. I agree. As an NA member, I am adamant about where my boundaries are with respect to the fellowship; my recovery involves NA, but it also involves other modalities, some of which NA dogma frowns on (e.g. I still use cannabis). I've found that I have to fight (not other people so much as my own insecurities) to keep my place at the table. Once I came to terms with that, my relationship with NA got a lot better. That is, once I stopped trying to groom myself as a 12-step poster child.

One question: how do you square your (totally understandable) assertion that you don't identify as an addict now with your Point 4: (..."there is no cure...")? These seem rather at odds. Maybe I'm misunderstanding?

Thanks for the thoughtful post, though.
 
simco- I no longer identify as an addict. The only qualification for NA is a desire to stop using. There is nothing left in my life that I need the desire to stop using for. I continued to participate in NA for several reasons, first and foremost I had an amazing sponsor, she was spiritual and caring. The steps were a fantastic tool in my life, and I used them to further my own self. As time went on, I started drifting away from the fellowship, and I started doing that thing that I think should be the aspiration of all persons in recovery- living.

I used the tools I learned in doing the 12 steps, and applied them to my life (most of the steps are fantastic for anyone who wants to live happy). In the process of living life, I realized that the term addict did not feel right to me. I became a productive member of society, I lived, I loved, I worked, I cried, and not once, not even for a second did I think 'Wow, I really want to use again', not once did I hear the voice of my DOC calling me, not once did I consider that I missed it. Quitting my habit was not hard.

It is possible that I am deluding myself. I drink occasionally now. Not often, and even less frequently do I drink to excess. I do have an ice cream problem I need to start taking seriously (lol).

I know many people, that were it not for the rooms profess that they would have died, and hearing their stories, I often believe it is the truth. I had never heard of the possibilities of harm reduction, and feel that for many that I know that have passed on due to their addiction, depression, and especially pain (I know many an addict that while in chronic pain and attempting the program couldn't handle it and ended their pain permanently), would have benefited from this philosophy. They say the program ruins the high when you go back out, I now wonder if this is what caused so many lives to end when the guilt of needing something for the pain caught up to the person.

I think that it is wonderful that this is not the case for you. I admire that you are using what you need, and leaving the guilt and stigma that is often attached to people in the rooms that need the relief you obviously are getting from your choice. I think your story, and strength will benefit people who find they have a problem and need the help of NA, but also of a substance that honestly helps them to live their life to the fullest.

When I say 'there is no cure', I am speaking program, and a little sarcastic. I really just want people to understand that people in the program are real people. They are not perfect, just because they sit in the rooms, talk the talk, etc. If a person is truly working their program, they are more likely to be trust worthy, and many are. I often hear in the rooms a story of misplaced trust in a fellow 12 stepper, they always end with 'but they are in the program!', and simply wish that people not go blindly into trust of all that enter. However, there is the occasional person that looks perfect, acts like they are deep into their program, and yet are not. I once knew a 12 stepper that sponsored several people, and guided them through the steps, but had never worked a single step themselves. This is dishonest, and makes a sham out of what should be a completely honest relationship. I turned down many newcomers asking me to sponsor them as I had not completed my steps. Having never completed my own, how could I have guided them?

My apologies in taking so long to get back to you. I am thankful everyday for my time in the program. I am thankful everyday for the person that explained to me that it is a selfish program and I should work it to my own specifications. I often wish that I would have kept this fact in my heart.
 
P.S. Thank you to whom ever moved this! This is exactly where I was trying to put it!!
 
Thanks for the clarification. I totally agree--the real goal in recovery is to live a full life. I'm so glad to hear you've found that. So many people don't, whether they're addicted or not.

Peace. Sim.
 
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