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12 step discussion thread Voice your opinions here!

Yes it is a great article. I do a lot of amateur reporting on the Middle East and North Africa (not tooting my own horn, but I know quite a bit about Islam and Islamic Culture). Because of this I got lots of Iranians following me and contacting me on twitter. I can tell you something is brewing down there (again). People are openly defying the ultra conservative authorities. I also note "recovery" on my twitter profile and often get asked if I know what NA is by these people. NA is very respected down there and could be something that helps bring reconciliation between Iran and the US.
 
My views on the 12 step programs . . I've done NA 12 steps and AA 12 steps, am sober 16 months. My personal view is that it has its place and time in someones recovery. Since the beginning of time man has looked to God or a Higher Power or Spirits to explain things he could not. "God makes it rain makes us have drought pray to god so we can have a good harvest this year", etc. you see where I am going. Addiction is incredibly complicated and not understood and just as our ancestors used "God" as the answer to things they didn't understand like science, the weather, etc. we are currently doing this with addiction. Saying we suffer from a "spiritual void" and that we need "God" to relieve us of our obsession to use is in my opinion ridiculous. The cold hard facts are that for every 1 addict who recovers through a 12 step program there are roughly 2 people who did it on their own. There are more ways to recover than just the 12 steps and if it is working for you and you enjoy it keep on it, if it isn't for you or you aren't enjoying it you still have hope and can find another path. 12 step programs aren't the only road to recovery.

I also have an issue with "all I have to share is my personal experience" this experience is valuable but a lot of people over emphasize "what worked for them". Experiential knowledge is incredibly limited and it seems a lot of people that I have met in 12 step programs believe what got them better or I should say what they think got them better will work for the newcomer. The fact is no one can look deep inside their soul and determine what got them sober what worked what didn't. Was it causation (A = B) 12 steps = recovery OR was it reverse causation (B = A) recovery = 12 steps (i.e. you started to recover and decided to start participating in the 12 step program) or is it correlation and some third variable caused you to both engage in the 12 step program and recover?

Look up the "practitioner's fallacy" to get an idea of the bias people in the "program" see. For me 12 step programs had their place and time in my recovery and I'm grateful for it but at the end of the day lots of the beliefs "abstinence is the only solution" and "bottom out" ideas are a bunch of shit that end up leading to our degradation as a community at large not to mention death of 1000's of addicts each year.
 
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lman_15 said:
Look up the "practitioner's fallacy" to get an idea of the bias people in the "program" see. For me 12 step programs had their place and time in my recovery and I'm grateful for it but at the end of the day lots of the beliefs "abstinence is the only solution" and "bottom out" ideas are a bunch of shit that end up leading to our degradation as a community at large not to mention death of 1000's of addicts each year.
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So is this the fault of the 12 steps or just a part of the relapse cycle? People would still be prone to increased death at relapse for many reasons even if the 12 steps never existed.

As for the talk of "in my experience" its actually to prevent people from claiming to have "expert opinions" or "advice". Why? Because as addicts/alcoholics we shouldn't be giving "advice" to other addicts. Everyone is different and everyone's road to recovery is different. I have lots of education that would allow me to make statements about addiction that might make me sound more credible and back up what I say. However, when it comes to my recovery, I am an idiot. Who am I to make all sorts of claims when I myself can only stay clean with the help of therapists and NA?

And also, I will say it again. Society very much respects people who have gotten clean. AA and later NA were instrumental in turning the concept of addiction away from "moral failing" towards what we know about it today.

I am not sure how "abstinence only" leads to "degradation" either. If anything, me realizing I cannot use drugs and alcohol with any success gives me a sense of pride. Everyday I do not use empowers me. Furthermore, those that do know that I am trying hard to recover support me and begin to place confidence in me again. That is the epitome of empowerment to me.

Anyways, I don't want to argue the 12 steps. They work for me and have worked for many others. God knows I tried and tried to reject them. I love NA today though. Just last night I a former CPS worker and a women who had her children removed (and now has 10 years clean) both took the opportunity to share with each other. We are healing together. That is an awesome feeling. Where else are two seemingly different people going to realize just how much we have in common? I am not talking about situations, I am talking about realizing just how much we share emotionally together.

http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2014/04/defense-12-step-addiction

This article is well researched and well supported. Background of the authors:

John F. Kelly, PhD., is the Elizabeth R. Spallin Associate Professor of Psychiatry in Addiction Medicine at Harvard Medical School, and the President of the American Psychological Association, Society of Addiction Psychology. He is also the Director of the Recovery Research Institute at Massachusetts General Hospital.

Gene Beresin, MD, MA, is Professor of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School and Executive Director of The Clay Center for Young Health Minds at Massachusetts General Hospital.
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phactor said:
Everyone is different and everyone's road to recovery is different.


Just last night I a former CPS worker and a women who had her children removed (and now has 10 years clean) both took the opportunity to share with each other. We are healing together. That is an awesome feeling. Where else are two seemingly different people going to realize just how much we have in common? I am not talking about situations, I am talking about realizing just how much we share emotionally together.
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That must have been a very powerful moment to witness, Phactor.

I too feel very strongly that everyone that is fighting for their health, sanity and survival should use what they want from whatever exists around them. You can buy the whole package or some of the package. You can reject the whole package and find a different one that works for you. If it doesn't exist, start something new But whatever you do, make sure that you support your fellow traveler on this journey with compassion and understanding and an open mind. Arguing and fighting should be reserved for those that are holding this damn War on Drugs in place. When we are with each other (all those that have suffered from it) we need to be looking for bridges of understanding. This does not have to mean that we all subscribe to the same dogma, the same theories or even the same strategies. Keep learning, keep reading and keep discussing because knowledge moves us all forward together.
 
12-step alternatives

Whats up? Ive been working the 12-steps for about three years now. I have hard times with it because I had sponsors that I did not really like. I had them belittle me and talk down to me and stuff. Anyway, I have relapsed several times and that was when I was working the 12 steps in every way I'm suppose to do it, including sharing the message twice a week.

During an extended stay in jail I discovered Eckhart Tolle which has been a huge spiritual influence on me and has shifted my consciousness much more than a 12 step program. I don't even see addiction being a problem and if I did relapse I feel like it wouldn't be taken to the levels it was taken before because I am no longer searching to fill a void.

Does spiritual enlightenment play a part in addiction?

Does AA make you dependent on the program and make relapses worse?

Does AA make you subconsciously a worse addict?

Are there any alternatives to 12-step programs? Most AAers will say that there is no other way. I disagree.

Thoughts? Thanks!!
 
The Evil of AA

“Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way."

How many of you have heard this hogwash? And passive jab at anyone who rejects the "program." I know I have heard it hundreds of times. I've been to over 400 AA meetings across the country, I've watched as people were shamed after relapsing into relapsing again. I've seen "sponsors" who I wouldn't trust with a screwdriver guide vulnerable minded people through " the life saving literature of AA." I'm here to tell you it's as evil and a heartless group as Scientology or as much of a religion as the Jehovah Witnesses.

But the lives they've saved! How could you say that!

Well it's quite simple. There are no hard figures from AA to support their "life saving" efforts there are just anecdotes. But I have anecdotal evidence as well. I've seen (and been a victim) of their propaganda; that if you're an alcoholic you need to go to meetings and if you have a drink it will kill you. I have seen otherwise normal seeming people who may have been sent to AA by the court, leave a meeting with an idea that ONE drink will kill them.

Do you know what happens when you tell someone who's been through hell and guilt that one drink will kill them and then that person proceeds to drink?

It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

Stuart went to AA after he crashed his car into oncoming traffic. His wife left him, he went nearly bankrupt but he saw the light within Alcoholics Anonymous. He was sober for about 5 years. Then one day he drank. Oh, but it wasn't just one drink. Stuart decided to drink and drink and drink until he blacked out. He reached out to people to try to help him in the program and they read him from the big book of AA spells as though that would save his life. They tried to get him into a meeting - he eventually went, but had a panic attack and left. He continued to drink and tried to reach out to his "AA friends" but they refused to talk to him because doing so would "compromise their sobriety." Some friends. Stuart died. He committed suicide and stabbed himself in the gut 9 times. He was shamed, he was guilted by AA.

Stephanie only used to a "little bit of coke" on the weekends. Then one day during a police raid at her favorite bar she was busted by the cops facing a felony, she went to AA to reduce the charge to a misdemeanor. She had been sober only 5 months. She relapsed. The group made her count every day she was sober. Every day she walked in happy until the moment she had to announce her day count and you could see her shaking with anxiety as she announced it again. They were making her pay for what she did. They were shaming Stephanie. They were reminding her of what she lost. Stephanie left AA, binged again. But instead of going back started psychotherapy and now has been sober for a year and a half.

There are life saving drugs out there if you have a problem with alcohol. Gabapentin. Naltrexone. Vyvanse. Clonazapem. All these along with some light therapy can help you dig the demons that make you want to abuse drugs. You don't need to join a cult.


 
I'm confused. Why all the bold? Where is this from? What is the point?

Yeah, I'm not 12 step fan, and while I have a lot to say about their modality regarding treatment, it does help a huge amount of people.

This is an important subject (the limits of AA/NA/etc), but given the antagonist way you approach it OP, I don't see how this thread helps illuminate anything.
 
toothpastedog said:
I'm confused. Why all the bold? Where is this from? What is the point?

Yeah, I'm not 12 step fan, and while I have a lot to say about their modality regarding treatment, it does help a huge amount of people.

This is an important subject (the limits of AA/NA/etc), but given the antagonist way you approach it OP, I don't see how this thread helps illuminate anything.
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According to who it helps a huge amount of people? Most of the studies Ive seen say relapse is close to 80 percent in AA and they don't care to even look at the numbers of the people who disappear once they leave "the rooms." This is the sort of brain rot I'm talking about that AA seems to deliver to others.
 
Relapse is so common when dealing with addiction, it really is something that should be prepared for and expect, although not encouraged of course. Yes, AA/NA/etc do not help a lot of people, and hurt a lot of other people (like myself - the sponsor I was "assigned" by the rehab I was coerced into attending when I first sought help drugged and raped me, a.k.a. the 13th step), but the actual ideas behind the shitty people and meetings and rehabs that supposedly espouse AA/NA stuff are more or less fundamental to all of us in recovery.

As a system or treatment modality it isn't for everyone, and it shouldn't be promoted as such, which sadly it is more often than not in my experience, but it nonetheless dose offer a lot of support to many people. Let us not throw away the baby with the bath water, right?
 
toothpastedog said:
Relapse is so common when dealing with addiction, it really is something that should be prepared for and expect, although not encouraged of course. Yes, AA/NA/etc do not help a lot of people, and hurt a lot of other people (like myself - the sponsor I was "assigned" by the rehab I was coerced into attending when I first sought help drugged and raped me, a.k.a. the 13th step), but the actual ideas behind the shitty people and meetings and rehabs that supposedly espouse AA/NA stuff are more or less fundamental to all of us in recovery.

As a system or treatment modality it isn't for everyone, and it shouldn't be promoted as such, which sadly it is more often than not in my experience, but it nonetheless dose offer a lot of support to many people. Let us not throw away the baby with the bath water, right?
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No, let us do exactly that. The studies show that without AA people would be basically as good as left on their own devices. You don't believe that look at the latest studies from NIH or from the American Bar Association which specializes in defending people with alcoholic disorders. AA in fact makes the relapse WORSE because of the brain washing that goes on in the meetings that if you drink you die. Which is also - by the way - why the American Bar has another study that shows those who go into AA are likely to commit even more aggregious drinking offenses when they leave
 
Awesome! Would you share those with us here? Like links or references of some kind? I would love love love to read these :) Thank you polospy!
 
I'm not eager to get too into the thick of things right now. But there's a book that might be of interest to toothpastedog and polospy (and folks following what they're saying). Here's a link to it:

http://www.beacon.org/The-Sober-Truth-P1110.aspx

It's called The Sober Truth: Debunking the Bad Science Behind 12-Step Programs and the Rehab Industry, written by Lance Dodes. He reviews quite a bit of the literature calling into question the effectiveness of 12-step programs. Of course many people think he's got an axe to grind, but I found all of his books pretty compelling.

I would never tell someone I didn't know very closely *not* to try NA. Sure, give it a shot. But it strikes me as a niche program, certainly not something that should be our society's first line of treatment against addiction.
 
I really like Dodes, I read his The Heart of Addiction when I was a teen before getting into drugs or addicted to anything to begin with, so I guess I'll have to run that book down. Thanks for the idea :)

I agree, not our society's first line of defense, although what should be, I think, still is up for discussion? . . .
 
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toothpastedog said:
I really like Dodes, I read his The Heart of Addiction when I was a teen before getting into drugs or addicted to anything to begin with, so I guess I'll have to run that book down. Thanks for the idea :)

I agree, not our society's first line of defense, although what should be, I think, still is up for dissuasion? . . .
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...Definitely.

I really loathe most of the reporting on the so-called "heroin epidemic" in the US. But it is the case that a lot more attention is being paid to problems related to drug addiction these days than in the past. Maybe something good will come from that.
 
Yup, that's precisely how I feel about it all. Sickens me, but what can you do other than hope for the best. And I do believe we have reason to :)
 
went to my first AA meeting last week. was a "lead meeting." was about addiction in general, not just alcohol, which was nice. but i don't know about going back. hearing about drug use makes me want to use drugs, no matter whether stories glorify or demonize. on the flip side, hearing about sobriety does make me want to stay sober. and it is possible to talk about sobriety without talking about drugs, but that's not what was happening. plus there was a very strong christian element -- even though their god was presented as not being "church-y," it was still about accepting him into your life -- and the group's story was so different than mine. same drugs, but different walk of life. they had been homeless, in and out of prison, and so on. that's not what addiction looks like for me, and it doesn't feel relatable.
 
@hydro... I can't believe I'm defending 12-step programs (bad experience for me, personally), but as far as the religion goes, you might try attending another group's meeting. At least in NA, the various groups had very different "vibes," and different things they focused on. While a few went heavy on the God stuff, many others pretty much left it outside.

I say all this b/c 12-step programs do help some folks and I wouldn't want you to get robbed of something valuable. But for my own peace of mind, I'll also mention that in my experience religion entered into NA in a more subtle way... you sometimes here people say 12-step programs are cultish and I never found that to be true. But what I did ultimately decide was that they do have a strong similarity to a religion in their own right. I saw too many vulnerable people shamed for failing to follow "The Program" with enough purity for the group's taste, so I split.

But give it a shot... I did find that it's almost impossible to make generalizations across different NA groups.
 
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