12 step discussion thread Voice your opinions here!

[Chriscom]

Hi folks. I've had two periods of attending fellowship meetings. The first when i was in treatment as a teenager when i wasnt even close to being ready to quit. I thought i was ready to quit heroin but i felt i had some partying left to do to make up for the years i had missed through heroin addiction.

Meetings did very little for me at that time. I had no concept of the 'higher power' and was absolutely not ready to be rigourously honest with another person. Never mind myself. I enjoyed listening to shares that I identified with but that was it. I left treatment and picked up where i left off.

Fast forward 15 years and i'm a broken human being with nothing left and i decided that i was desperate enough to go back. This time it was a very different experience. I did what they said i should do and experienced some wonderful things. I'm not a religious person but i understand why people find faith in the 'spiritual experience' they have. I understand now that it was likely just intense relief and a deflation of the ego that brought about those amazing sensations but at that suggestible time you could have told me it was lucifer himself and i would have worshiped him. Fortunately i had pretty good and level headed people around me in the meetings i went to who told me to relish the freedom rather than try to attribute a source to it.

I'm 7 years on now and a bit jaded and probably a little bit more cynical but there is so much bad advice in some of the meetings that i feel a responsibility to be there to help pass on the good instructions i was given. If you're a few years on and you're attending meetings to see what you can get from them i feel that you've missed the point a little. I dont believe stopping going to meetings would cause me to relapse. I learned some great stuff in those places about maintenaince of the spirit and have a duty to drop by in case someone else needs to know those things too. I see it as more of a psychological program now. A disease? I'm not so sure. A compulsive disorder perhaps? It doesnt really matter i suppose. If you find your way into a meeting the likelihood is that you need help. If it comes in th shape of the 12 steps when nothing else has worked then grab hold of it until you can walk on your own two feet. If you do learn to walk on your own two feet then drop by every now and then to see if anyone wants what you have. If it doesnt happen for you or you dont fancy it just walk on by and try something else. Hope everyone is well and keeping safe. Take care ?

 

[Jabberwocky]

Very cool post. It is amazing how the way we relate to things can efffect our experience, and how over time our relationships to things change according to the present causes and conditions.

I guess what I mean to say is, it is so true that these kinds of meetings, frankly any kind of community, will only work for those who are ready for them - and that it is an especially amazing moment when the values a community represents and those of an individual outside of that community on their own journey sync up; it is a moment of true beauty.

Sorry, I am rambling. . . . Communities of inclusion and compassion are also a beautiful thing. That is why I have always struggled with 12 Step meetings. Too often I feel that the balance of confrontation (in this sense a desired quality) and compassion leaning too far towards the confrontational.

 

[Erikmen]

That is because many 12 Steppers are very small-minded, which is sad. That community has so much to offer, it is really a shame their culture is so confrontational and narrow minded as a whole.

I just go to share and meet people who are sober, it's a good place to make friends out of the old circle. I don't follow their 'doctrine' I have never been into these 12 steps, except for acceptance that we are what we are, and we won't be able to use our DOC without having to go through the consequences. Not a place to judge. But to express your opinions. Some great speeches have inspired me, but others just don't suit me at all. It's about sharing and that has always helped people regardless if it's AA/NA or even here. I admit seeing some religious fanatics there occasionally. Maybe I was lucky and found a good spot. As mentioned yesterday they tend to be different in other parts of the world.

 

[Jabberwocky]

That is pretty cool Erikmen.

 

[cj]

Is it common for the group to hold hands and say the lords prayer after the meeting? All the meetings in Birmingham Alabama do that and I also saw it at some meetings in south florida.

 

[Chriscom]

[MENTION=117959]cj[/MENTION] i have never heard of the lords prayer being said at a meeting. That said, i'm in Scotland and have no experience of the fellowships anywhere else. There is a generic prayer called the serenity prayer that is said but given that there are supposed to be no ties to any other agency i feel that linking it a particular religion would be very much against the traditions and pretty off putting to anyone who wasnt Christian. I think evangelical members are probably just about the biggest turn off already without them being a recruiting ground for religion. The mantra is that its a spiritual rather than a religious program and the higher power concept is supposed to be of your own understanding. Or of your own non understanding such as the case may be. When done with an open mind the 12 steps can be a very liberating experience. When done with a closed mind it seems to close the mind of the person further to all ideas but their own. Typical of the human condition i suppose. I think meetings are another thing that can be latched onto by the addictive mind. When i hear of people 3,4 or 5 years sober who are still attending meetings every day then it seems to me that they're living in the rooms rather than taking the freedom you find there out into the world. I wonder whats changed for those peoples families in terms of the time they spend together? They're still not there much. Maybe thats me being judgemental but i went there to find a way to be able to cope with the world again. not spend every night there.

 

[cj]

[MENTION=117959]cj[/MENTION] i have never heard of the lords prayer being said at a meeting. That said, i'm in Scotland and have no experience of the fellowships anywhere else. There is a generic prayer called the serenity prayer that is said but given that there are supposed to be no ties to any other agency i feel that linking it a particular religion would be very much against the traditions and pretty off putting to anyone who wasnt Christian. I think evangelical members are probably just about the biggest turn off already without them being a recruiting ground for religion. The mantra is that its a spiritual rather than a religious program and the higher power concept is supposed to be of your own understanding. Or of your own non understanding such as the case may be. When done with an open mind the 12 steps can be a very liberating experience. When done with a closed mind it seems to close the mind of the person further to all ideas but their own. Typical of the human condition i suppose. I think meetings are another thing that can be latched onto by the addictive mind. When i hear of people 3,4 or 5 years sober who are still attending meetings every day then it seems to me that they're living in the rooms rather than taking the freedom you find there out into the world. I wonder whats changed for those peoples families in terms of the time they spend together? They're still not there much. Maybe thats me being judgemental but i went there to find a way to be able to cope with the world again. not spend every night there.

I am not a Christian so it was extremely off putting. It also undermined there assurances that it was a spiritual not religious program. I also agree with you about people who turn the program into there new addiction. I met people who at 10 years sober where still attending 2 meetings a day while sponsoring 10+ people. That's a hug time commitment and I doubt they had time for much else if they held a full time job with it.

 

[Chriscom]

I am not a Christian so it was extremely off putting. It also undermined there assurances that it was a spiritual not religious program. I also agree with you about people who turn the program into there new addiction. I met people who at 10 years sober where still attending 2 meetings a day while sponsoring 10+ people. That's a hug time commitment and I doubt they had time for much else if they held a full time job with it.[/QUOT

After a few months of doing meetings and working the program with a good sponsor my life started to get busy again. I have joint custody of my two gorgeous little girls, a job i enjoy and a relationship with a really lovely and kind girl. I was and am super grateful to have all that in my life and i believe i'm duty bound to stick around the meetings and try to pass on what was given to me but the most i'll usually manage is 1 a week. I sometimes feel that 12 steppers limit their service to other addicts. Someone told me early on that recovery starts 'from the fireplace out' meaning that you need to take the principles out into the world starting with your family in the home.

I think every group of people and organisation has unhealthy but well intentioned people. Its important to me that there are people in the meetings who are passing on the correct info rather than religious zealotry.

What do you think of the disease concept @cj? I've never been convinced. Its a condition of some kind not an incurable illness. Not in my opinion anyway.

 

[cj]

I think addiction is a disease in the same way that depression is a disease. Both can be caused by external stimuli but can also have a genetic component. I disagree with some of the conclusions people draw about the disease but yeah I do think its a brain disease though I think calling it a brain injury might be more accurate. The basic way I look at my own addiction is that the sexual abuse I suffered caused me too like the way drugs made me feel. Then once I took enough drugs they injured my brain and caused addiction.

On the other hand calling addiction a disease that can only be cured with a spiritual awakening is insane. I actually find it insulting to be honest. If you had depression and someone told you the answer was finding a higher power you would start looking for help elsewhere. Why people don't do that with addiction has everything to do with the stigma surrounding drugs.

So yeah I do see addiction as a disease I guess.

 

[Mmp85]

I was about to pop in and say that I think it's great that addiction is being treated more as a disease than as a moral failing, just like mental illness.
I think it's a manageable disease as is depression but there's no one way to manage it.

 

[Burnt Offerings]

Real substance abuse/addiction is a disease...it's a disease of the mind. I think most people would agree that there is such a thing as "mental illness" and addiction results in patterns of behavior which can be just as self-destructive and irrational as other psychological maladies. But treating mental illness is a lot more complicated than treating, say, someone's high blood glucose numbers...and the picture is further muddied by the fact that many people use drugs, including highly addictive drugs, without becoming addicted. Most drug users, actually. And honestly I have a bit less sympathy for someone who does something terrible because of their drug addiction compared to, say, someone with paranoid schizophrenia who did something terrible during a psychotic episode. I think there is a higher degree of mental control one can exercise over substance abuse compared to other things like schizophrenia or even depression (without even mentioning things like Parkinson's disease...i.e. the kinds of things that pop into people's head when they hear "disease").

That was always something I felt was strange too, though, was the fact that NA/AA promoted the idea of addiction-as-disease while simultaneously rejecting (or at least being very skeptical of) the idea of a pharmacological solution to the problem, like methadone maintenance and such

 

[Chriscom]

I feel that addiction is close in thinking and behaviours to conditions such as OCD or anorexia/bulemia. The insane compulsion to keep doing something that everyone else can see is causing you great harm. Of course on some level you are aware of the harm yourself but its not enough to stop you. Pretty terrifying actually. I remember doing handstands against walls while someone injected my neck in a room full of people doing similarly insane things to try and get a vein. It never even occured to me how insane this was.

I think the aversion to methadone etc within the fellowships is that you're unable to experience the 'spiritual awakening' thats supposed to be the antidote to addiction while still under the influence of any opiate. Whether this is true or not i dont know but the program seems to work best when you are desperate. Methadone stops you from reaching the same kind of pain and desperation as cold turkey i guess. That said i hate to hear people with no experience of methadone WD's telling people they should quit. If you havent done it just keep quiet and leave the advice to people that have. There are a great many excellent and wise people in the fellowships. There are also a great many who very much enjoy the sound of their own voice.

 

[cj]

I
I think the aversion to methadone etc within the fellowships is that you're unable to experience the 'spiritual awakening' thats supposed to be the antidote to addiction while still under the influence of any opiate. Whether this is true or not i dont know but the program seems to work best when you are desperate. Methadone stops you from reaching the same kind of pain and desperation as cold turkey i guess. That said i hate to hear people with no experience of methadone WD's telling people they should quit. If you havent done it just keep quiet and leave the advice to people that have. There are a great many excellent and wise people in the fellowships. There are also a great many who very much enjoy the sound of their own voice.

The whole idea of a spiritual awakening is garbage. Bill W had his awakening under the influence of Belladona which is a powerful deleriant. But I do agree with you that the program seems to work best when people are desperate and in pain. Funnily enough that's also a prerequisite for someone becoming involved in a cult. Personally I stay away from the program but I have no problem with the people it works for. What I do have a problem with is the fact that many people believe it is the only way to recover from drug addiction. That attitude harms many many people whos first experience with trying to recover is being sent to a meeting.

 

[Chriscom]

I have to disagree @cj. A 'spiritual awakening' is just a profound change in thinking. I had experienced that within a few months of getting clean and engaging with the program. The cause for it is certainly up for debate but the experience itself not so much. I've never heard of Bill Wilson having been under the influence of Belladonna? Do you have a link? I'm going to a meeting tonight and would quite like to have that info for my own personal enjoyment when speaking with one of the zealots who can recite whole passages from memory and use subjective passages to confirm their own opinions. No it's definitely not the only way to recover. I work in addictions and another of my personal bugbears are colleagues who promote this to be the case or who almost take it as a personal slight when it either doesnt work for someone or they choose another route. Very unprofessional.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Is it common for the group to hold hands and say the lords prayer after the meeting? All the meetings in Birmingham Alabama do that and I also saw it at some meetings in south florida.

Yes, this is very common in AA and NA meetings. At least in Southern CA (e.g. Los Angeles)

 

[herbavore]

I have never heard of that here in my town (Santa Cruz). If anyone knows of any meetings like that I'd be interested to hear. The only way I could see that happening here is if religious people decided to get together and have their own meetings. I only went to al-anon meetings and heard about AA/NA from my son so I can't claim to know everything that happens but I can say in the meetings I attended they made a point of saying "a higher power of your own definition and understanding" which was fine with me. My "higher power" was/is my evolving compassionate self.

 

[cj]

I have to disagree @cj. A 'spiritual awakening' is just a profound change in thinking. I had experienced that within a few months of getting clean and engaging with the program. The cause for it is certainly up for debate but the experience itself not so much. I've never heard of Bill Wilson having been under the influence of Belladonna? Do you have a link? I'm going to a meeting tonight and would quite like to have that info for my own personal enjoyment when speaking with one of the zealots who can recite whole passages from memory and use subjective passages to confirm their own opinions. No it's definitely not the only way to recover. I work in addictions and another of my personal bugbears are colleagues who promote this to be the case or who almost take it as a personal slight when it either doesnt work for someone or they choose another route. Very unprofessional.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/20/health/20drunk.html?_r=0

This article briefly discuses it. I have read a more comprehensive account somewhere but don't have time to look at the moment. Bill W also experimented with LSD as a way to spiritual experiences in the 1960s.

 

[treezy z]

I'm getting out of detox tomorrow morning.

I'm doing 90 in 90 but maybe more than one a day, none a day or two a week after a month.

I will be doing something for my recovery every single day.

Two CBT groups a week, Church Sunday, work out every damn day, making music as a coping skill.

I've heard you're not supposed to fuck for a while or is that relationships. I don't want a relationship but I NEED to fuck.

 

[Chriscom]

Thanks cj. I read up on it yesterday. It also seems he was a morphine addict. Haha. That made me feel a whole lot better about my own pain/painkiller issues. I have a lot of gratitude for the fellowships and some of the people there. The initial support probably saved my life. I do understand and agree with a lot of the criticism though. There are elements of it that can be perceived as negative. Each to their own i suppose!

Hi @Treezy z

Well done on completing your detox. The 90 in 90 is a good suggestion but please dont see it as a failure if you dont manage it. Just go to as many as you honestly can without neglecting your responsibilities (if you have any) outwith the fellowships.

One of the things that grate me is the culture of people thinking they know exactly what other people should be doing. I had a guy early on telling me that meetings came before my kids and i should be at one every day. Of course this guy didnt have any kids so had no idea what he was talking about. Find a small amount of people that you trust and like the way they live and seek their council.

Recovery should be an enjoyable thing. Beware the fundamentalists my man!!

Who says you cant fuck?? As long as you're not harming anyone or putting yourself in a dangerous or vulnerable position you can do what you want. As long as you're rigorously honest about your motives.

Working out is a great way to blow off steam and keep your mind quiet. Early on i had someone tell me not to go to the gym for 6 months as my ego would cause me to relapse. Again, this guy was way overweight and couldnt walk the length of himself so OPINIONS again. I ignored him and trained 4 times a week and 7 years later still find it one of the most therapeutic activities.

Good luck on your journey friend. Recovery shouldnt be doom and gloom. If it was i would just go back and use again. Find out what you want to do and go fucking do it. Peace and hugs bro ?

 

[treezy z]

First meeting today a noon time in my area.

Really hit home. I need to stay in the hood (South side of my town) to relate, I've been to real straight laced meetings in the past and didn't fit in.

I'm Street/ hood whatever don't want to listen to squares.