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Lysergamides [LSD Subthread] Effect Description / "What is LSD like?"

I've never done LSD myself, but I cant see it being extremely different from mushrooms. They will be different, but they are both tryptamines.
LSD isn't really a tryptamine. While it has got both the tryptamine and the phenethylamine backbone in its structure, it isn't a tryptamine as such.
It's an ergoline ;)

I remember David E. Nichols saying that he used to believe that LSD was able to bind to the serotonin2A-receptors due to its similarities with the phenethylamines and tryptamines, but that we now know that LSD binds to the receptors by some other mechanism. I'll see if I can find the paper somewhere...

Edit: Found it - it was part of his speech at the LSD Symposium of 2006:
"A lot of people for many years thought that the phenethylamines were related to LSD because they bound in the receptor in this particular way [...] these things don't bind like LSD at all, they bind in a completely different way."

I hear acid is more stimulating and not as in your face as mushrooms tend to be.
That's quite true, IME :) I think that LSD facilitates clear-headed, deep contemplation very well, while my thought processes seem more absurd and twisted on mushrooms ;)
 
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I've always found shrooms to be SOOO serious. It seems whenever you intend to have fun, the shroom entity will put you in your place by hammering you with a deep seminar on what you should fix about your life--which never even seems to end up productive as the progression of your thoughts is so non-linear and confusing. It's as if the invisible "alien" that seems ever-present during a trip hijacks the linguistic process that your brain uses to interpret 'reality' and uses it to speak to you about how miniscule you are compared to itself. Don't ever try to 'take control' of your mind, because it loves to direct it for you so this always ends in disaster. The unforgiving mushroom entity hates being disrespected, and demands that you take large doses in silent darkness to earn its respect for any real learning to come about. Consistent with the character of it, its visuals also tend to have more spiritual and archetypal significance to them.

Acid, on the other hand, is a little more trivial. The main thing being is that there is really no LSD entity (makes sense as its created by a lab rather than the earth). You don't have that nagging presence that's always tugging at you and taking charge with organic psychedelics. Since there is no entity, YOU are the conductor of the content. Your imagination is set free, and you have much more control over where the trip takes you. Thoughts are fractalized, but the fractals are not broken so the thought train is linear. The visuals will be relatively more pronounced, they are not organic but are mathematical and digital. They are mostly "eye candy": they lack "communication" so are easier to have fun with.

In short, shrooms for a lecture from master-of-the-universe alien spirits, acid for an entertaining and "TA-DAAA" type mental circus.
 
^ I haven't had that issue with shrooms being heavy-handed in its "you need to fix xyz in your life". I did get that recently with molly but it was like I was my own therapist and talking to myself in a very empathetic way about getting my life on track. I am curious about 4-aco-dmt as that is apparently synthetic psilocin, so it is basically being able to accurately dose out shroom-like trips, which the control freak in me likes.

I've done shrooms, 2c-e, and salvia extract. It is time for me to get ahold of some LSD to try out, I think I may have found some of the real deal finally; too much "acid" in the past few years has been of the DOx varieties and I was kind of skittish about doing LSD back when I actually had access to it many years ago. But after a heavy duty insane-o 2c-e trip I think I can handle just about anything.
 
I've always found shrooms to be SOOO serious. It seems whenever you intend to have fun, the shroom entity will put you in your place by hammering you with a deep seminar on what you should fix about your life--which never even seems to end up productive as the progression of your thoughts is so non-linear and confusing. It's as if the invisible "alien" that seems ever-present during a trip hijacks the linguistic process that your brain uses to interpret 'reality' and uses it to speak to you about how miniscule you are compared to itself. Don't ever try to 'take control' of your mind, because it loves to direct it for you so this always ends in disaster. The unforgiving mushroom entity hates being disrespected, and demands that you take large doses in silent darkness to earn its respect for any real learning to come about. Consistent with the character of it, its visuals also tend to have more spiritual and archetypal significance to them.

Acid, on the other hand, is a little more trivial. The main thing being is that there is really no LSD entity (makes sense as its created by a lab rather than the earth). You don't have that nagging presence that's always tugging at you and taking charge with organic psychedelics. Since there is no entity, YOU are the conductor of the content. Your imagination is set free, and you have much more control over where the trip takes you. Thoughts are fractalized, but the fractals are not broken so the thought train is linear. The visuals will be relatively more pronounced, they are not organic but are mathematical and digital. They are mostly "eye candy": they lack "communication" so are easier to have fun with.

In short, shrooms for a lecture from master-of-the-universe alien spirits, acid for an entertaining and "TA-DAAA" type mental circus.
"Shrooms are created by the earth so they necessarily have an 'entity', but LSD is synthetic and synthetics necessarily can't have an 'entity', it just makes sense!!" = no. You don't hear many reports of entity contact on LSA/ergoline cocktail in MGS/HBWR either, even though it's naturally occurring.
 
I cannot relate to the "Shrooms are like an unforgiving alien entity that hates being disrespected"-thing. I'm not sure it even makes sense to me. ;)

I do agree that mushroom trips can be a bit sinister, but they can be very enjoyable (and spiritual) and introspective as well. LSD is great for introspection and clear-headed, creative thinking, IMO. I love thinking about chemistry and mathematical concepts while on LSD =D .

It's funny, though, on my 40+ trips I have never had a "bad trip". I've had a few challenging ones but they always turned out great in the end. I've never felt any presence of "entities" and all that either.
 
Whoever said "mushrooms feels more in your face" hasn't taken a high dose of LSD. It can really be in your face lol, it doesn't come in waves either like mushrooms. High doses of LSD can be quite "chaotic". I think people usually get off more on mushrooms cause they only take 1 or 2 hits of LSD. You need more to really get off with most LSD these days cause it's generally much weaker.

That's quite true, IME I think that LSD facilitates clear-headed, deep contemplation very well, while my thought processes seem more absurd and twisted on mushrooms

Clear headed? Lol, I find my thoughts are going crazy fast on LSD and sometimes it's hard to not drift off onto another subject. I definitely can't perform simple tasks while under the influence of a significant amount of LSD.
 
That just goes to show how incredibly subjective and individual the experience is :)
 
"Shrooms are created by the earth so they necessarily have an 'entity', but LSD is synthetic and synthetics necessarily can't have an 'entity', it just makes sense!!" = no. You don't hear many reports of entity contact on LSA/ergoline cocktail in MGS/HBWR either, even though it's naturally occurring.

This quote has been distorted. I didn't state that all natural psychs will produce entity contact. Neither did I say that synthetics necessarily can't produce entity contact. Maybe the "makes sense" thing was a misleading thing to say, as I'm not trying to make a scientific law out of it.

I was simply implying that I rarely/almost never read of entity contact in synthetic-trip reports, even in high doses. However, if the dose is substantial, reports of entities from natural psychs--in general--are quite common. If I were to form a logical statement out of this, it would be more correct to say: 'Most of the reports of entities come from natural psychs, but not all natural psychs present entities.'
 
Mind Trip

-Mushrooms: Directed outward, what's reality, how did the universe start, why is everything so beautiful?

-LSD: What is my brain doing? Can I crack it? Where am "I" in there?

Body Feeling

-Mushrooms: Relaxing, smooth, slow, thick. Sometimes overwhelming.

-LSD: Delicious, warm, electric, energetic. Sometimes abrasive.

Visuals

-Mushrooms: Dreamy, realistic, rivers in the woodgrain, hi-def vision, faces everywhere.

-LSD: Hyper, artificial, synthetic, kaleidoscopic, things appear and disappear, intricate.
 
arthunter888:
The DMT used in Rick Strassman's research was synthesized in a laboratory, but plenty of his patients felt the presence of entities. Don't you think that some compounds are simply more likely to produce this feeling, regardless of the source they come from?
 
arthunter888:
The DMT used in Rick Strassman's research was synthesized in a laboratory, but plenty of his patients felt the presence of entities. Don't you think that some compounds are simply more likely to produce this feeling, regardless of the source they come from?

A drug resulting from laboratory work does not necessarily make it 'synthetic'. 'Synthetic' and even 'Semi-synthetic' means that the product drug cannot be found in nature in any form, therefore can ONLY exist as a laboratory product.

DMT molecules are found in low concentrations in many plant varieties, but they are usually extracted from the plants via labs in order to allow DMT to be more easily used in a potent, concentrated form. The DMT containing plants CAN be used without extraction, but this entails some negative aesthetics that push psyconauts toward its vaporizable extracted form.

It is also true that DMT can be synthesized rather than extracted, meaning it can be created by reacting various chemicals rather than beginning with raw plant matter. If this is what Rick Strassman did, then he still did not create a new drug. He simply made an exact copy of the DMT molecular structure that is already found in nature, meaning it is still--inherently--"natural".
 
It is not a drug that is for just getting fuckkkkeedd uppp ddooodddzz! It is a drug for inspection, introspection, and healing.

This is my purpose for wanting it. I want to tap into my full potential and also fix depression / motivation levels for good.

I think Steve Jobs is a much better role model for LSD than Tim Leary. I'm not exactly an Apple fangirl (Blackberries are way better than iPhones IMO) but I would love to be able to look at the world the way Steve does, he is a definite visionary, and he has stated many times that his LSD use was an important factor in his personal development.

Now that I've finally found a couple of legit LSD sources I can't wait to try it out...so I'll probably be doing some later this month for the first time.

I've found molly to be incredibly introspective and therapeutic, it helps me feel like I'm worth it and deserve love and happiness.

I've found 2c-e to have incredible headspace that is also very introspective but in a very serious way, it pulls no punches and doesn't make you feel all warm and happy, it just throws your demons in your face and forces you to overcome them, but not in a scary way just in a "you have to face reality" way.

I'm hoping LSD is the final key to unlock my potential and finish healing from post-traumatic stress, depression, and self-esteem issues. I have been in a rut for the past couple years and if it can help me feel creative and get my groove back I'll be very happy.
 
I've always found shrooms to be SOOO serious. It seems whenever you intend to have fun, the shroom entity will put you in your place by hammering you with a deep seminar on what you should fix about your life

This almost exactly describes my last 2c-e trip, it wasn't "fun" exactly but it was rather therapeutic IMO and I thought the headspace was pretty awesome in spite of how heavy-handed it was. It wasn't scary/depressing, more like cold "tough love" trying to help me face what's really been bothering me so I can overcome it.
 
A drug resulting from laboratory work does not necessarily make it 'synthetic'. 'Synthetic' and even 'Semi-synthetic' means that the product drug cannot be found in nature in any form, therefore can ONLY exist as a laboratory product.
That is just factually wrong. The definition I could find is:
synthetic (adjective):
(chemistry) Produced by synthesis instead of being isolated from a natural source (but may be identical to a product so obtained).

By your definition, methamphetamine was a synthetic drug for years, until it was discovered in a species of acacia. Then it suddenly became a "natural" drug?
Either that, or it was a so-called "natural" drug all along.

I'll play along. What is it then, that makes "natural" compunds so inherently different?

Oh, and how can you label LSD a synthetic drug if that means that it
cannot be found in nature in any form, therefore can ONLY exist as a laboratory product
?
How do we know that LSD will not be discovered in nature at some point?
 
That is just factually wrong. The definition I could find is: "synthetic (adjective): (chemistry) Produced by synthesis instead of being isolated from a natural source (but may be identical to a product so obtained)."

Well, it's only partially wrong: I guess the underlined part suggests that DMT that was created without starting with the natural source would be technically considered 'synthetic DMT'. But the application of the word synthetic is not as clear-cut as the technical definition. For example, we CAN synthesize THC, but I've never heard a professional say that "THC is a synthetic drug." Same thing with psilocybin, it CAN be synthesized, but it also is regarded as a "natural drug." In theory ANY natural drug can be synthesized, but I'll bet if you ask a bunch of drug scientists whether or not they would call something a "synthetic" or a "natural" drug, the majority would base this answer ultimately on whether said drug is found in nature (natural), or it can only exist by human-creation (synthetic/semi-synthetic).

By your definition, methamphetamine was a synthetic drug for years, until it was discovered in a species of acacia. Then it suddenly became a "natural" drug?
Either that, or it was a so-called "natural" drug all along.

Wow, that's interesting, first time I learned this. It's true that meth was considered synthetic for a while. But since discovered in acacia, then it was/is indeed a "natural drug" all along. This is cited in the wikipedia page for methamphetamine, and is consistent with the above^ application of synthetic vs. natural drugs. The fact that it was considered a synthetic drug for a time was just due to our own ignorance to its natural origin. This is understandable, as science is never perfect, it is constantly changing and being revised/corrected.

I'll play along. What is it then, that makes "natural" compunds so inherently different?

Again, like I said before, entity contact is much more commonly reported with natural psychs than synthetic ones. I know this to be the case: I used to read trip reports by the dozens, each day that I got into the TRs, I would devote that day to one specific drug, and read as many different erowid reports as I could until bored. The next time would be devoted to a different drug. This way I could easily see common themes/patterns within a drug, and compare it to the commonalities of other drugs to make generalizations.

Another difference is that most of the drugs that are consider to be "hard to hurt yourself with" are natural ones (THC, psilocybin, DMT, etc.). This is not to say that there aren't dangerous natural compounds, just that in general a higher percentage of incidences of brain damage or death from recreational drug use is attributed to human-made drugs (e.g. PCP, MDMA, Fentanyl etc.) than natural ones.


Oh, and how can you label LSD a synthetic drug if that means that it ?
How do we know that LSD will not be discovered in nature at some point?

We can't really predict this until it is actually found in nature. Until then, it will be considered human-made. Not certain, but I think it could actually be semi-synthetic, as it may be a synthetically-altered form of a natural substance found in ergot fungi. LSD is an exception to the general rule that synthetics are more dangerous, because it is believed the lethal dose (if there is one) is extremely high compared to the active dose. But I am doubtful that it exists in nature because it is VERY difficult to synthesize LSD (the reason its world-supply is scarce). Don't hold me to this, but this may be an assertion that the structure is not stable enough to exist in nature.

lol. God I just wasted so much time on the internet. But it was worth it. You remind me of myself in that you notice subtle inconsistencies in logic and challenge them.
 
arthunter888; I actually believe that I agree with almost everything you just wrote :) .

As for LSD, yes, the synthesis is somewhat complicated, but it can still be performed by any trained chemist.
Now, while LSD has a somewhat fragile structure, I don't think that it is too unstable to exist in nature, but it would degrade fairly quickly, ofcourse. Many fragile compounds exist in nature, as some organisms produce them continuously (psilocin is an example of this).

kind regards,
Culpepers

Edit;
I just reread your post, and I'm still not really "down" with the concept that compounds which originate from nature are inherently different. I mean, do you think that they have a "soul" or some such, or do you just think that nature somehow knows how to create special compounds that have "entities" in them? (not that either makes sense to me, but I'm just trying to comprehend what you're saying).

I mean, it makes a lot of sense that people get different effects from "natural" drugs, because they are aware that these drugs originate from nature and have been used for millenia by tribesmen and shamans. But that's all due to the immense power of the psyche, if you ask me.

Another edit;
I thought you should see this, which I remember reading some years back:
The Wöhler synthesis is of great historical significance because for the first time an organic compound was produced from inorganic reactants. This finding went against the mainstream theory of that time called vitalism which stated that organic matter possessed a special force or vital force inherent to all things living. For this reason a sharp boundary existed between organic and inorganic compounds. Urea was discovered in 1799 and could until then only be obtained from biological sources such as urine. Wöhler reported to his mentor Berzelius

"I cannot, so to say, hold my chemical water and must tell you that I can make urea without thereby needing to have kidneys, or anyhow, an animal, be it human or dog".
 
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arthunter888; I actually believe that I agree with almost everything you just wrote :) .

As for LSD, yes, the synthesis is somewhat complicated, but it can still be performed by any trained chemist.
Now, while LSD has a somewhat fragile structure, I don't think that it is too unstable to exist in nature, but it would degrade fairly quickly, ofcourse. Many fragile compounds exist in nature, as some organisms produce them continuously (psilocin is an example of this).

I'm not too familiar with the degredation facts about LSD or psilocybin to comment here with certainty. Keep in mind though, that the unstable psilocin in shrooms is coupled by psilocybin which is more stable, and also more abundant ("The concentrations of psilocin and psilocybin, determined by high-performance liquid chromatography, were determined to be in the range of 0.14–0.42% / 0.37–1.30% (dry weight) in the whole mushroom" --wiki on P.Cubensis), which would be greater assurance of psycho-activity if environmental conditions are harsh.

I find it interesting that psilocin comes merely from replacing the PO4 at the 4th position with an OH group, which seems to be a simple step. In the context of <--this, I think it would be interesting to ask--how many / how complex are-- the chemical changes that distinguish LSD from its natural precursor. I guess this would tell us more on the topic of "How likely is it that LSD can be formed in the plant containing its precursor, under given environmental conditions?" This would be over my head, but if I had to guess I would say that the chemical changes are too complex to happen naturally.


kind regards,
Culpepers

Edit;
I just reread your post, and I'm still not really "down" with the concept that compounds which originate from nature are inherently different. I mean, do you think that they have a "soul" or some such, or do you just think that nature somehow knows how to create special compounds that have "entities" in them? (not that either makes sense to me, but I'm just trying to comprehend what you're saying).

As far as this topic goes, keep in mind the opinions I hold here are held much more loosely than on the other topics we covered. This is because it would be impossible to prove, as it exceeds the boundaries of logic and of measurable data. With that said, here is my opinion:

I have a gut-feeling that nature does somehow know how to create special compounds that present entities to the human experimenter. It's the implications of this opinion that give me the most trouble. I can only brainstorm with this: maybe nature is more conscious than we think, that the plants containing these compounds are trying to communicate with us. If the plants themselves are not communicating with us, maybe some other consciousness designed these plants/compounds and/or use them as a medium to communicate. Maybe the entities are just self-projected fragments of our own consciousness, and we are communicating with ourselves or the collectivity of humanity. These are just some ideas related to the very interesting stuff Terence Mckenna had to say about natural psychs and entities.

I find it interesting that it is commonly-reported for natural psychs to produce visions that include Aztec-like and/or hieroglyphic-like symbols. It is know that these ancient societies experimented with entheogens. Maybe the psychs were the medium through which a "universal language" was passed on to them from its originators, and is now trying to be passed on to us. Whatever it may be, my gut tells me that some type of information exchange is happening in the natural psychedelic experience.

Even in my own experiences, the synthetic trips had a certain "synthetic" feeling to them, and the hallucinations were strong but seemed to lack the "otherly" communicative vibe I mention above.



I mean, it makes a lot of sense that people get different effects from "natural" drugs, because they are aware that these drugs originate from nature and have been used for millenia by tribesmen and shamans. But that's all due to the immense power of the psyche, if you ask me.

Don't think I can agree with a 'placebo effect' explanation here. Some of the studies involving humans and psychedelics were blind-studies (volunteer did not know what the drug was) and some even double-blind (neither volunteer nor the supervising doctor knew). These blind studies still consistently yielded the entity presences with the classic natural psychs that recreational, knowing-users tend to have.

Another edit;
I thought you should see this, which I remember reading some years back...

That's interesting. But how is it that the vital force thing is being challenged with someone being able to synthesize a natural compound such as urine? For example, synthetic DMT has the same subjective experience as extracted DMT. This would mean that the chemical 'blueprint' is what should be examined for vital force, not how a particular batch of a given chemical was created. Like I said, in theory ANY natural substance can be replicated with synthesis, so this doesn't really prove anything.

I know all this stuff sounds like 'voodoo-brained' theory, but don't forget science has been limited in explaining several phenomena, such as acupuncture, reiki healing, the ability of buddhist monks to maintain homeostasis in frigid conditions via meditation, etc. I have faith in science only to an extent, the rest is left to a variable combination of logic and my "gut-feelings" on such matters. Great discussion here man, hope to hear back.
 
Visuals
-Mushrooms: hi-def vision

are you serious? i'd rather attribute this to lsd. i guess it's different for everyone...

with acid it seems like the "resolution" of my vision goes up while the "frame rate" stays the same, while with shrooms and dmt it's the other way round.
 
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