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Tryptamines Psilomethoxin Church

Didgital said:
I believe it's in capsules
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Well, I know you can't source and I'm not actually looking for you to. I was just curious. You have to become a member and go to a service or what? I went to their website and didn't see any mention.
 
From what I remember after visiting that site and signing up, they were selling capsules weighing 280mg (?) of "mushrooms" or "sacrament"... for ridiculous prices. I think I actually laughed at the prices. This is AFTER the membership fee which was like $100 per year... lol. The whole thing screamed of a scam to me.
 
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Snafu in the Void said:
From what I remember after visiting that site and signing up, they were selling capsules weighing 280mg (?) of "mushrooms" or "sacrament"... for ridiculous prices. I think I actually laughed at the prices. This is AFTER the membership fee which was like $100 per year... lol. The whole thing screamed of a scam to me.
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Gotcha. So, you join, go to a service, and they sell you their "sacrament". Thanks.
Not an "open table" for communion, I would have to say.
 
Snafu in the Void said:
From what I remember after visiting that site and signing up, they were selling capsules weighing 280mg (?) of "sacrament"... for ridiculous prices. I think I actually laughed. This is AFTER the membership fee which was like $100 per year... lol
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At no time since December when I joined has sacrament come in capsule or pill form. Loose coarse powder of fruiting bodies, and the same folded into chocolate and gummies. Bought by the ounce, and microdosed as suggested, that's well under $1/dose for me ... definitely ridiculous prices lol. After the USONA paper came out, church tightened membership screening, slowing growth, pending analytics.

Services are ongoing several times a week, Zoom, and entirely voluntary. I like the breathwork (Fridays). There are recovery focused meetings, veterans, open sharing, various workshops, regular Sunday services with integration (every other week), Science Saturdays, etc.
 
Save me searching the thread. Link me the USONA paper.

I actually wouldn't mind checking out a church which used psychedelics, but a cash cow up front will make me take a pass. At least in a regular church they just pester you for money.


There's this. Am I late to the game with it?

https://chemrxiv.org/engage/api-gateway/chemrxiv/assets/orp/resource/item/64358de9736114c96352edf9/original/fungi-fiction-analytical-investigation-into-the-church-of-psilomethoxin-s-alleged-novel-compound-using-uplc-hrms.pdf
 
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Latherdome said:
At no time since December when I joined has sacrament come in capsule or pill form. Loose coarse powder of fruiting bodies, and the same folded into chocolate and gummies. Bought by the ounce, and microdosed as suggested, that's well under $1/dose for me ... definitely ridiculous prices lol. After the USONA paper came out, church tightened membership screening, slowing growth, pending analytics.

Services are ongoing several times a week, Zoom, and entirely voluntary. I like the breathwork (Fridays). There are recovery focused meetings, veterans, open sharing, various workshops, regular Sunday services with integration (every other week), Science Saturdays, etc.
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You sound like a salesman, and you're describing a cult. Sorry if I'm being too blunt.

Nobody should ever pay a membership fee for psychedelic enlightenment.
 
Snafu in the Void said:
You sound like a salesman, and you're describing a cult. Sorry if I'm being too blunt.

Nobody should ever pay a membership fee for psychedelic enlightenment.
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Snafu, Spiritual congregations often have memberships and need to raise funds. The issue here that this is mainly a mail order/online "church". There isn't much there there!
 
brokedownpalace10 said:
Save me searching the thread. Link me the USONA paper.

I actually wouldn't mind checking out a church which used psychedelics, but a cash cow up front will make me take a pass. At least in a regular church they just pester you for money.

There's this. Am I late to the game with it?
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I had not seen that paper, thanks for sharing. That's really all I need to cement my opinion on this matter. They also mentioned the theoretical 5-meo-psilocybin which I liked. The idea that solely feeding a fungi a certain substrate is going to turn off its enzymatic machinery so it doesnt produce any psilocybin sounds absurd to me.
 
Playing catch up here. Trying to avoid reading the whole thread. What is the USONA paper? I've read people talking about it. I'd like to read it.
 
ayalight said:
Snafu, Spiritual congregations often have memberships and need to raise funds.
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Lmao get the fuck out of here dude. Thanks for a good laugh.

ayalight said:
The issue here that this is mainly a mail order/online "church".
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Nah. I give money to some person named Frank on the street. I think all churches should be unilaterally burned to the ground. Except the architecturally/historically significant ones, those are pretty cool.
 
ayalight said:
Latherdome,
I trust your experience and others who say that it seems different from psilocybin. And I read about and spoken to others who say it seems like psilocybin. As you indicated there seems to be inconsistency.
I have to say at the moment I don't particularly trust the chemist who is working with them given his transparently absurd position about needing a reference sample to determine if there is psilomethoxin in their product.

You also in earlier posts echoed their PR about the Usona paper. It is a preprint which is being peer reviewed. It is common to publish preprints. And there is no conflict of interest with the Usona researchers.

The problem here has always been CoP. As you seem to agree, they never should have publicly promoted themselves when they couldn't establish what exactly it is they are selling people.

And they are selling it. Though I believe they are sincere in a number of ways they are not actually a church. A church is a congregation not basically a mail order operation. They risk investigation and arrest since they are using interstate mail and even if they could produce psilomethoxin it too would almost certainly be illegal under the analog drug act.

That said I think people should, more or less, be able to use these medicines as they wish with whom they wish.
Yet, this whole endeavor lacks clarity and integrity in my view.
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I have never heard nor read the church chemist claim impossibility of ID without a reference sample, for reasons you say. Can you quote? I have heard other non-chemist church figures say that; I think they've believed it as a practical matter. I corresponded with a non-church-affliated chemist with considerable psychedelics experience who told me that while a reference sample isn't strictly required, complete analysis of complex biological material without such references is a daunting task requiring access to the most sophisticated equipment and expertise, such as NMR. I'm also not a chemist, so am prone to errors in translation, credulity, etc.

Chemist is in somewhat of a hot seat simultaneously to do good science that will hold up to peer review, and hopefully have results align with church interests, right?

It is obviously possible without reference sample, but not without access to analytical resources the church hasn't had access to, and they've been cagey about partnering with, e.g., pharmaceutical-allied entities including university chemistry departments that do have such resources. Because paranoid about IP disputes that might challenge their religious-freedom -based right to distribute, not to mention the pesky Schedule 1 status of both psilocybes and 5-MeO-DMT. Is it news that the WoD makes science hard for all but the most monied parties on the FDA train with their federal DEA allies?

As for me "echoing PR", I have never disputed right to publish a preprint, nor to challenge church claims. The study lacked basic chain of custody controls to assure integrity of the "anonymously donated" sample. More egregiously, USONA is under common leadership with Promega, a drug developer with extensive investments in bio-enzymatic synthesis of "non-hallucinogenic psychedelics with minimal tolerance" to be developed into lucrative prescription drugs. Like the church claims to have succeeded in doing, except church is bypassing whole FDA process to basically give it away for less than a daily coffee. USONA is conducting clinical trials of both psilocybin and 5-MeO-DMT. Hello? https://www.usonainstitute.org/drug-development . Does this invalidate the work they did with the anonymously donated sample? No. Does it represent a potential conflict of interest? Of course. Have to assure stakeholders that their money isn’t about to vanish because some wildcat toad/shroom church has outpaced them.

As for what's a church, the lawyers in leadership do take what seems to me a much more bold stance than, e.g., previous psychedelic churches like Santo Daime, in that they reject need to petition DEA for an exemption, as unnecessary prostration to government, asking permission for a constitutionally guaranteed RIGHT, absolute. I'm sympathetic to the gist, but no lawyer, unable to analyze their chances in the court case they seem almost spoiling for.
 
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brokedownpalace10 said:
Playing catch up here. Trying to avoid reading the whole thread. What is the USONA paper? I've read people talking about it. I'd like to read it.
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Here is the paper.

And here is a series of articles with an depth analysis of the situation
www.psymposia.com

Psymposia

www.psymposia.com www.psymposia.com
 
And I’m completely cemented in my idea that latherdome is a shill. You try to be impartial, you’re not doing a very good job. Next time maybe try a bit harder to not look like the churches spokesman.

People that profit heavily off others desire to heal sickens me to my core. You folks are shitting all over the sacrament you supposedly hold dear.

-GC
 
Latherdome said:
I have never heard nor read the church chemist claim impossibility of ID without a reference sample, for reasons you say. Can you quote? I have heard other non-chemist church figures say that; I think they've believed it as a practical matter. I corresponded with a non-church-affliated chemist with considerable psychedelics experience who told me that while a reference sample isn't strictly required, complete analysis of complex biological material without such references is a daunting task requiring access to the most sophisticated equipment and expertise, such as NMR. I'm also not a chemist, so am prone to errors in translation, credulity, etc.

Chemist is in somewhat of a hot seat simultaneously to do good science that will hold up to peer review, and hopefully have results align with his employers' interests, right?

It is obviously possible without reference sample, but not without access to analytical resources the church hasn't had access to, and they've been cagey about partnering with, e.g., pharmaceutical-allied entities including university chemistry departments that do have such resources. Because paranoid about IP disputes that might challenge their religious-freedom -based right to distribute, not to mention the pesky Schedule 1 status of both psilocybes and 5-MeO-DMT. Is it news that the WoD makes science hard for all but the most monied parties on the FDA train with their federal DEA allies?

As for me "echoing PR", I have never disputed right to publish a preprint, nor to challenge church claims. The study lacked basic chain of custody controls to assure integrity of the "anonymously donated" sample. More egregiously, USONA is under common leadership with Promega, a drug developer with extensive investments in bio-enzymatic synthesis of "non-hallucinogenic psychedelics with minimal tolerance" to be developed into lucrative prescription drugs. Like the church claims to have succeeded in doing, except church is bypassing whole FDA process to basically give it away for less than a daily coffee. USONA is conducting clinical trials of both psilocybin and 5-MeO-DMT. Hello? https://www.usonainstitute.org/drug-development . Does this invalidate the work they did with the anonymously donated sample? No. Does it represent a potential conflict of interest? Of course. Have to assure stakeholders that their money isn’t about to vanish because some wildcat toad/shroom church has outpaced them.

As for what's a church, the lawyers in leadership do take what seems to me a much more bold stance than, e.g., previous psychedelic churches like Santo Daime, in that they reject need to petition DEA for an exemption, as unnecessary prostration to government, asking permission for a constitutionally guaranteed RIGHT, absolute. I'm sympathetic to the gist, but no lawyer, unable to analyze their chances in the court case they seem almost spoiling for.
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"USONA is conducting clinical trials of both psilocybin and 5-MeO-DMT. Hello? https://www.usonainstitute.org/drug-development . Does this invalidate the work they did with the anonymously donated sample? No. Does it represent a potential conflict of interest? Of course. Have to assure stakeholders that their money isn’t about to vanish because some wildcat toad/shroom church has outpaced them."

Latherdome, this is absurd. There is a lot of work being done by many groups with psilocybin and 5MEO research is also ramping up. Of course, many other psychedelics are being studied. Neither Usona nor Promega is researching psilomethoxin. USONA is a non profit institution so it doesn't have shareholders. And there are lots of spiritual congregations and those who claim to be who are using sacred medicines besides CoP. You again seem to be echoing the claims of CoP PR (though I know you have also offered some criticism of them).

FYI given how readily CoP was sending their product to people it was very easy for these researchers to obtain it. Hamilton Morris also didn't find it in a sample CoP gave him. And before the Usona paper was published their report others were published in online groups that also didn't find psilomethoxin.

I suggest you read this series which summarizes the situation far better than I have or have the time to:
www.psymposia.com

Psymposia

www.psymposia.com www.psymposia.com
 
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G_Chem said:
And I’m completely cemented in my idea that latherdome is a shill. You try to be impartial, you’re not doing a very good job. Next time maybe try a bit harder to not look like the churches spokesman.

People that profit heavily off others desire to heal sickens me to my core. You folks are shitting all over the sacrament you supposedly hold dear.

-GC
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And if I’m cemented to the idea you’re a reptile? What then? You haven’t made much of an effort to check out my posts on the subject if you think I’m a shill. I’ve been critical of the church both within church channels and publicly. I have never sought to nor actually profited in any way from my involvement, no referrals etc. I know nothing about the church’s finances, but have cause to suspect that if anybody is profiting heavily, it’s covert.
 
Ayalight, I read all of those articles the day they were published. I think now, and have long said I think sacrament may well not contain any psilomethoxin. I knew this in December before I joined, because they said they’d never proven it with labs in their blog post. I have never held nor endorsed the idea that the identity of chemical compounds is rightly a matter of faith. That’s facepalm talk for me.

I think the church followed Shulgin’s suggestion, stumbled onto something interesting, and leapt to the conclusion that they’d made the psilomethoxin that Shulgin gave only even odds of resulting. Then, with a mix of sincere delusion, lots of drugs, lawyerly chutzpah, and the possibly relaxed scruples required to produce and distribute a psychoactive substance having 2 scheduled precursors, across international borders, with zero fucks given to DEA’s request that such groups file for a religious exemption, they launched a church with a website and an ecommerce platform.

Then they got spanked by people with actual hard chemistry chops, and have retracted their public profile, even changed their name pending a scientific reply to the USONA paper validating that the Gartz/Shulgin method, with details as developed by church, results in a novel substance or substances of interest. Back to the drawing board doesn’t mean descent into deeper more fraudulent fraud, but maybe more humility.

I’ll want more after I run out. I’d really like it not to be as inconsistent or even controversial as it’s been in church hands.
 
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Also a personal grievance I suppose, but I saw the church founder posted on social media recently with a picture of him and a big net with caption "friend of toads"

Wtf
 
Latherdome said:
Ayalight, I read all of those articles the day they were published. I think now, and have long said I think sacrament may well not contain any psilomethoxin. I knew this in December before I joined, because they said they’d never proven it with labs in their blog post. I have never held nor endorsed the idea that the identity of chemical compounds is rightly a matter of faith. That’s facepalm talk for me.

I think the church followed Shulgin’s suggestion, stumbled onto something interesting, and leapt to the conclusion that they’d made the psilomethoxin that Shulgin gave only even odds of resulting. Then, with a mix of sincere delusion, lots of drugs, lawyerly chutzpah, and the possibly relaxed scruples required to produce and distribute a psychoactive substance having 2 scheduled precursors, across international borders, with zero fucks given to DEA’s request that such groups file for a religious exemption, they launched a church with a website and an ecommerce platform.

Then they got spanked by people with actual hard chemistry chops, and have retracted their public profile, even changed their name pending a scientific reply to the USONA paper validating that the Gartz/Shulgin method, with details as developed by church, results in a novel substance or substances of interest. Back to the drawing board doesn’t mean descent into deeper more fraudulent fraud, but maybe more humility.

I’ll want more after I run out. I’d really like it not to be as inconsistent or even controversial as it’s been in church hands.
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Latherdome,
What you wrote below is very well said and we are more or less aligned. Certainly you are not a "shill" as some have suggested. BTW, As I think you know, on their website they still maintain that they are producing and sending psilomethoxin to their members even though they have changed their name.

"I think the church followed Shulgin’s suggestion, stumbled onto something interesting, and leapt to the conclusion that they’d made the psilomethoxin that Shulgin gave only even odds of resulting. Then, with a mix of sincere delusion, lots of drugs, lawyerly chutzpah, and the possibly relaxed scruples required to produce and distribute a psychoactive substance having 2 scheduled precursors, across international borders, with zero fucks given to DEA’s request that such groups file for a religious exemption, they launched a church with a website and an ecommerce platform.

Then they got spanked by people with actual hard chemistry chops, and have retracted their public profile, even changed their name pending a scientific reply to the USONA paper validating that the Gartz/Shulgin method, with details as developed by church, results in a novel substance or substances of interest. Back to the drawing board doesn’t mean descent into deeper more fraudulent fraud, but maybe more humility."
 
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