tackling the big issues....Ethical consumption - do you give a damn?

[onetwothreefour]

^^^ the thing is, with comedians, whilst they utilise situations in which the comedic answer is usually the most obvious, it's often flawed.

if ali g gave me a chicken, and said 'eat it, otherwise i'll kill another chicken', i'd do something to stop him killing the chicken. if i couldn't prevent him from killing it, i'd do my best to inform others that it was bad.

all that said, killing a chicken ain't anywhere near as bad as selling human children into slave labour. so whilst i might have qualms in stopping a non-vegan (hell, i'm still not one...i'm trying) from eating meat, i would never have a problem in preventing people from taking advantage of people for their own monetary gain.

your argument seems good on the surface preacha, but it's got nothin' underneath. sorta like kfc's chicken :D

 

[preacha]

^^ the question only posed two options in which the person being asked the question is powerless other than choosing to pursue one of those two choices.

of course killing a chicken isn't as bad as selling human children into child labour, but if i was to apply your line of thinking in life, i'd have to write to Oxford Dictionary to erase the word 'metaphor', as it will have been rendered useless.

your argument may seem good 1234, but all you are in the end is what kfc's chicken resides in. a greasy box.

pussy :D

 

[onetwothreefour]

^^^ not so much. plenty of metaphors exist on similar planes of relevance (say, my description of the spread of von dutch through melbourne as an event as quick as the spread of 'priests at a kindergarten'. apt, i thought ).

so anyway, i disagree: i understand that said person - ali g - gave only two options, but that doesn't me there's really only two options; if i told you you have the choice between dying or me killing your girlfriend, would there only be two options?

see

chicken! :D (i liked that no fear sticker.)

 

[Pseudo G]

i guess it applies in this case also. sure, working in substandard conditions isn't a desirable outcome, but when compared to the alternative their future suddenly looks a lot brighter, sadly enough.

My point exactly. It's not the best outcome by far considering the people involved. I think we can all agree on that. But when compared to their other options, it looks pretty decent.

I don't like getting ripped off, period. Personally, when the company is paying so little to have the shoes made, and selling me them at SUCH an inflated price, I think i'm getting ripped off.

What is a fair price? Not just for shoes but for anything for that matter? A fair price is what I consider a price that people are willing to pay. The companies make it their business to sell their wares at a 'fair price' otherwise people simply wouldn't buy them.

As for being an ethical consumer, assume I stoped buying nikes. Fuck it, lets assume the world stopped buying nikes. Then what would happen to the nike sweat shops and the people that work there and their families? I know the arugment sounds a little crazy, but hey, the world is a crazy place. Now lets not all rush out and buy nikes to support these poverty stricken families, but if no one bought them, they wouldn't have a job and would be forced to work in quite possibly more dangerous and hazardous environments for less pay.

It's not a great situation any which way you look at it, granted. But as a 'consumer' I'm happy to pay for an over priced shoe if it means some person in a third world country who made it gets paid for making it and can afford a meal that night.

If you were born into poverty, abject poverty, what would you do?

Pray that a MacDonald, Nike or any other large faceless multinational corporation blah blah blah opened up a store/factory/warehouse near me so that I could get a job there, earn a wage and provide for myself and my family. As I would much prefer than than many of the alternatives for such people.

Empathy is being able understand and identify with the feelings and emotions of another. Now I don't think these people working in the sweat shops would be happy to lose their jobs. I reckon losing their jobs would make them pretty un-fucking happy. So for that sole reason, I don't think nike or who ever building sweat shops in such areas is such a bad thing for the people that stand to benefit in any small way.

 

[preacha]

1234, the point i'm (unsuccessfully) trying to make is that for these people, there is no alternative.

work or die.

i understand your point that life is not as black and white as my point suggests, but the more impoverished we become, the more limited our choices become.

if you were starving and suffering from dehydration, would you take a job stitching wallets to stem this or would you prefer to keep your chin up and and watch your body rapidly deteriorate?

as i said, the situation isn't black and white as my point may have suggested, but if you take away a person's basic freedoms, the shades of grey become increasingly sparse.

 

[up all night]

Originally posted by Chik.
For making that comment, you are just as fucked up as you claim carbine to be.

You are disgusting.

Teehee you make me giggle. I'm surprised you didn't post a photo of your angry face along with that.

I agree with Preacha in that as things stand these people don't have a choice - it's work for shit wages or don't work at all. However that's the exact problem and the thing that needs to be changed. We shouldn't be grateful these workers are getting exploited FFS. As a society we need to recognise the need for a third solution [as 1234 was saying] and then work towards making it a possiblity. I have absolutely no idea how to remedy the situation - it feels like the only thing we can really do is boycott certain brands but for that to work effectively people need to be informed and compassionate. What the world needs is a global body to step in and create minimum wage/ working conditions legislation that is compulsary for all countries.

As if that's ever going to happen though.

 

[nickthecheese]

As if that's ever going to happen though.

And it is that train of thought that keeps us where we are today 8(

Self-defeating without even talking about trying to make a change.

 

[muzby]

wow... when i noticed this post, saw it was less than 24 hours old, and the poster was now an ex-bluelighter, plus the fact there were 2 more pages after it, i knew it was going to be a big show.. (it was kinda like the boat scene in saving private ryan..) so i got myself some popcorn (grown in a community garden, with the owners paid over market rate) and sat down and watched..

good posting peoples..

some great opinions & discussions..

unfortunately, that is all i have to add at this moment...

 

[nickthecheese]

^ Where is the muzby(tm) response? You haven't added anything of value to this thread! I was expecting you, a marketer, to be able to shed some light on the topic for us?! Or do you not really care?

What about from a company perspective?

Please, my well meaning but over-zealous lefty friends, Do not make value judgements on other's lifestyles. I was not looking at you lefties to get so angry about this; I'm amazed too, but we must remember [comrades]* that these people are products of mainstream culture. They do not question, have no sense of global or social responsibility and consume mindlessly. They will make index fossils of us all (thanks again lostpunk).

What I really want to facilitate here is rational discourse about the topic of ethical consumption in a world of globalisation. Lets take another spin on it; outsourcing.

Has anyone lost their call-center job at Telstra, or any other company, cause they can farm their tech-support out to india, who can provide the same service at a cheaper rate? How happy did you feel with all those "downsizing" and "cost cutting measures" then?

Originally posted by Pseudo G
As for being an ethical consumer, assume I stoped buying nikes. Fuck it, lets assume the world stopped buying nikes. Then what would happen to the nike sweat shops and the people that work there and their families? I know the arugment sounds a little crazy, but hey, the world is a crazy place. Now lets not all rush out and buy nikes to support these poverty stricken families, but if no one bought them, they wouldn't have a job and would be forced to work in quite possibly more dangerous and hazardous environments for less pay.

Nike would be forced to either: 1) pay the workers a more decent rate, or 2) crash and burn. While 2 isn't really what we want to achieve, it's more than likely the outcome. But not only that, nike would lose PROFIT. Now companies who are in the business of making money will sit up straight, if they know that the people of the world are going to stop buying their shit, cause that means no more profit. What about the BILLIONS that nike spends on advertising and marketing? What about the children sold to these factories to make these crappy "sports" goods? I'm sure they could boost the pay-rate of all of their sweat shop workers by at least a dollar a day and still make MILLIONS worth of profit? Why the hell not? oh wait, shareholders...profit margins...first world greed at the expense of others...

You make the argument that it's a sweatshop or nothing. I dont dispute that working is a better alternative than nothing at all. I make the argument that the sweatshop should pay you the amount your worth, not a reduced wage cause your from india...

Does the concept of GREED even exist any more?

*sar-chasm

 

[muzby]

^ Where is the muzby(tm) response? You haven't added anything of value to this thread! I was expecting you, a marketer, to be able to shed some light on the topic for us?! Or do you not really care?

What about from a company perspective?

oh i'll put something up from a company perspective shortly...

although, i wont have all that much to add, as our company produces everything in australia, and pays above ward wage to do so..

 

[nickthecheese]

^ Kudos to your company - others should learn from it. I like your 'Sucks' without metal though, heh.

 

[up all night]

And it is that train of thought that keeps us where we are today 8(

Self-defeating without even talking about trying to make a change.

Um if you read my previous posts I have been talking about making changes and needing to get other people involved in the process.

I just find it very hard to believe that there will be intervention by a global body any time in the near future. I didn't say anything about not bothering to try.

I think it's easy for people in this thread to sound like they're lecturing the ones who don't care and I think that can be part of the problem. Before I really started thinking about these issues I kinda laughed at the 'hippies' and their passionate protests. Their way of getting their message across was often to scream the loudest and try to drum the message into people's heads. It was almost like they were trying to guilt people into caring and I resented that. I think there needs to be some more subtle propaganda without photos that pull at the heart strings or dramatic statements. Just an idea anyway.

 

[lostpunk5545]

"First they taught us to depend on their nation states to mend
Our tired minds, our broken bones, our bleeding limbs
Now they've sold off all the splints, and contracted out the tourniquets
and if we jump through hoops then we might just survive
Is this what we deserve?
To scrub the place floors?
To fight amongst ourselves?
As we scramble for the crumbs they spit out,
frothing at the mouth about the scapegoats that they've chosen for us
With every racist pointed finger, I hear the goose-steps getting closer
They no longer represent us so is it not our obligation
to conront this tyranny?"

- Propagandhi, The State Lottery

We can jump backwards and forwards for hours about solutions at a personal level but the only real solution is the abolishment of capitalism - a system based around greed, and the introduction of something akin to
Participatory Economics. We can't expect greedy, ignorant fuck-holes like the owner of Nike (and I've seen interviews with this guy, what a fucking jerk) to ever care about anything as long as the system allows him and his CEOs, and actually rewards them for it, to harvest human lives for profit.

Yeah I know, it sounds wishy washy to expect any large amount of people to care enough to make change, but when I was 16 punk music lit a fire inside me that has yet to completely die. I'll still be raving shit when I'm trying to raise my fragile bones from my nursing home bed, located right under a magnificent window view of a factory pumping CO2 into the atmosphere.

"The world's got a bad disease and I think I've got a fucking remedy
Molotov cocktail, freedom will prevail, a new world society."

- Pennywise, WTO

"And so if our schools won't teach us,
we'll have to teach ourselves to analyze and understand the systems of thought-control.
And share it with each other,
never sayed by brass rings or the threat of penalty.
I'll promise you- you promise me-
not to sell each other out to murderers, to thieves..."

- Propagandhi, A people's history of the world

"You can tell by the smile on the CEO'a,
that environmental restraints are about to go"

- Propagandhi, ...And we thought nation states were a bad idea

"Don't you dare step out of line
Everything will be just fine
But you'd better mind your place
Just learn to be a good consumer
You're now a number
You no longer got a face"

- Good Riddance, Nobody likes a cynic

 

[nickthecheese]

Originally posted by up all night
Um if you read my previous posts I have been talking about making changes and needing to get other people involved in the process.

I just find it very hard to believe that there will be intervention by a global body any time in the near future. I didn't say anything about not bothering to try.

I think it's easy for people in this thread to sound like they're lecturing the ones who don't care and I think that can be part of the problem. Before I really started thinking about these issues I kinda laughed at the 'hippies' and their passionate protests. Their way of getting their message across was often to scream the loudest and try to drum the message into people's heads. It was almost like they were trying to guilt people into caring and I resented that. I think there needs to be some more subtle propaganda without photos that pull at the heart strings or dramatic statements. Just an idea anyway.

I just find it very hard to believe that there will be intervention by a global body any time in the near future.

There will never be an intervention by a global body, as this doesn't benefit the people at the top. it will be a movement of the people.


I wasn't trying to attack you, andI apologise if It sounded that way. Your "it's never going to happen" line at the end is one that has been so widely disseminated that it pains me to think that people will say "XYZ, but..." and stop there, admitting defeat.

I also agree about the need for subtle propaganda. Unfortunately, the organizations who could most effectively disseminate this propaganda do not have a vested interest in it's dissemination at-all-whatso-ever.

I do not believe capitalism is the problem. Inheritance of wealth is the problem. I belive in Natural capitalism, but in it's current incarnation I think it should be modified, failing that, destroyed. It's not a fair game if everyone doesn't start on the same level.

 

[MoeBro]

Originally posted by Chik.
For making that comment, you are just as fucked up as you claim carbine to be.

You are disgusting.

Teehee you make me giggle. I'm surprised you didn't post a photo of your angry face along with that.

I don't get this.
At one stage you were post whoring the pictures thread as much as she ever has.
Now you don't have so much spare time you go and call miss kettle black?

 

[up all night]

^ Good on you for picking up on the important part of the thread. And I don't believe anyone has ever posted as much as chik. in that thread however I don't actually have any problem with that at all. She's hot - it brightens the page.

 

[lost_boi]

"be the change you wish to see in the world" yeh?unfortunately it's not always that easy.

unfortunately we dont all see through the same eyes.
unfortuntaley we werent all brought up with moral standards that we should care for others less fortunate than ourselves.
more unfortunately, as pointed out in posts above people who believe they can not make a difference choose ignorance, making any changes harder to achieve.

do not ignore what you cant see.

fortunately, however, at least there are people who care and want to fix whats wrong, if everyone keeps at it that little bit 'wordly' problems like this outside of the small worlds we all live in can one day be fixed.

chin up for a brighter future yeh!

 

[muzby]

when consumers stop demanding lower prices, manufacturers can start to pay workers better...


its one of those damn vicious cycles...

 

[MoeBro]

^ Good on you for picking up on the important part of the thread.

Heh.
I'm keeping in context with my regular posting habit - talking shit 90% of the time, then getting pissed off at something someone says and making it obvious.

But to satisfy you, I'll answer the topic:
Yes, I do give a damn.
I do believe however that it is indeed the lesser of two evils for the time being. Cheap energy hopefully isn't too far away, and that will be a catalyst for a change in the state of third world countries. With all honesty, I do hope that situations as this will change when that happens (assuming no corruption etc.).

I don't believe, however, that me sitting in a forum bitching about it is going to do anything to help the situation, and more to the point, I have more important issues to deal with in my immediate life than whether some child is working for a few pesos (or whatever currency. Shut up.), or starving to death. Instead of bitching about it, why don't you fanatical folk go and try do something about it? If you get anywhere, you have my wholehearted support. And as opposed to just donating for the cause, I'll go out of my way to help when I have settled down somewhat. Thats a promise.



You fight the power, sister!

 

[Pseudo G]

Nike would be forced to either: 1) pay the workers a more decent rate, or 2) crash and burn.

With all the poverty in the world, there are plenty of people that would be more than willing to work for nike and to earn a nike wage. So nike would pick up and move to another poverty stricken area. This takes jobs from one poor area of society and gives it to an equally poor area of society. I don't see how this benefits anyone on the whole.

Ok lets assume we can stop the world from "buying their shit". Are you at the same time going to stop a section of the world from wanting to work for them for what ever small wage that provides?

You make the argument that it's a sweatshop or nothing

I have never made this argument. Please actually read my posts if you're prepared to argue over them.

My point exactly. It's not the best outcome by far considering the people involved. I think we can all agree on that. But when compared to their other options, it looks pretty decent.

It's not a case of this or that. It's a case of the best possible outcome to the current situation they're in. Wishing the world was different may make you all warm and fuzzy inside, but these people are still cold and hungry and this is I believe one of their best options for alleviating that cold and hunger. Although reality is something which is fleeting on BL, at least try to stay grounded in it for this discussion.

I make the argument that the sweatshop should pay you the amount your worth, not a reduced wage cause your from india...

I don't get paid the same as a teacher from America. In fact on average I will get 50% less than a teacher in America (and yes, that's after exchange rate has been taking into account). As I've said, you simply cannot compare occupation wages between countries, it simply does not work.

And all my opinions have been based on the fact that these people CHOOSE to work at the sweat shop. Having children 'Sold' to work at the sweat shop is a completely different kettle of fish and I believe I'll agree with your point of view on that.