if you have taken ecstasy back in the 90s you will know what I am talking about.

[BlueBull]

Just that.
If you can still occasionally enjoy MDMA, doesn't mean that you haven't been impacted by it's neurotoxicity, and thus have a reason to think that modern MDMA is worse.

So, continuing on from my previous post, what you're saying is that both my dealer and me suffer from MDMA-induced neurotoxicity and by chance in both our cases, on the same weekend and unaware of the each other's experience, using the same pills for the first time for both of us, brought back the effects we had both been looking for, for years? That....seems extremely unlikely to me, impossibly so even. I've talked to him recently, he didn't get that effect from any other pill he tried since then and neither have I. I do not agree with what you're saying, though I would have agreed completely before that experience. The chance of that happening is near negligible. By the way, I apparently wasn't the only person that rang him up wanting to buy his entire stash for multiple times the going rate, he told me. So there were more people with exactly the same experience, all seperate from and unaware of each other and all using them for the first time. May I ask how old you are and how long you've been rolling for? I'm simply trying to ascertain how far back your experience goes

Yes, I realize the plural of "anecdote" is not "data", so nothing about this proves anything except to myself. I am, however, certain about this. I would bet my life on it, that's how certain I am. One day the truth will be found out by research but until that day we'll just keep theorizing

 

[indigoaura]

I would have drained my bank account to be able to buy them all.

@BlueBull - Seriously.

 

[indigoaura]

So, continuing on from my previous post, what you're saying is that both my dealer and me suffer from MDMA-induced neurotoxicity and by chance in both our cases, on the same weekend and unaware of the each other's experience, using the same pills for the first time for both of us, brought back the effects we had both been looking for, for years? That....seems extremely unlikely to me, impossibly so even. I've talked to him recently, he didn't get that effect from any other pill he tried since then and neither have I. I do not agree with what you're saying, though I would have agreed completely before that experience. The chance of that happening is near negligible. By the way, I apparently wasn't the only person that rang him up wanting to buy his entire stash for multiple times the going rate, he told me. So there were more people with exactly the same experience, all seperate from and unaware of each other and all using them for the first time. May I ask how old you are and how long you've been rolling for? I'm simply trying to ascertain how far back your experience goes

Yes, I realize the plural of "anecdote" is not "data", so nothing about this proves anything except to myself. I am, however, certain about this. I would bet my life on it, that's how certain I am. One day the truth will be found out by research but until that day we'll just keep theorizing

This is the thing that people just do not understand if it is outside of their realm of personal experience.

Some of this circumstantial evidence is just too much to be coincidental.

I've had lab tested MDMA that so many people tried, and all of them thought it was meh. Yet, people all tried it in different circumstances and at different times, different set/setting situations. Yet all came back and asked "That was fine, but can you get anything like old fashioned ecstasy?" Everyone was underwhelmed.

Surely, if the issue was ME and not the product, SOMEONE would have been impressed with lab tested "pure" MDMA???

Logically, it does not make sense.

And no, the product that I used to take was not mixed with something else. I have been sending my pills in for testing the whole time, from 2000 onward. The old submissions were "MDMA." The new submissions are "MDMA." Something does not add up.

 

[thujone]

Regarding "MDMA doesn't change"... I recall a while ago hearing that different effects were noted between the old Shulgin recipe and another method that had grown popular following supply shocks in Asia increasing the cost of sassafras.

The newer¹ recipe, from what I remember (not 100% certain) provides higher yields and I believe the end product comes out a darker shade than MDMA made with the older recipe.

There is a vague reference to why the hydrobromination of saffrole, characteristic of the new recipe, may result in poorer quality MDMA:

Let us start with theory. Why do reductive amination at all? Many poor thinkers advocate the bromination of safrole with hydrobromic acid followed by amination with methylamine. What could be simpler? What could be more stupid? Chemists have been synthesising various amphetamines for nearly one hundred years now using various sophisticated approaches and only now is the simplistic route being promoted. The problems these people fail to address are two fold. 1) Hydrobromination of saffrole is problematic. 2) The nucleophilic potential of an amine goes up with the degree of substitution. That means the reaction will not stop at the secondary amine MDMA but will aminate one or two more bromosafrole molecules to give a tertiary or quaternary amine and not the product you want.

Reductive Amination of MDP2P using Sodium Cyanoborohydride (NaBH3CN)

I have just been piecing this together over the years so if anyone can offer corrections or fill in the blanks that would be great!

¹ - according to this article the "new" method was actually the first MDMA recipe, and the method Shulgin popularized came later

 

[indigoaura]

Regarding "MDMA doesn't change"... I recall a while ago hearing that different effects were noted between the old Shulgin recipe and another method that had grown popular following supply shocks in Asia increasing the cost of sassafras.

The newer¹ recipe, from what I remember (not 100% certain) provides higher yields and I believe the end product comes out a darker shade than MDMA made with the older recipe.

There is a vague reference to why the hydrobromination of saffrole, characteristic of the new recipe, may result in poorer quality MDMA:

Reductive Amination of MDP2P using Sodium Cyanoborohydride (NaBH3CN)

I have just been piecing this together over the years so if anyone can offer corrections or fill in the blanks that would be great!

¹ - according to this article the "new" method was actually the first MDMA recipe, and the method Shulgin popularized came later

Your perspective would be quite valued in the main thread where this issue is being discussed. "What is wrong with the MDMA Available Today?"
https://www.bluelight.org/xf/threads/what-is-wrong-with-the-mdma-available-today-v2.895430/

 

[HOOH]

So, continuing on from my previous post, what you're saying is that both my dealer and me suffer from MDMA-induced neurotoxicity and by chance in both our cases, on the same weekend and unaware of the each other's experience, using the same pills for the first time for both of us, brought back the effects we had both been looking for, for years?

What I am saying is that a decrease in the quality of an MDMA experience is correlated with MDMA induced neurotoxicity. In your case it was probably just a case of the pill containing a very high dose of MDMA which would "offset" the "permanent tolerance" from MDMA.

May I ask how old you are and how long you've been rolling for? I'm simply trying to ascertain how far back your experience goes

I am not super old and I am not even that experienced with MDMA, although I have some experience with the related Benzofury-compounds. I don't doubt at all that the purity of MDMA has decreased over time, merely that neurotoxicity is definitely a factor in it.

You could check this out on sci-hub if you're interested.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15671132/

There is a vague reference to why the hydrobromination of saffrole, characteristic of the new recipe, may result in poorer quality MDMA:

Your perspective would be quite valued in the main thread where this issue is being discussed. "What is wrong with the MDMA Available Today?"

I tagged you too indigo as you replied to it, but I'd just like to let both of you know that no serious clandestine chemist would ever consider using hydrobromination of safrole to yield MDMA, it's probably the worst possible method out there, and although somewhat simpler, it's way less profitable.
This implies that most clandestine MDMA is not from the hydrobromination route.

 

[BlueBull]

@BlueBull - Seriously.

@indigoaura Seriously serious. I would have taken out a loan if needed I still regret that so much. My dealer still has 2 of those pills, he's saving them for his wedding night he says. Good on him, he's a good guy and I'm happy for him but it makes me sigh nonetheless

What I am saying is that a decrease in the quality of an MDMA experience is correlated with MDMA induced neurotoxicity. In your case it was probably just a case of the pill containing a very high dose of MDMA which would "offset" the "permanent tolerance" from MDMA.

I understand that that's what you're saying. But, that doesn't explain the exact same experience that my dealer, a bunch of other people and me, had, from the exact same pills on the same weekend and seperate from each other. The chance of that happening is so small that it can't be explained by "it's a coincidence". It also can't be explained by dose of the pill since I've had pills that contain +200mg of lab-tested MDMA and they do not produce this effect, same for MDMA crystals, also lab tested and taken in high doses. It isn't the dose, I've tried in every way you can imagine to change up the different variables, the effects are exactly as expected every single time, meh. A lot of fun, don't get me wrong, but meh when compared to how MDMA used to feel, it feels like an entirely different drug altogether, not just a variation of the same effects. It is a different drug, the effects are worlds apart, galaxies even, they have almost nothing in common except for the name and some vague resemblance

Furthermore, I have been rolling for 20 years now and so I've become quite good at judging the dose of a pill, if anything the pills I talk about were medium dose, they were certainly not a particularly high dose because at high doses the physical effects increase and if you read my report, there were almost no physical effects except for nystagmus, (extreme) pupil dilation and (extreme) eye widening. And all the above is about my experience alone, this forum is filled with identical experiences, which makes the chance of it being coincidence or down to something simple as dosage even smaller (as I said, impossibly so even). Just look at how long the "what's wrong with the MDMA available today" thread has become. That's the second version of that thread, there is a first version that's much longer even and there are older threads about it that are just as long, going back a decade and more. As indigoaura already said, if it was due to something like neurotoxicity in combination with dose we would experience it with the high-dosed Dutch superpills of these days as well from time to time. We would also be able to recreate the wanted effects by controlling those variables, but we can't, no matter how often we try.

I am not super old and I am not even that experienced with MDMA, although I have some experience with the related Benzofury-compounds. I don't doubt at all that the purity of MDMA has decreased over time, merely that neurotoxicity is definitely a factor in it.

You could check this out on sci-hub if you're interested.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15671132/

Well, before the experience I talk about here I was convinced it was me, that it wasn't the drugs. Coincidentally I just looked up a bunch of old posts that I made from back in 2014 and I was even defending that position quite religiously, against a whole bunch of people telling me the same thing I am now telling you. That was all flipped on its head by that one experience. My point is that if you're not particularly experienced with MDMA and haven't been rolling for that long, you don't have the "benchmark" experience to compare the drug quality of these days with. What we describe as being disappointing effects compared to years ago, for you that is the standard MDMA effect. I really hope you run into the quality we talk about one day, it will probably change your life, it did for me. It can be as profound as something like DMT can be, seriously, it is much more of a life-changing tool than it is simply "good fun". Thank you for that link, I will read it later today without a doubt, much appreciated

Damn I have a real problem with over-explaining, always do when it's a topic I care a lot about. Sorry (again) for the long post

 

[HOOH]

I understand that that's what you're saying. But, that doesn't explain the exact same experience that my dealer, a bunch of other people and me, had, from the exact same pills on the same weekend and seperate from each other. The chance of that happening is so small that it can't be explained by "it's a coincidence". It also can't be explained by dose of the pill since I've had pills that contain +200mg of lab-tested MDMA and they do not produce this effect, same for MDMA crystals, also lab tested and taken in high doses. It isn't the dose, I've tried in every way you can imagine to change up the different variables, the effects are exactly as expected every single time, meh. Fun, don't get me wrong, but meh when compared to how MDMA used to feel, it feels like an entirely different drug altogether, not just a variation of the same effects. It is a different drug, the effects are worlds apart, galaxies even

Furthermore, I have been rolling for 20 years now and so I've become quite good at judging the dose of a pill, if anything the pills I talk about were medium dose, they were certainly not a particularly high dose because at high doses the physical effects increase and if you read my report, there were almost no physical effects except for nystagmus and pupil dilation. And all that is about my experience alone, this forum is filled with identical experiences, which makes the chance of it being coincidence or down to something simple as dosage even smaller (as I said, impossibly so even). As indigoaura already said, if it was due to something like neurotoxicity in combination with dose we wouldn't occasionally run into samples that still gave us the amazing experiences we used to get every single time and we would experience it with the high-dosed Dutch superpills of these days as well. We would also be able to recreate the wanted effects by controlling those variables, but we can't, no matter how often we try. Just look at how long the "what's wrong with the MDMA available today" thread has become. That's the second version of that thread, there is a first version that's even longer

So what I think you are saying is - even high doses of high purity MDMA didn't make you roll like you did in the past, yet these very specific pills did?

I think the only logical explanation (that I can come up with atleast) then is that it was another drug, perhaps an alpha-alkyl tryptamine, perhaps something even more novel. So the question then is, are you sure that these pills are MDMA, and if you are, why do you think the experience was so different this time?

 

[ThreePointCircle]

@HOOH I know it's a pain because the two threads run to literally hundreds of pages, but it is worth reading the two 'What is wrong with MDMA' threads as what you've said has been discussed several times already. A good summary is posted on the front of the second (current) thread.

 

[BlueBull]

So what I think you are saying is - even high doses of high purity MDMA didn't make you roll like you did in the past, yet these very specific pills did?

I think the only logical explanation (that I can come up with atleast) then is that it was another drug, perhaps an alpha-alkyl tryptamine, perhaps something even more novel. So the question then is, are you sure that these pills are MDMA, and if you are, why do you think the experience was so different this time?

Yes, that's what I'm saying and yes, I am indeed certain. These pills were reagent tested by me (3 different reagents) and sent to a lab by my dealer like he always does, bless him. They contained, according to the lab and my reagents, nothing except MDMA and fillers. Also, that would mean that the mainstream old-school MDMA was in fact that novel drug you talk about, back in the day already, as all MDMA used to be as we describe, it was the norm. Back then drugs were lab-tested as well, that's nothing new. As indigoaura already says, he started sending them in for testing in 2000 and onwards and that goes for me as well (perhaps 2002). The quality we talk about here was still mainstream back in 2000. The lab results back then also said "MDMA" and nothing else

I have no idea why the experience was so different that time, except for that whatever factor made it so back in the day, those pills I talk about above had that property as well. The effects of those pills used to be the norm, all MDMA was like that, if we bought MDMA with the properties of today back then, we would have trown them in the trash as being bunk drugs, garbage, definitely not MDMA and I would have given my dealer an earful. I would have thought he sold me something that tries to mimic MDMA but fails miserably in doing so

 

[thujone]

Your perspective would be quite valued in the main thread where this issue is being discussed. "What is wrong with the MDMA Available Today?"
https://www.bluelight.org/xf/threads/what-is-wrong-with-the-mdma-available-today-v2.895430/

Cheers, I don't think I've seen that thread yet, will have to read through it

I tagged you too indigo as you replied to it, but I'd just like to let both of you know that no serious clandestine chemist would ever consider using hydrobromination of safrole to yield MDMA, it's probably the worst possible method out there, and although somewhat simpler, it's way less profitable.
This implies that most clandestine MDMA is not from the hydrobromination route.

Would you mind expounding about why it's less profitable? I have heard of three recipes so far and IME darker MDMA has more of an edgy feel than the lighter coloured stuff. Something changed after the sassafras supply squeeze but certainly I have seen both types of MDMA since then. I have been assuming brominated safrole to be responsible for the darker stuff because the darker stuff does look like bromine... I know that's a tenuous link but I'm not sure what other than the synthesis method could be responsible for two distinct types of the same substance.

 

[HOOH]

Would you mind expounding about why it's less profitable? I have heard of three recipes so far and IME darker MDMA has more of an edgy feel than the lighter coloured stuff. Something changed after the sassafras supply squeeze but certainly I have seen both types of MDMA since then. I have been assuming brominated safrole to be responsible for the darker stuff because the darker stuff does look like bromine... I know that's a tenuous link but I'm not sure what other than the synthesis method could be responsible for two distinct types of the same substance.

It's less profitable because the yields are low due to over alkylation, essentially you'd get high yields of an impurity, where the MDMA nitrogen is attached to another safrole-like compound. Using reductive amination is not that much harder, and much more profitable.

As for the color, it's unlikely for that route to result in "dark MDMA" as a simple acid-base extraction would get rid of the bromine. I remember hearing about "brown sugar MDMA" in Canada, it could be related to that.

 

[thujone]

Thanks, good info. I have to go back to the drawing board on this. Maybe it's changes in safrole quality having an effect on end product, rather than the method of synthesis?

 

[Zephyn]

I took a lot of ecstacy in the 2010's and I know what you mean so kind of disproves your point

 

[BlueBull]

I took a lot of ecstacy in the 2010's and I know what you mean so kind of disproves your point

May I ask who you're replying to? The OP and his first post or someone else's post?

 

[shezinphx]

Interesting. I remember in the early 2000s everyone complaining about how pills were nothing like they were in the 80s and early 90s. It's definitely nostalgia and being young.

 

[Rectify]

I bet those "magic pills" that your dealer was hoarding were from the 1990's.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

From the 90-ties myself so from experience back then pills also differt in effects. No experience with the current ecstasy as i don't use it anymore. But a certain case comes to mind.

There were Marlboro's that contained a whopping 110 mg. Everyone was raving about them. Personally the TT that circulated at that time with only 70 mg felt 100 times better. Something was off in that Marlboro press.

Relating to the guy constantly nagging about neurotoxicity playin a role. How do you explain the fact that for all these E-tards. Methylone and 6-APB did give that glowing experience, they are as close to the real thing as you can get?

Surely these would have resulted in disappointing experience's

 

[RomanJ]

I had some Qdance pills last year that came close to feeling I used to get in the 90s, they were nice clean happy pills. But not the same as the dose was about 200-300mg.
I also bought some pink skull pills which tested as MDMA but we're absolute junk, they gave me a small buzz but God knows how they passed a regagent test.

 

[AutoTripper]

Interesting. I remember in the early 2000s everyone complaining about how pills were nothing like they were in the 80s and early 90s. It's definitely nostalgia and being young.

Where I lived, the early 2000’s were the golden years. Especially financially.

OG 90’s pills- <mod-edit>some price</mod-edit>

2000’s, fantastic 120 mg upwards <mod-edit>some price</mod-edit>. Until 2005. I knew plenty of old timers and collected a tonne of impressions, memories, comparisons and tales.

I could say so much more on this but this persistently arising, identical every time line of debunk….


One thing. Neurotoxicity- genuine physical assault on the brain. I suffered (wrong word-took) as much as I know of.

9 years later, no single whine about loss of magic. Before Meh’s invasion.