Carefully Calculated Suicide - A Philosophical Discussion

[Foreigner]

Likewise, there are plenty with things such as survivors guilt from an exact scenario and become suicidal as a result. Some may fear death- innately we all do, it's how we are wired as a species and have made it thus far along the chain of evolution, but it isn't those innate survival instincts that drives someone to suicide. I believe it's largely processed in the frontal cortex, where the brain seemingly ironicly overcomes its survival instincts out of some means of desperate self-preservation(removal from pain). It's usually not so much about not fearing death as it is not having a reason to live, or having a reason to want to die. I think it's a bit of a generalization to assume all who claim they don't fear death are liars, especially considering potential intoxication. I believe people are fickle in general and perhaps in the heat of the moment a statement like that might be entirely true.

I believe I mentioned other examples of people who claim they fear death, and not just the liar example. I'm not sure about the frontal cortex correlation, I'd have to read more about that... but removal of pain is certainly involved.

The people trying to escape suffering would also probably be high on the list of those likely not to fear death. But as far as suicide being a cowards act- I don't think I said that although perhaps implied it. Regardless, I don't really think the coward part to be true, as a coward probably wouldn't take the final step. But I do think it's a way of escaping one's own responsibilities, particularly in the situation that you mentioned of a trader gone wrong. Not really the best example, as that trader could just take a normal job and live near or below the poverty line like a large percentage of the world. I've heard of almost identical stories except they ran up their credit before exiting the world, leaving their family to take on the financial burden. So it's not clear it's the pain of poverty these people are trying to escape- it could easily be the fall from grace and the embarrassment of doing so. Which, was the point I intended to make... very rarely does one commit suicide without passing on the pain to those closest.

It's easy for an outsider to look at an inside situation and accuse someone of cowardice, but the mechanism of suicide is always the same. Coping structures are insufficient for an adverse event or condition. You can accuse someone of not taking responsibility all you want but if the person lacks the structures to distribute the suffering, then they will have nothing to fall back on to support them in a crisis. Suicide is always a teeter totter of severity of adversity vs. coping structures.

Someone with family, a partner, a good job, a meaningful, money, resources, little or no pre-disposing health conditions, etc... is going to have more fallback structures if one of those things get picked off, compared to someone who has fewer.

And sometimes, a person may have all those things but the adverse event is still beyond their capacity to cope. It's hard to predict, which is why I don't like the accusation of cowardice. No person really, truly wants to do it if there is a real, viable solution to their pain that they can be convinced will carry them out of the darkness. Most people want more life but don't know how to get it.

To be fair according to this study, suicide rate is substantially higher for people living in poverty, but imo that has a lot more to do with the bs that come with poverty, so if we are not speaking on OP's situation, then no suicide isn't always hedonistic. Even still, I'd find it hard not to argue that it's passing on the pain maybe with very rare exception(terminally ill).

I'm not sure about passing on the pain. It causes pain but it's not pain transference like how energy transfers. When a person dies, the root of their suffering is gone because the mechanism that suffers - the life form - is extinguished. People who experience trauma because the person dies are experiencing their own discrete version of events based on their unique configuration of factors. People who knew the deceased experience pain but it's hard to argue that it's the pain that the suicidal person had.

The majority of suicides in the world are minorities (racial, sexual, etc.), the poor, the disabled, and men. It's no secret why. I feel that the guilt-tripping narratives about cowardice and whatever else are foisted on the disprivileged by the privileged so that the disprivileged will keep playing the game and live in a ponzi scheme that serves somebody else. If we really cared about people killing themselves - or any mental or physical illness caused by society - then humanity would be rooting out those systems. Instead, we ignore the conditions that cause most treatable mental illness, and act like it's a big mystery when someone kills themselves.

People commit suicide because human life is mostly hell. The only way it's not hell is when a person has resources and structures to shield them against the hardships of life, and even then there are no guarantees. I'm not saying we shouldn't try to prevent suicide - I think that's why it's illegal, to enable prevention mechanisms - but humans are no different than other animals. When parrots are neglected and have no social bonds, they start plucking their feathers out. Self-mutilation is common among social species that are deprived of structures and resources that they need to thrive. People don't kill themselves when they have those connections.

Our human society has major, major problems in terms of how it is structured. Many of the structures are violently oppressive. For example, if you don't have money, you suffer terribly. Human supports disappear. You lose everything, your home, etc. You end up on the streets. So the system coerces people with violence to make money, and usually that money is acquired by means that require an insufferable daily toil. We are in end stage capitalism where that suffering is reaching all time highs. I believe the suicide rate in the U.S. was much higher this year. We don't have a system that provides basic care for people. In the U.S. they would call this socialism and it would never happen -- this myth persists in one of the wealthiest nations in the world, that helping others is commie brainwashing. So people keep shooting up schools, malls, sporting events, and people kill themselves in droves yearly (5th most common cause of death in the U.S.) because their daily toil is impossible to reckon with.

 

[finitelifeform]

Wrong. They use barbiturates like Nembutal, Seconal. They don't use other drugs because they are dismissed as impractical. Barbs will really fast, and they act like a general anaesthetic, so there will be no pain. That's what Dignitas uses and I am pretty sure that's what they use with Victoria's system here in Australia, but don't quote me on it, no one is allowed to tell us what medications they use, but I bet it's amylobarbitone which is a barbiturate with effects much like that of Nembutal just slower-acting.

There are quite a lot of resources out there that outline different methods. Euthanasia organizations that advocate for people to end their own lives utilize different combinations. You cannot get nembutal or if you can its really hard and most people cant get it. Prisons cant get most drugs needed due to the pharmaceutrical embargo that has been ongoing from the EU to the US for years now.

Rest assured, cocktails like the one I mentioned are recommended and among the most effective peaceful methods. I know because I spent a long time researching it to end my life at that particular moment in time. I went through all the euthanasia groups and organizations and accessed all the available literature including elaborate guides written by those who are medically trained and qualified to give painless death to people who seek them out, and even biographies by psychologists who helped people to overcome the process of killing themselves. Amitryptaline was actually one of the most common medications used for suicide, accidental and deliberate. Just like the first generation of sleeping pills, they were readily lethal without much effort. The thing is, you cant keep all the medication down as your body will naturally seek to throw back up, unless you take an anti-emetic. So people would drink or take benzos along with it. One of the reasons why amitryptaline isnt prescribed as a primary medication for depression is because of the high rates of suicidality related to its use. The third generation of antidepressants (SSRIs) have different mechanisms of action and their potential for fatal injury are significantly lower.

 

[laserbeast]

From the perspective of the self, then it seems like ensuring your ending is euphoric- but anyone who has seen someone OD knows it's nothing pretty and sure doesn't look very glamorous.

I never said or implied that OD would be the method, nor did anyone mention looking glamorous on their way out. However, a heroin OD is by far one of the most painless ways to go. The original topic was about living one's life in the way of one's own choosing (a drug binge in my example, but there are many others), then ending one's life on one's own terms. Pleasure would be guaranteed followed by a painless death, as both of these are very easy to achieve.

The question isn't, "Would it be painful or painless?" The question is, "Is there truly anything inherently 'wrong' with a person of sound mind and body choosing to do something like this?"

I agree that the choice to end one's own life is essentially a matter of determining that there is nothing to be gained from continuing to live. Whether or not this is an attitude to be criticized remains up to the individual. Someone might judge a person as "selfish" for ending their life. Should a person continue living solely for the benefit of others? While it's not black and white, I lean heavily on the side that assigns a person the right to their own life. Condemning a person for choosing to live or not live is basically telling a person they don't own their own existence.

 

[LandsUnknown]

These sorts of "epic binges" on drugs don't tend to be anywhere near as enjoyable as you expect them to be. If you go that route, the side effects just start to get the better of the whole experience fast, you crash, then do it again, which leads to the highs getting less enjoyable so slowly that you don't really notice right away. But you notice after a while, up the dosage, this works for a while, rinse and repeat. Doing this takes you further and further away from reality, which makes it harder and harder to relate to others. So, you'll just kind of be in your own head, intermittently euphoric and intermittently feeling like absolute and total shit from the side effects of the drugs.

Also, you kind of lose awareness overall with time. Thus, you would just kind of slowly be drowning yourself in drugs rather than having this incredible flash that you describe. So, you'll essentially be left with a kind of "slow burn" of a different variety rather than it being something different in that sense. The "slow burn" that you describe is just what life is and what all of us are stuck with, and there really isn't any way around that honestly. So, this kind of hedonistic approach never accomplishes what you intend for it to, because you're trying to reach a nirvana that doesn't exist. Binging on drugs is nowhere near as "great" as you expect them to be. I'm sure most people on here can attest to that as well.

So, why not just make the most of what we all have here in this world, which is admittedly kind of a "slow burn" by nature. If you truly set out to make the best of it, maybe you'll ultimately find that you don't feel this way anymore. If you try to create a life built around momentary pleasures, the reality is that you are never really living. You're just putting yourself into a sort of dream world almost while still walking around and giving the appearance like you're living in the same world as everyone else.

Creating the sort of "brief flash" you described is not really possible. That's why everyone says "you can't catch the dragon", and they're right. The more you try and try to catch it, the more problems and unpleasantries start cropping up in your life. So, it's basically just trading one "slow burn" for another that's different and maybe or maybe not a little less slow of a burn... and may or may not have more moments of euphoria. The key is to just accept things as they are, otherwise life will begin to suck more and more. I wish it were different though. I really do, and I feel what you're saying here hard.

 

[tubgirl.jpg]

People who claim they don't fear death are usually liars, in an apathetic state/dissociated from their emotions, or they haven't had a near death experience. They have never experienced the adrenaline rush, chaos

I've had several near death experiences and I'm not afraid of death, though I am afraid of dying. I'm not dissociated from my feelings, thank you.
You pull assumptions out of your ass.

 

[tubgirl.jpg]

We're forced into this world. Every born child is another death sentence. To chose when and how we will die should be the least society can give us.
But no. There's just fear-mongering and the collective masses that nod in unison that suicidal people are broken and needs to be fixed.
We don't need to be fixed. You need to open your fucking eyes.

 

[Foreigner]

I've had several near death experiences and I'm not afraid of death, though I am afraid of dying. I'm not dissociated from my feelings, thank you.
You pull assumptions out of your ass.

I said usually, not always.

 

[Endlessknight]

Greetings all, I’ve been thinking about suicide a lot lately. Not just on a personal level but also more generally and would like to hears others thoughts. Basically, what I wondering is: Can a sane rational person consciously decide to end their or life? Or is suicide proof mental illness?

 

[JTemperance]

I think it's pretty clear from history that sane rational people can decide to kill themselves. Whether or not that's true when no extenuating circumstances are present -- when you don't have an terminal illness that promises excruciating pain and inevitable death, when you're not barricaded inside a fortress that's about to surrender to the tender mercies of Chinghis Khan and his men, when you aren't involved in the last stages of a shoot-out with the police and down to your last few bullets, etc. -- that's a little more unclear, at least IMHO.

 

[Jerry Atrick]

Greetings all, I’ve been thinking about suicide a lot lately. Not just on a personal level but also more generally and would like to hears others thoughts. Basically, what I wondering is: Can a sane rational person consciously decide to end their or life? Or is suicide proof mental illness?

Greetings and welcome to BlueLight. I think @JTemperance is on to something in the above post. Are there any circumstances like health or finances that is causing you to feel this way? Do you feel depressed or lethargic for no reason or can you pinpoint something that could cause you to feel like you should end your life?

 

[Endlessknight]

I think it's pretty clear from history that sane rational people can decide to kill themselves. Whether or not that's true when no extenuating circumstances are present -- when you don't have an terminal illness that promises excruciating pain and inevitable death, when you're not barricaded inside a fortress that's about to surrender to the tender mercies of Chinghis Khan and his men, when you aren't involved in the last stages of a shoot-out with the police and down to your last few bullets, etc. -- that's a little more unclear, at least IMHO.

So what you are saying is that suicide is rational when the expected value of future pain is great?

 

[Endlessknight]

Greetings and welcome to BlueLight. I think @JTemperance is on to something in the above post. Are there any circumstances like health or finances that is causing you to feel this way? Do you feel depressed or lethargic for no reason or can you pinpoint something that could cause you to feel like you should end your life?

Hi Jerry, I would like to avoid talking about personal circumstances and keep the discussion centered on the general question of when/if suicide is the best option.

 

[n3ophy7e]

I am so torn about this issue. I'm gonna sleep on it and come back tomorrow with some thoughts.

 

[hylite]

You can always keep trying or find a purpose to keep on no matter what if focused on a positivity for this strength. However suicide, this just way too final AND hurtful. Please don't hurt because it helps so VERY much. Thanks.

 

[Endlessknight]

You can always keep trying or find a purpose to keep on no matter what if focused on a positivity for this strength. However suicide, this just way too final AND hurtful. Please don't hurt because it helps so VERY much. Thanks.

So suicide is never an option no matter what?

 

[hylite]

So suicide is never an option no matter what?

Just engaging for coversation. I guess we will have to wait for more advice. But the ones that leave us are the only ones that will really know then. For the rest of us they leave us loneliness ? I guess so far at this point. But thought may lead to some discovery. Is all I know.

 

[JTemperance]

So what you are saying is that suicide is rational when the expected value of future pain is great?

More so when "all hope is lost," but the expected value of the pain associated with that forlorn hope can be rationally factored in, IMO.

I think from the historical examples, we can see relatively large numbers of sane+rational people choosing self-destruction on the brink of catastrophe... These are cases where we have no reason to think they were mentally unstable (certainly not whole groups acting en masse) and no reason to doubt the motivation for their suicide.

Of course "catastrophe" is defined differently between cultures/societies (not to mention individual character/psyche) -- bringing shame upon one's family has certainly been a catastrophe in many societies, even though the contemporary USA considers it a diverting way to pass the time and/or monetize your brand on social media.

Now, can someone make the same decision sanely+rationally with no such crisis impending? Some would say that the experience of living day-to-day in a state of extreme mental, physical, or moral pain is (or can be) a catastrophe to the same degree.

But where euthanasia laws are most liberal, non-physical/suffering/disability has been the most challenging reason to get approved. I think there is just some lingering doubt -- a worry over whether or not it is, in fact, evidence of insanity or irrationality for someone to be actively suicidal without an objectively manifested catastrophe on their hands.

 

[Endlessknight]

But where euthanasia laws are most liberal, non-physical/suffering/disability has been the most challenging reason to get approved. I think there is just some lingering doubt -- a worry over whether or not it is, in fact, evidence of insanity or irrationality for someone to be actively suicidal without an objectively manifested catastrophe on their hands.

Objective in what sense?

So for suicide to be rational it has to make sense to independent party?

 

[JTemperance]

Objective in what sense?

So for suicide to be rational it has to make sense to independent party?

Objective in the traditional sense, the "opposite" of subjective -- but not implying any kind of value judgment or superiority for the objective.

I was using "objective" to mean: relating to something that is not wholly circumscribed by the bounds of a given subjectivity, with an existence that is usually present in matter; relating to something that has a form of its own, with independent properties that don't rely on a subject to define them; relating to something that can be accessed mentally in an unmediated way, with the possibility of gaining knowledge about it through the senses and one's reason.

Nowhere did I say that it had to "make sense" to an independent party; many people would still say it makes no sense at all to kill yourself if you are suffering from a terminal physical illness or facing life in prison, even though those problems are objectively present. Nor was I arguing that suicide is only rational/sane if there's an objective crisis immediately ahead. (Frankly, on a personal level, I sometimes feel like suicide is a rational choice at all times and a sane one under any circumstances....)

I was merely pointing out, first, that it seems easy to accept the rationality of people who kill themselves in the face of horrible objective situations where an outside force threatens them (fortress, shootout, etc.), and, second, that while the rationality of suicide in the face of an internal problem is a bit more complex, it seems to be a much simpler situation when the problem at hand has as an objective existence -- i.e. a physical, not mental, illness or disability. Suicide on purely subjective grounds is one of the more ambiguous areas within euthanasia "bioethics" AFAIK.

I think severity is, as you mentioned, a factor that is hard to avoid in assessing the sanity/rationality of someone's suicide, since it seems so integral to our common sense -- if it's suicide because of indigestion or suicide because of stage IV colon cancer, you can say either way: "He killed himself because his belly hurt."

But trying to measure the severity of other people's suffering is laden with pitfalls even in the ordinary run of things -- all the more so if underestimating it might consign the person to torture and overestimating it might irreversibly steal their life from them. At least with physical illnesses, unlike mental ones, there are some objective indicators that can be studied to get an idea of the severity (and immediacy) of suffering, which in turn can lead to more confidence over rationality/sanity of suicide or lack thereof.

I'm leaving it an open question whether or not "suffering" -- certain or possible, present or anticipated, acute or chronic, physical or mental -- is the only sane and rational ground upon which to commit suicide. It's certainly hard to escape the conclusion that suffering in one form or another is the main driver of everyday suicides. Without suffering, I guess we're talking more of an ideological/philosophical/religious form suicide, where there's a whole theory underwriting the act.

 

[wareika]

Greetings all, I’ve been thinking about suicide a lot lately. Not just on a personal level but also more generally and would like to hears others thoughts. Basically, what I wondering is: Can a sane rational person consciously decide to end their or life? Or is suicide proof mental illness?

Here's my quick & dirty background, based on the little i do know.
Planet earth is a crossroads jump-off point for literally trillions of souls. Every soul that drops off here has got backstory.

So what are the objective ways of measuring anything like suicide.

Do the Vedas/Eastern wisdoms know the score ? Not in an absolute sense, but they can be utilised in our own active art of philosophy.

(I've heard all kinds of crazy rools & blahblah about suicide from Eastern sources, after a while i wanted to ask the nice man for a wowwipop:>

Do the Western european philsophic wisdom schools know that score in an absolute sense? I might doubt that too. Although all kinds of active thought might bring you closer to figure out the reasonable level of it, which is basically the question of how does suicide shape up for My soul, My journey. Does it ever make sense technically to yank your computer's cord from the socket? Idk

When you hear the relevant wisdom about suicide for ((your soul)) you might get a tingle or concentrated heat somewhere in the body..

Its an unknown, and a dark wierd sliver of that unknown. Raising my glass to anyone who's on the dark daily.