Carefully Calculated Suicide - A Philosophical Discussion

[Endlessknight]

Objective in the traditional sense, the "opposite" of subjective -- but not implying any kind of value judgment or superiority for the objective.

I was using "objective" to mean: relating to something that is not wholly circumscribed by the bounds of a given subjectivity, with an existence that is usually present in matter; relating to something that has a form of its own, with independent properties that don't rely on a subject to define them; relating to something that can be accessed mentally in an unmediated way, with the possibility of gaining knowledge about it through the senses and one's reason.

Nowhere did I say that it had to "make sense" to an independent party; many people would still say it makes no sense at all to kill yourself if you are suffering from a terminal physical illness or facing life in prison, even though those problems are objectively present. Nor was I arguing that suicide is only rational/sane if there's an objective crisis immediately ahead. (Frankly, on a personal level, I sometimes feel like suicide is a rational choice at all times and a sane one under any circumstances....)

I was merely pointing out, first, that it seems easy to accept the rationality of people who kill themselves in the face of horrible objective situations where an outside force threatens them (fortress, shootout, etc.), and, second, that while the rationality of suicide in the face of an internal problem is a bit more complex, it seems to be a much simpler situation when the problem at hand has as an objective existence -- i.e. a physical, not mental, illness or disability. Suicide on purely subjective grounds is one of the more ambiguous areas within euthanasia "bioethics" AFAIK.

I think severity is, as you mentioned, a factor that is hard to avoid in assessing the sanity/rationality of someone's suicide, since it seems so integral to our common sense -- if it's suicide because of indigestion or suicide because of stage IV colon cancer, you can say either way: "He killed himself because his belly hurt."

But trying to measure the severity of other people's suffering is laden with pitfalls even in the ordinary run of things -- all the more so if underestimating it might consign the person to torture and overestimating it might irreversibly steal their life from them. At least with physical illnesses, unlike mental ones, there are some objective indicators that can be studied to get an idea of the severity (and immediacy) of suffering, which in turn can lead to more confidence over rationality/sanity of suicide or lack thereof.

I'm leaving it an open question whether or not "suffering" -- certain or possible, present or anticipated, acute or chronic, physical or mental -- is the only sane and rational ground upon which to commit suicide. It's certainly hard to escape the conclusion that suffering in one form or another is the main driver of everyday suicides. Without suffering, I guess we're talking more of an ideological/philosophical/religious form suicide, where there's a whole theory underwriting the act.

Thanks for taking the time to offer such a well thought out reply, it's definitely helped me gather my thoughts. Suicide is about suffering and since each person's suffering is unique and incomparable to another's objectivity goes out the window. It comes down to two questions. 1) Does the suffering outweigh the good, and 2) Is the suffering likely to end.

The 2nd question is by far the hardest to answer, at lest for me. Predictions about the future are always hard to make, even more difficult when one is suffering.

 

[JTemperance]

Thanks for taking the time to offer such a well thought out reply, it's definitely helped me gather my thoughts. Suicide is about suffering and since each person's suffering is unique and incomparable to another's objectivity goes out the window. It comes down to two questions. 1) Does the suffering outweigh the good, and 2) Is the suffering likely to end.

The 2nd question is by far the hardest to answer, at lest for me. Predictions about the future are always hard to make, even more difficult when one is suffering.

I agree with your framework to a large extent, and you've identified a major dilemma in how a current sufferer can make accurate predictions about his/her future suffering. Another possible issue I see has to do with influence of time on such an extremely subjective question -- the role time plays in constructing and transforming each of us as a subject.

The hoary old cliche that "suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem" is (IMHO) both poignant and relevant here, especially if you've ever been able to look back on your life and see that the passage of time has erased or transformed (or at least softened) something that you thought was permanent -- not just a life situation or a physical ailment or a mental problem, but your orientation towards them.

When that happens, time has not been "healing all wounds," although distance is a great palliative; instead, if you'll forgive me for straining this analogy.... It's more like time has been adjusting the focus wheel on a telescope you use to observe the problems orbiting your existence...; it's more like time has been ever-so-slowly moving the lenses of memory and context, cycling them in and out of your gaze, until one day you notice that your personal cosmos looks quite different than it used to.

And it's not just your telescope: every interpretive apparatus you own, every piece of equipment to gauge suffering, they may all have been tampered with or transformed. That scale you mention in your first question, for instance, the one that weighs the suffering and the good; that is exactly the kind of device that time can end up recalibrating totally, without your ever being aware it was taking place....

 

[Crash Override]

Can a sane rational person consciously decide to end their or life? Or is suicide proof mental illness?

Very tricky question. I guess it seems rational to the suicidal person at the time? But is really rational or a matter of no other option?

Does it indicate mental illness? Well... maybe no. There are specific criteria for mental illness but... maybe ultimately it comes down to.. that taking your own life is not natural so that automatically means something isn;t right? As humans we class that as mental illness. So maybe the answer is yes.

 

[Endlessknight]

I agree with your framework to a large extent, and you've identified a major dilemma in how a current sufferer can make accurate predictions about his/her future suffering. Another possible issue I see has to do with influence of time on such an extremely subjective question -- the role time plays in constructing and transforming each of us as a subject.

The hoary old cliche that "suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem" is (IMHO) both poignant and relevant here, especially if you've ever been able to look back on your life and see that the passage of time has erased or transformed (or at least softened) something that you thought was permanent -- not just a life situation or a physical ailment or a mental problem, but your orientation towards them.

When that happens, time has not been "healing all wounds," although distance is a great palliative; instead, if you'll forgive me for straining this analogy.... It's more like time has been adjusting the focus wheel on a telescope you use to observe the problems orbiting your existence...; it's more like time has been ever-so-slowly moving the lenses of memory and context, cycling them in and out of your gaze, until one day you notice that your personal cosmos looks quite different than it used to.

And it's not just your telescope: every interpretive apparatus you own, every piece of equipment to gauge suffering, they may all have been tampered with or transformed. That scale you mention in your first question, for instance, the one that weighs the suffering and the good, for instance; that is exactly the kind of device that time can end up recalibrating totally, without your ever being aware it was taking place....

Given all this how can one go about making a rational decision when it comes to suicide? Is suicide purely a matter for intuition?

 

[n3ophy7e]

I keep wanting to type out a comprehensive reply to this.....but then the thoughts just don't come out right.
I have attempted (and, thankfully, failed) suicide 6 times altogether. I now joke that I gave up trying because I clearly suck at it
ALL of my suicide attempts were heavily under the influence of drugs and alcohol.
Some of them were accompanied by a suicide note, others were not. As such I have written and typed numerous well thought out suicide notes in my time.

Now.... I have been diagnosed with Major Depressive Disorder and Generalised Anxiety Disorder, both of which I am medicated for. If I go off my meds my symptoms return, indicating that these disorders are likely to be life-long. Does that mean I am mentally ill, despite being medicated and my symptoms largely under control?

In this discussion, what exactly are the definitions of "sane" and "mentally ill"?

And then there are circumstances....
Is it sane and rational for a young healthy BUT very depressed person to commit suicide? I would say no, because of the abundance of opportunities for their mental state and life situation to change.
Is it sane and rational for an elderly, terminally-ill and very depressed person to commit suicide? I would perhaps say yes. They've lived a full life and chances are they have nothing but pain and suffering ahead of them.

However, humans are conscious and self-aware, and with that comes choice, therefore anyone can decide to do anything, really. I think perhaps the question is, is the decision to end one's life a good, wise, pre-meditated decision? Or is a poor, ill-considered, impulsive decision? When you think of it that way, does the state of mental illness even matter?

 

[Endlessknight]

I keep wanting to type out a comprehensive reply to this.....but then the thoughts just don't come out right.
I have attempted (and, thankfully, failed) suicide 6 times altogether. I now joke that I gave up trying because I clearly suck at it
ALL of my suicide attempts were heavily under the influence of drugs and alcohol.
Some of them were accompanied by a suicide note, others were not. As such I have written and typed numerous well thought out suicide notes in my time.

Now.... I have been diagnosed with Major Depressive Disorder and Generalised Anxiety Disorder, both of which I am medicated for. If I go off my meds my symptoms return, indicating that these disorders are likely to be life-long. Does that mean I am mentally ill, despite being medicated and my symptoms largely under control?

In this discussion, what exactly are the definitions of "sane" and "mentally ill"?

And then there are circumstances....
Is it sane and rational for a young healthy BUT very depressed person to commit suicide? I would say no, because of the abundance of opportunities for their mental state and life situation to change.
Is it sane and rational for an elderly, terminally-ill and very depressed person to commit suicide? I would perhaps say yes. They've lived a full life and chances are they have nothing but pain and suffering ahead of them.

However, humans are conscious and self-aware, and with that comes choice, therefore anyone can decide to do anything, really. I think perhaps the question is, is the decision to end one's life a good, wise, pre-meditated decision? Or is a poor, ill-considered, impulsive decision? When you think of it that way, does the state of mental illness even matter?

Greetings, n3ophy7e. Thanks for taking the time to reply. I too suffer from GAD but would like to keep personal circumstances out of this discussion. But yes I would say anyone who has been given a behavioral health diagnosis by a professional would qualify as "mentally ill" for our purposes.

 

[Drunk on Kombucha]

Hi all. I'll do my best to articulate my thoughts on this matter but I'm mostly just thinking out loud.

Ultimately, I think suicide is a long term/permanent solution to what may potentially only be a temporary problem. In the long and short, life is temporary either way and perhaps only the Buddha would argue that it is possible to exist without suffering. Some suffering seems infinite, unbearable, and like it ruins all chances at ever truly being able to "enjoy" or live life. But, from a simplified perspective and like with most if not all things in life, it is all a matter of perspective. And that is where the disconnect begins because it can be incredibly difficult if not impossible for someone who has no intention and no ideations about ending their own life to truly empathize with someone who feels they are on the verge of suicide. An analogy I have tried to use before is...the depression, pain and anguish are kind of like starting down a dark hallway. Sometimes there is a light at the end that we can't yet see, sometimes the only light is found by turning back around, but in the moment it very much feels like being completely lost in the dark with no end in sight.

I've had some debate before with people who have been effected by suicide (myself included) about whether or not it is ultimately nothing but a selfish choice. The general consensus is that it comes down to nothing but selfishness (though I think bitterness and hurt are not without attachment to this notion) and perhaps that selfishness is a staple symptom of what many would describe as being mental illness. Hopefully I am not just going off on a tangent and losing track of your initial inquiry but I am just letting out some thoughts.

In the end though, I empathize with the one I have lost because I feel I fully understand what it feels like to want nothing more than to be able to start your life over because the rest of it seems like it has already gone past the point of no return and can never get better. Personally, I've found it can and will get better but time is the primary factor here which certainly doesn't necessarily make sticking it out easy. I can understand why and how people could be driven to such a pivotal point but, after seeing how it effected myself and my family, I could never do it solely because of all the hurt it will cause. But I understand that that perspective becomes easily blurred when the going has gotten very tough. However I hope that anyone who is struggling knows that they have support here

 

[Skorpio]

I think this debate often gets into the weeds due to fuzzy logic.

I picture the various cases on a continuum, where the limit boundaries can be pretty easily described, but the cases in between the limits are pretty hard to define and depending on context may not produce the same answer when re-analyzed. Think the question how many grains of sand makes a pile? When adding one grain at a time from nothing you will achieve a different answer than when subtracting a grain at a time from 100,000.

One limit would be something like jumping to one's death to avoid a worse death like a fire in a tall building. The other limit is harder to define but a working example could be somebody without prior ideation taking acid and having a bad trip and jumping out a window.

This thought experiment gets muddled of course because where one stands on this continuum is will change with frame of reference. Most people who kill themselves truly believe that there is no other option and they are in a metaphorical burning building when they perform the act. I personally think the majority of suicides involve mis-percieving the finality of the emotional situation.

Where it gets really tricky is in a case where somebody has done their due diligence, tried and failed for quite some time to come to terms with life, and then makes that decision. If one is suicidal for years after (honestly) exhausting other options, I think it is more justified than say somebody snuffing it after a traumatic life event.

Even that has its issues, namely how long must one go about their life and how many interventions must they try before it becomes an acceptible option? This is another thing which I an unsure can be answered in a legitimate way.

 

[Endlessknight]

I think this debate often gets into the weeds due to fuzzy logic.

I picture the various cases on a continuum, where the limit boundaries can be pretty easily described, but the cases in between the limits are pretty hard to define and depending on context may not produce the same answer when re-analyzed. Think the question how many grains of sand makes a pile? When adding one grain at a time from nothing you will achieve a different answer than when subtracting a grain at a time from 100,000.

One limit would be something like jumping to one's death to avoid a worse death like a fire in a tall building. The other limit is harder to define but a working example could be somebody without prior ideation taking acid and having a bad trip and jumping out a window.

This thought experiment gets muddled of course because where one stands on this continuum is will change with frame of reference. Most people who kill themselves truly believe that there is no other option and they are in a metaphorical burning building when they perform the act. I personally think the majority of suicides involve mis-percieving the finality of the emotional situation.

Where it gets really tricky is in a case where somebody has done their due diligence, tried and failed for quite some time to come to terms with life, and then makes that decision. If one is suicidal for years after (honestly) exhausting other options, I think it is more justified than say somebody snuffing it after a traumatic life event.

Even that has its issues, namely how long must one go about their life and how many interventions must they try before it becomes an acceptible option? This is another thing which I an unsure can be answered in a legitimate way.

What qualifies as due diligence? How much time/effort does one need to put in before the decision nor longer is rash?

 

[Drunk on Kombucha]

What qualifies as due diligence? How much time/effort does one need to put in before the decision nor longer is rash?

I can't really comment as to their perspective but I think it really just boils down to a very personal thing that no outside viewer can totally understand or rationalize the same way.

Makes me think of, like for example, trigeminal neuralgia, aka the suicide disease last I heard. No know treatments and those who suffer from it are prone to excruciating pain instantly at any time throughout the day. Since it is not so much based off purely emotional/psychological factors, it seems easy to rationalize. But basically one can either hope that eventually some discovery is made or that something new comes along that they've never tried and it helps improve quality of life, or one can look at the past, see that it gives no reason to expect anything different in the future, and then decide whether it is worth continuing to suffer

 

[Endlessknight]

I can't really comment as to their perspective but I think it really just boils down to a very personal thing that no outside viewer can totally understand or rationalize the same way.

Makes me think of, like for example, trigeminal neuralgia, aka the suicide disease last I heard. No know treatments and those who suffer from it are prone to excruciating pain instantly at any time throughout the day. Since it is not so much based off purely emotional/psychological factors, it seems easy to rationalize. But basically one can either hope that eventually some discovery is made or that something new comes along that they've never tried and it helps improve quality of life, or one can look at the past, see that it gives no reason to expect anything different in the future, and then decide whether it is worth continuing to suffer

In cases like that do you still believe suicide is "selfish"?

 

[Skorpio]

What qualifies as due diligence? How much time/effort does one need to put in before the decision nor longer is rash?

I don't have an answer to that question. I think it is so dependent on frame of reference that trying to answer it is like trying to answer a paradox

 

[Endlessknight]

I don't have an answer to that question. I think it is so dependent on frame of reference that trying to answer it is like trying to answer a paradox

Doesn't that make it a meaningless criteria?

 

[Drunk on Kombucha]

In cases like that do you still believe suicide is "selfish"?

Eh ya know, it is a tough question. At the end of the day (pertaining to everything), people have gotta do what's best for them, though I suppose that pertains mainly to survival, and sometimes not doing something for someone else because you've gotta do what's best for you is seen as selfish but it is what it is and kind of just boils down to people casting judgement. But with suicide, I guess the only way I could say it wouldn't necessarily be totally selfish is if there was absolutely no one in that person's life who would be hurt or emotionally scarred by that action. Still, the action itself comes down to a perspective where no one outside of the deciding party is being considered.

So I guess basically what I'm trying to say is yes, ultimately it is always selfish, but there can be differing tones and connotations to that

 

[Skorpio]

Doesn't that make it a meaningless criteria?

I am interpreting the question as fundamentally absurd. That criteria being unanswerable is the crux of why I feel that way.

 

[Endlessknight]

Eh ya know, it is a tough question. At the end of the day (pertaining to everything), people have gotta do what's best for them, though I suppose that pertains mainly to survival, and sometimes not doing something for someone else because you've gotta do what's best for you is seen as selfish but it is what it is and kind of just boils down to people casting judgement. But with suicide, I guess the only way I could say it wouldn't necessarily be totally selfish is if there was absolutely no one in that person's life who would be hurt or emotionally scarred by that action. Still, the action itself comes down to a perspective where no one outside of the deciding party is being considered.

So I guess basically what I'm trying to say is yes, ultimately it is always selfish, but there can be differing tones and connotations to that

See I vehemently disagree. How much can you expect someone to suffer for others? And what if the person has no one, is it still selfish?

 

[Drunk on Kombucha]

See I vehemently disagree. How much can you expect someone to suffer for others? And what if the person has no one, is it still selfish?

Well, I suppose I was intentionally being a bit vague. I just don't want it to seem like I have or would ever condone suicide, it is an issue I'm sensitive to.

That said, I was trying to phrase selfish more with definition of a self centered act rather than a "you hurt me because you don't care about me" type definition, if that makes sense. As in, I was saying, in the case of someone with trigeminal neuralgia for example who suffers unbearably every day, yes, suicide would still be a selfish (i.e. self centered but not necessarily with the negative connotation by which selfishness is often accompanied) choice, but not necessarily a terrible thing like in other cases.

But I totally understand where you're coming from. Why should I be expected to continue enduring MY personal suffering when the only reason I do is because you don't want me to give up and it would hurt you if I did? I've felt that. For me personally, it was a matter of continuing to drag my head through the mud until finally the environment around me (i.e. the root of my suffering and depression) changed enough to where I no longer felt like I wasn't consciously choosing to live for me.

Basically, I understand why a person would see it as logical to commit suicide, I just think it is probably never the right choice, if not from a physical perspective than at least from a karmic perspective.

 

[plumbus-nine]

Ever since I tripped hard, I am afraid of that this here & now isn't everything, and that a suicide would just make things worse. Like in a game, level up, level down. Karma. The world's full of such stuff. Or ghosts. Imaginate you stay conscious while they burn your corpse. Fuck, I need a solution for not to die ... lol, once I was suicidal, now I'm afraid of the after death. And somehow I hope that it's not all over with my flesh degrading,

 

[Endlessknight]

Well, I suppose I was intentionally being a bit vague. I just don't want it to seem like I have or would ever condone suicide, it is an issue I'm sensitive to.

That said, I was trying to phrase selfish more with definition of a self centered act rather than a "you hurt me because you don't care about me" type definition, if that makes sense. As in, I was saying, in the case of someone with trigeminal neuralgia for example who suffers unbearably every day, yes, suicide would still be a selfish (i.e. self centered but not necessarily with the negative connotation by which selfishness is often accompanied) choice, but not necessarily a terrible thing like in other cases.

But I totally understand where you're coming from. Why should I be expected to continue enduring MY personal suffering when the only reason I do is because you don't want me to give up and it would hurt you if I did? I've felt that. For me personally, it was a matter of continuing to drag my head through the mud until finally the environment around me (i.e. the root of my suffering and depression) changed enough to where I no longer felt like I wasn't consciously choosing to live for me.

Basically, I understand why a person would see it as logical to commit suicide, I just think it is probably never the right choice, if not from a physical perspective than at least from a karmic perspective.

So for you suicide is always inherently a bad act? And would mind explaining what you mean by "karmic perspective?

 

[Endlessknight]

Ever since I tripped hard, I am afraid of that this here & now isn't everything, and that a suicide would just make things worse. Like in a game, level up, level down. Karma. The world's full of such stuff. Or ghosts. Imaginate you stay conscious while they burn your corpse. Fuck, I need a solution for not to die ... lol, once I was suicidal, now I'm afraid of the after death. And somehow I hope that it's not all over with my flesh degrading,

So for you fear of punishment in a afterlife makes suicide always a bad choice?