Welcome Would you speak up about sexist or misogynistic language in the SLR Forum?

[Jabberwocky]

And besides the mods of this forum, only one male has responded in this thread. The rest are females.

Well I’m glad a few women have replied and confirmed the whole premise for starting this thread. So people can see the Mods are not just being all suddenly woke for no reason.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

So far 2/3 of the votes in the poll are for “No Way. Get Fucked. Fuck Off” - so that’s the lay of the land at the moment. I guess people want their freedom to be obnoxious unrestricted.

I voted no. Would have preferred it if the get fucked / fuck off bit wasn't there. The way the options are laid out (ironically) is biased. The yes votes sound like reasonable and polite people. The only option to vote no reads like the voice of a total asshole... None of that is a big deal. I'd just like to point out that my behaviour isn't obnoxious because I voted no. Why start a poll and then criticize people who vote a certain way? Seems pretty baity to me.

Men are hard-wired to think in a way that isn't particularly PC.

a number of people have commented that the discussions seem to be dominated by masculine voices that can often be read as quite sexist or misogynistic. That is they discuss women as little more than something to be fucked or otherwise essentialise women in somewhat negative ways.

1) Dominated by masculine voices means nothing.

2) As for the objectification of men, there's plenty of women objectifying men on BL also. Objectification (in the correct context) is harmless. If you're objectifying your executive assistant, that's problematic... but talking openly and honestly about sexual drives is bound to result in some "objectifying" comments. Many of the threads on here are about primal sexual desires. I think it's important for there not to be a filter, whenever possible.

3) So, that leaves sexist and misogynistic. I'd have to see some examples of unacceptably sexist / misogynistic stuff that isn't moderated and understand why it isn't being moderated.

 

[Jabberwocky]

3) So, that leaves sexist and misogynistic. I'd have to see some examples of unacceptably sexist / misogynistic stuff that isn't moderated and understand why it isn't being moderated.

It’s not really that complicated. If you disagree with the premise that a lot of content in SLR is alienating women you are welcome to argue that point with the women who claim that it is.

We are not going to go digging into past threads and criticising anybody. Plenty of stuff has been well moderated in the past on a case by case basis and that material is now no longer visible (so we can’t use it as an example for you). You could however take a look at locked threads for a guide to where things have gone too far. The ‘What Kind of Pussy do Men Prefer’ thread being but the most recent example. If you don’t already know what normal people would consider unreasonably sexist or misogynistic language and you use such language inadvertently then a helpful mod or member will educate you as the need arises. Everyone gets the benefit of the doubt here.

The point is simply to flag that that a sufficiently large amount of the discussion in this Forum makes it a place where female members feel very uncomfortable. For all we know all the male members were completely unaware of this and thought they were being funny or edgy or that BL is akin to a locker room. Moving forward we would like all members to consider whether their language is likely to upset or alienate a reasonable female member and to moderate themselves accordingly or even better pull their friends into line if they go too far. We would prefer self-policing rather than active moderation wherever possible.

Clearly there is an issue because a number of women have flagged that there is and asked that something be done about it. I think women are the best judge of what is offensive to women and we should take their complaints or concerns seriously. However, we are not at the Country Club here either so there needs to be a bit of give and take on both sides regarding what is acceptable.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

This thread is anti-male. As a male, I assume that I am the best judge of what is offensive to men?

I think we can moderate our language a bit so more women feel comfortable in the Forum.

At the expense of who?

 

[Jabberwocky]

This thread is anti-male. As a male, I assume that I am the best judge of what is offensive to men?

I don’t know about you personally but if I wanted to know what was offensive to men I’d certainly canvas only the opinion of men. Then I’d expect women to take that information seriously. Obviously the converse applies also.

You seem to be looking for a grievance where there is very little grounds for one and I’m disinclined to get into a lengthy argument about it. But I’ll lay out really simply where we are at:

1. A significant number of women have argued that SLR is not a welcoming place for women.

2. We are accepting that claim at face value because benefit of the doubt is our starting point always

3. We are inviting all participants in this forum to consider, and where appropriate, moderate their language if it likely to be unreasonably offensive to women

4. We are asking all members to extend posters the benefit of the doubt when they encounter language they find offensive and where possible to explain why it might be considered offensive

5. Where content is reported and the report is deemed reasonable, the moderators will begin a lengthy process that begins with explaining to the OP what the issue is with their language and politely asking them to adjust it.

6. If nobody posts offensive comments and nobody reports offensive comments then there will be nothing to be done and we can all enjoy the conversation.
Please feel free to point out the bit where this is ‘anti-male’.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

I don't want to get into a long argument either.

Not looking for a grievance. Just sick and tired of being told forever that men need to act more like women. Society is teaching kids that maleness is wrong with terms like "male toxicity" and one-sided arguments about gender. The same thing (to some extent) occurs with race.

You say a significant number of women have said this place is sexist. Fair enough. That should be investigated. But, baiting people with a poll and then saying they voted one way so they can continue to be "obnoxious" is (honestly) bordering on ad hominem.

Some women would struggle at my local pub. The Queen of England certainly would have a rough time... but that's not simply because she has a vagina. I know lots of women that aren't threatened by male mentalities and are quite comfortable being themselves and speaking their mind in any context.

Men don't have to stop being men, so women can be women.

I said I'd have to see some examples (I don't expect you to find them for me) because I'm not sure the kind of thing we're talking about here. If moderators are doing their job, non-staff shouldn't be required to moderate others behaviour.

Are men saying stuff like: "All women are bitches." or "Women should stay in the kitchen?"... or what?

I'm not trying to be cute here. I genuinely don't know what these horribly sexist comments are. I haven't seen them. Without bothering to cycle through threads and find examples of unmoderated sexist behaviour, you could just paraphrase the kind of thing you mean.

It's impossible to totally avoid anything that might be offensive to anyone, considering how much of a snowflake everyone is these days.

 

[Jabberwocky]

You say a significant number of women have said this place is sexist. Fair enough. That should be investigated. But, baiting people with a poll and then saying they voted one way so they can continue to be "obnoxious" is (honestly) bordering on ad hominem.

You make a very reasonable point about the Poll. I hadn’t thought of it that way. Based on your feedback I’ve changed it to a simple Yes/No Poll and allowed people to change their vote if they wish.

Men don't have to stop being men, so women can be women.

There’s good men and bad man, there’s rude men and polite men, there’s assertive men and submissive men, there’s happy men and there’s angry men. “Maleness’ is not a singularity that only comes in one form. Some long tolerated male behaviour is abhorrent. The times they are a changing on that score. But here all we are asking for is politeness. Do you not think being polite is a desirable male virtue?

 

[birdup.snaildown]

There’s good men and bad man, there’s rude men and polite men, there’s assertive men and submissive men, there’s happy men and there’s angry men. “Maleness’ is not a singularity that only comes in one form. Some long tolerated male behaviour is abhorrent. The times they are a changing on that score.

Again, I'm not sure what you're talking about. I'll refer to your single example. I didn't see a problem with the What Type of Pussy Do Men Prefer thread. I've encountered a LOT of online discussions about what type of dicks women prefer in the past, on various forums... and IRL I've taken part in a lot of frank conversations were women talk about the dick size they prefer. I've known many women who are quite happy to talk about how they like big dicks. This (dick sizing stuff) is more offensive than what type of dick do you like. But I'm not going to shut down conversations because I have an average sized penis. I'm happy for size queens to make comments about how they need seven/eight inches to satisfy them. If they call me a pin dick little cunt, that's something that needs to be moderated... because it's personal. But if they're just making honest unfiltered comments about their preferences, that's totally fine.

Is the problem the nature of this discussion (ie. the existence of the pussy type preference thread) or the tone of certain contributors comments?

But here all we are asking for is politeness. Do you not think being polite is a desirable male virtue?

I don't think of politeness as gendered. Do I think men should be polite? Of course. I think women should be polite too. I don't see men as less polite than women generally... and the suggestion that one gender is less polite than the other is sexist. I'm not fond of generalizing gender/race.

As far as politeness goes, I don't think the obnoxious comment you made is polite and I don't think the way you constructed the thread was polite either. In a couple of days, in separate threads, you've called me: racist, sexist and obnoxious. I'm not going to report it. I don't care. I'm just saying - if you want to talk about politeness - it probably makes sense to look in both directions.

I appreciate you fixing the poll and apologizing for the racist stuff.

There is no bad blood, here.

Just talking.

 

[electronDegenerate]

I agree with the freedom to express your views however obnoxious they are.
I think discussion about things should happen and if someone is being obnoxious then that is all the more reason for concepts to be discussed.
I also believe in the repercussions of being obnoxious. I like knowing up front when someone is a dick.
It is unfortunate though that the misogyny is so rampant as to run people out of the forum.
I'm not creative enough to come up with a solution to that that isn't some form of censorship...

 

[Jabberwocky]

There is no bad blood, here.

Just talking.

It’s good to talk stuff through. We can all learn stuff. I find responding to your comments in this and other threads helps sharpen my thinking on different things. So that’s good.

To wind this particular conversation up I would just like to query whether you have attempted to consider things from the perspective of the women who have complained about sexism and misogyny in SLR? Do you acknowledge that they should be listened to and their concerns taken seriously?

I agree with the freedom to express your views however obnoxious they are.

Unfortunately the privately owned and operated Bluelight disagrees with you there, although it does its best to keep the boundaries of what is acceptable as wide as possible and to maximise the degree of freedom available for members to express themselves.

I’d remind everyone that throughout this thread the message has been we would like members to monitor themselves and their peers in order that mods do not need to get involved except as a last resort.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

To wind this particular conversation up I would just like to query whether you have attempted to consider things from the perspective of the women who have complained about sexism and misogyny in SLR? Do you acknowledge that they should be listened to and their concerns taken seriously?

I've already responded to that.

You say a significant number of women have said this place is sexist. Fair enough. That should be investigated.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I've already responded to that.

Sorry. So you did. My mistake. I’m pretty high.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@Atelier3

You're not really clearing up what I'm confused about here. Should the Preferred Pussy Type thread not be made? If so, where does it say that in the BLUA? What specifically is the problem with starting that thread? I'm confused.

If you'd like to avoid these questions (and others) that's up to you, but I don't see the point of starting a thread about this if you don't want to have a discussion.

 

[electronDegenerate]

I mean to agree with you.
I think what I meant to say is people should deal with the consequences of what they post. If they need to be run off for being obnoxious then so be it.

 

[Jabberwocky]

@Atelier3

You're not really clearing up what I'm confused about here. Should the Preferred Pussy Type thread not be made? If so, where does it say that in the BLUA? What specifically is the problem with starting that thread? I'm confused.

If you'd like to avoid these questions (and others) that's up to you, but I don't see the point of starting a thread about this if you don't want to have a discussion.

No problem with starting the thread. I think, by way of an example, that ‘pussy’ is not an offensively sexist or misogynistic term. Most women I know use that word to refer to their own parts. Dig into that thread there were a number of posts that were problematic. Some were reported, some edited, some deleted, but in the end it was decided the thread had gone too far and was not producing a productive conversation. I’m not going to single out individual posts as examples because we want to start with a clean slate and move forward cooperatively and productively. That is, on the assumption that nobody intended to be offensive, misogynistic, or sexist.

Really all we are talking about is an issue of calibration that hopefully all the members who spend time in SLR will participate in on an ongoing basis. All we need to do is see if anything arises in the future that people find problematic. Then as a community we can discuss whether it is in fact outside the bounds of what is reasonable for SLR. I emphasise that this not the hand of law coming down. It’s an invitation for everyone to help make SLR equally welcome to women as it clearly is to men.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@Atelier3

I went through the last two pages of that thread and couldn't find examples of stuff that was sexist, but they probably got edited out. The thread went way off topic. I liked the first couple of pages, because it's an unusual discussion that I don't see very often. We don't talk about vaginas as much we should. I was gonna post on it about clit sizes, but then I discovered it had been closed.

I've encountered a lot of anti-male stuff on SLR. I think men are far less likely to bother saying they feel unwelcome or are offended by A/B/C because it's not really taken seriously. That doesn't mean that we feel totally welcome. This thread certainly doesn't make me feel welcome, because I'm not 100% sure now what I'm supposed to do and what I'm not supposed to do. I should be able to just be myself.

It seems like women can just be themselves, but men have to edit themselves in real time (which is exhausting). I'm not talking about you, here, specifically. I think the problem is that men are (maybe) naturally more offensive than women. Perhaps this has to do with hormonal stuff. Maybe not. It could be entirely socially constructed. Either way, it's stressful not being yourself. I think a lot of the time men don't mean to be sexist or misogynistic. I don't think there is any offence intended.

I don't know.

I think we've pretty much exhausted this back-and-forth now.

 

[Jabberwocky]

It’s been a good discussion. Thankyou @birdup.snaildown

 

[Sirena Oscura]

That’s interesting, I didn’t realise birdup was a misogynist. The more you know!

 

[birdup.snaildown]

I'm not a misogynist.

 

[Jabberwocky]

That’s interesting, I didn’t realise birdup was a misogynist. The more you know!

Let’s not get into labelling anyone anything. It’s what people write that we want to address. And labelling people is one of those things we want less of.