Why would you fear death?

[AutoTripper]

Just imagine, if it wasn’t legally permitted to have our beloved pets put to sleep when the time comes. What they, we might have to go through on top of the whole affair anyway.

Plus, pets have NO say in it.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@AutoTripper

I don't know about your comparison. Should non-verbal people with severe disabilities be put down? Consent is important, even with animals. Most of the time animals are put down because they become a burden to their owner. I'm not convinced it is a humane thing most of the time, nor am I convinced that nature is incomplete somehow and requires human medical intervention.

I'm not sure where I stand on euthanasia. I feel like - a lot of the time - there's a mental health aspect that doesn't get the attention it perhaps deserves. I guess my thoughts on euthanasia are similar to abortion. It must exist, but access should be limited... There was one case I read about where a teenage girl underwent euthanasia for mental health issues.

Most people who've been through a period of suicidal ideation are glad they didn't kill themselves. I know I am glad I'm still here.

I feel like I can take anything that life throws at me. My only concern is being a burden on my family, but that is something that also comes up in the disability sector... and we don't euthanise severely autistic people, for example. If we did, it would be for us not them.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

There was one case I read about where a teenage girl underwent euthanasia for mental health issues.

'I am drained': Teenage girl raped as a child dies after seeking euthanasia

She said her life had become 'unbearable' after suffering from PTSD and depression following the sexual assault.

au.news.yahoo.com

Turns out she was turned down for euthanasia, so she killed herself.

 

[MsDiz]

'I am drained': Teenage girl raped as a child dies after seeking euthanasia

She said her life had become 'unbearable' after suffering from PTSD and depression following the sexual assault.

au.news.yahoo.com

Turns out she was turned down for euthanasia, so she killed herself.

Surprised she tolerated an NG tube. I’ve said for a long time that some depression is terminal. I feel awful she suffered for as long as she did. I’ve known girls who’ve been raped as children who literally starved themselves to death and that is not easy.

 

[Sky God]

The fear of the unknown.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

I’ve said for a long time that some depression is terminal.

Perhaps you're right, but that doesn't mean we should start euthanizing teenagers. (Not suggesting that's what you're implying we should do. Just saying.)

I’ve known girls who’ve been raped as children who literally starved themselves to death and that is not easy.

Suicide can be quick and painless. Starving yourself to death strikes me as one of the most difficult ways you could possibly do it. If I was going to kill myself, I would jump off a sufficiently high bridge/cliff to ensure no possibility of survival. Quick. Simple. Relatively painless. I would (honestly) rather do this than go through euthanasia procedures. People who are physically capable of suicide but chose to have a medical professional kill them confuse me. Some people fly halfway across the world to be euthanized. Do they eat peanuts on the flight? Do they bother showering that day? I don't know. It just seems odd to me.

 

[JessFR]

'I am drained': Teenage girl raped as a child dies after seeking euthanasia

She said her life had become 'unbearable' after suffering from PTSD and depression following the sexual assault.

au.news.yahoo.com

Turns out she was turned down for euthanasia, so she killed herself.

As sad as that story is, I can't say I blame them for denying her request.

I was suicidally depressed for a long time. It always seem permanent, and at the time I had no reason to think it would ever get any better.

And this was seriously hard core depression, so bad it often physically hurts, when I was younger, before I found drugs, my coping mechanism was self harm and cutting myself.

I can understand why someone in that situation would seek euthanasia. But depression can in fact get better. It's not like some other conditions where there's no realistic chance at all.

I could never accept euthanizing people because of depression when they're only a teenager. Maybe if they were in their 80s but that's simply too young.

As for fear of death, one thing that was actually somewhat comforting about being that depressed is I had no fear of death at all. It was only when I started getting better that I started having any fear of death.

People who are physically capable of suicide but chose to have a medical professional kill them confuse me. Some people fly halfway across the world to be euthanized. Do they eat peanuts on the flight? Do they bother showering that day? I don't know. It just seems odd to me.

Killing yourself is not easy. Taking actions that are self destructive are easy, but actively.. Knowingly, taking that final step, even when you're so depressed every waking moment is painful, it's still very hard to take that last step.

So I can completely understand why people try and work towards suicide rather than just doing it. It makes it easier.

Even when I was suicidally depressed, I didn't actually have my suicide attempt until something really set me off and it was more of an impulse decision. But I frequently made choices that put my life or health at risk that I wouldn't have made if I had valued my life.

In many ways its just easier to take lots of small steps than one big one.

 

[MsDiz]

Suicide can be quick and painless. Starving yourself to death strikes me as one of the most difficult ways you could possibly do it. If I was going to kill myself, I would jump off a sufficiently high bridge/cliff to ensure no possibility of survival. Quick. Simple. Relatively painless. I would (honestly) rather do this than go through euthanasia procedures. People who are physically capable of suicide but chose to have a medical professional kill them confuse me. Some people fly halfway across the world to be euthanized. Do they eat peanuts on the flight? Do they bother showering that day? I don't know. It just seems odd to me.

There’s a lot of self hatred with that type of anorexia. The need to punish oneself, they blame themselves for being raped basically. Of course this is ridiculous. It’s a very protracted death as at clinics you’re force fed when you get too low. Of course there are ways to get around this as all good anorexics know. It does draw it out though.

As for people flying to get euthanised. I think it’s more for the family isn’t it? The time together. It’s important for a lot of people it would seem.

I think I would disable my my parachute if I was gonna kill myself. I’d enjoy the flight down.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@JessFR

You're probably right about that final step. I've only ever experienced significant suicidal ideation during withdrawals, so I'm approaching the discussion from a detached logical perspective. I can imagine it would be very difficult to drive to a cliff and walk to the edge and jump... but I would think it would be more difficult to book yourself into a clinic in Sweden and fly halfway across the world and get a taxi to your appointment, etc.

The whole thing is very alien to me. It is extremely unlikely I will ever kill myself.

As far as depression goes, teenage is definitely too young... but (honestly) any age is too young to be deemed "no possibility of curable". Have they had ayahuasca? Have they lived in a monastery? Have they totally removed themselves from friends and family and tried rebooting in another country?

Maybe I'm an idealist, but I like to think there was some way to save that girl.

As for people flying to get euthanised. I think it’s more for the family isn’t it? The time together. It’s important for a lot of people it would seem.

I don't understand this. What time together?

Hunter S Thompson blew his head off with a shotgun. His kids were upstairs. Obviously this is worse for the family. Euthanasia is less traumatic. I get that. But how is it less traumatic for him to kill himself in the wilderness than it is to kill himself in a clinic?

 

[JessFR]

@JessFR

You're probably right about that final step. I've only ever experienced significant suicidal ideation during withdrawals, so I'm approaching the discussion from a detached logical perspective. I can imagine it would be very difficult to drive to a cliff and walk to the edge and jump... but I would think it would be more difficult to book yourself into a clinic in Sweden and fly halfway across the world and get a taxi to your appointment, etc.

But the thing is none of those decisions end your life. There's also a sense of relief that can come with taking steps to finally end your suffering, but which aren't actually that final step which you can't fake back.

The whole thing is very alien to me. It is extremely unlikely I will ever kill myself.

As far as depression goes, teenage is definitely too young... but (honestly) any age is too young to be deemed "no possibility of curable". Have they had ayahuasca? Have they lived in a monastery? Have they totally removed themselves from friends and family and tried rebooting in another country?

Maybe I'm an idealist, but I like to think there was some way to save that girl.

With depression in young people I agree, it's likely almost never going to be so certain as to justify euthanasia.

What frustrates me is it often feels like the system doesn't provide nearly enough options to help people with depression. I wouldn't say I got any serious help until after I tried to kill myself. Then I was hospitalized and in various ways that did help a lot more than years of weekly therapy and ssri's had.

But it shouldn't take until after you try and kill yourself to get that help.

 

[MsDiz]

I don't understand this. What time together?

Hunter S Thompson blew his head off with a shotgun. His kids were upstairs. Obviously this is worse for the family. Euthanasia is less traumatic. I get that. But how is it less traumatic for him to kill himself in the wilderness than it is to kill himself in a clinic?

Well, having a date and knowing when a loved one is going to die gives people a chance to say goodbye and say things they need to I guess. When someone is going to Dignitas for example they are usually suffering from a pretty horrid condition and family probably feel a bit of relief for their loved one. Seeing someone you love go through a drawn out death is not pretty as @Xorkoth has mentioned.

I have also watched my granny die a very long drawn out death, in the end she survived 3 weeks on nothing but saline and pain meds. I had to ask them to withdraw the saline and up the meds. Even then she survived another week. She had the strongest heart I’ve ever come across. She had senile dementia and wouldn’t have been able to consent to be euthanised but I had many years of wishing she wasn’t suffering anymore.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@MsDiz

...but Hunter could have set a date to go out into the wilderness and wrestle a bear (or whatever).

But the thing is none of those decisions end your life. There's also a sense of relief that can come with taking steps to finally end your suffering, but which aren't actually that final step which you can't fake back.

Yes, well said. That makes a lot of sense.

 

[MsDiz]

but Hunter could have set a date to go out into the wilderness and wrestle a bear (or whatever

His method of suicide was clearly impulsive. I don’t think anyone would want their loved one dealing with that but someone who’s suicidal isn’t thinking very clearly obviously.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Hunter is just an example, but he was very sick.

someone who’s suicidal isn’t thinking very clearly obviously.

Hunter wanted to die for some time before he killed himself for the same reasons people get euthanasia. Honestly, I think he shot himself because of selfishness rather than impulsivity.

I'm not convinced he wasn't thinking clearly for wanting to die. As for traumatizing his whole family, I could never do that. He had a lot of health problems, but I don't think he was suffering sufficiently to justify his children finding his brains on the wallpaper.

 

[MsDiz]

Hunter is just an example, but he was very sick.



Hunter wanted to die for some time before he killed himself for the same reasons people get euthanasia. Honestly, I think he shot himself because of selfishness rather than impulsivity.

I'm not convinced he wasn't thinking clearly for wanting to die. As for traumatizing his whole family, I could never do that. He had a lot of health problems, but I don't think he was suffering sufficiently to justify his children finding his brains on the wallpaper.

Well, we can’t exactly ask these people who decide to die in such ways what exactly they were thinking. It certainly wasn’t sanity though.

 

[JessFR]

There are sane reasons to wish to kill yourself.

I would say that depression, by definition, is not one.

Made all the more difficult by the fact that depression is a disease whos symptoms include not having an accurate perception of the world around you and yourself as part of it, instead seeing it all as worse than it actually is. While at the same time believing that this impression is completely sane, rational, and indisputable.

 

[Sky God]

A teenager should never be allowed to choose euthanasia . Depression is a god awful condition and as a teenager i thought of it(suicide)often. But now as an adult I am happy I never acted on it. Life has been hard but there has been beautiful years that I would have missed. It would have destroyed my parents.

I think an adult suffering with depression should be allowed to make their choice and die in a peaceful setting instead of a painful self inflicted way . I strongly believe we should have total control over our lives be it drug use to ending it.

I do find it a selfish act though (unless you're physically suffering) because I had someone close choose death (ptsd)and so many lives were destroyed because of it. It is the main reason I started using .

 

[AutoTripper]

@AutoTripper

I don't know about your comparison. Should non-verbal people with severe disabilities be put down? Consent is important, even with animals. Most of the time animals are put down because they become a burden to their owner. I'm not convinced it is a humane thing most of the time, nor am I convinced that nature is incomplete somehow and requires human medical intervention.

I'm not sure where I stand on euthanasia. I feel like - a lot of the time - there's a mental health aspect that doesn't get the attention it perhaps deserves. I guess my thoughts on euthanasia are similar to abortion. It must exist, but access should be limited... There was one case I read about where a teenage girl underwent euthanasia for mental health issues.

Most people who've been through a period of suicidal ideation are glad they didn't kill themselves. I know I am glad I'm still here.

I feel like I can take anything that life throws at me. My only concern is being a burden on my family, but that is something that also comes up in the disability sector... and we don't euthanise severely autistic people, for example. If we did, it would be for us not them.

My imaginary vision of potential euthanasia, has always I realised included a. Very sophisticated screening process, really exploring the individuals reasons, needs, challenges, potential opportunities regarding therapies and lifestryle changes.

I wasn’t actually referencing to mute, incommunicable people who cannot express their feelings and desires. In my future society though, we will all have learnt to communicate telepathically as I know we have it within us to do, or at least to lean to do, so that barrier could be eliminated even.

The point about the animals being put down, is when they’re have reached a point of no life, no prospects of any single day getting any easier for them, or their owners. Just prolonged sufffering and pain.

In such cases, rather than saying...no you have to just watch your dog slowly waste away to bone in anguish til the bitter end, as there is no possible prognosis for any improvement, we can ease their passing now. For a fucking fee lol! Pay to die!

So I’m speaking in reference not to people with serious mental health difficultitiesnwhere they are not in their right mind due to life’s unresolved traumas, and desperate for a way out.

I would hope in future more advanced, effective mental health support, therapy, treatment could be offered in such cases.

But there are others, terminally ill, in unbearable pain, increasing daily, weaker and weaker, severely anxious about the mess of their life’s fragments around them, pressure and strain on their families, the fear, uncertainty, guilt too, over their ever impending slow, painful death.

Like my uncle died 2019 from stomach and lung tumors. He had zero chance of beating it, caught so late, escalated so quickly. He suffered horrendously. My Aunty had to care for him to the bitter END.

Lots of people live truly insufferable lives. The “braver”(?) ones take suicide. I’m not that brave myself, although I could resolve to fast or even quicker, dehydrate to my end if I really couldn’t go on with the increasingly painful fight in life.

So I’m not saying, right, euthanasia.com just make an account and it should be all good.

And I certainly did not mean to imply people incommunicable could have the decision simply made for them like the 14 year old Greyhound whose back legs have given way, in too much general injury pain to bear. So maybe you misunderstood my point there slightly?

I think the topic is worthy of explanation, but I’m not at all proposing a turn up, sign in and die clinic at all.

If I made those comments last night (?), it’s stupidly foggy, I was on one serious acid trip. I plugged 600 ug, smacked me to space with really strong weed and kava. I’ve never tripped nearly so hard on 600 ug oral, it just kept coming on in waves and waves, I need to lay off acid. About 120 tabs now since February.

Just making kava now to feel less crazy as I do currently next day after my heavy trips.

 

[AutoTripper]

and we don't euthanise severely autistic people

I wouldn’t actually call that euthanasia, but genocide. Speak to Bill Gates about that. I expect he has several “concoctions” which could selectively achieve that purpose.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

I wasn’t actually referencing to mute, incommunicable people who cannot express their feelings and desires.

You were talking about domesticated animals and how horrible it would be if we couldn't euthanize them, despite the fact that they cannot consent. Non-verbal (and otherwise incommunicable people) are the human equivalent. The question is: do we euthanize people - without consent - for any reason? You just said doing so is genocide. Try and connect the dots. Euthanizing people or animals without consent because we decide they have no quality of life and would be better of dead is problematic.

Lots of people live truly insufferable lives. The “braver”(?) ones take suicide.

Disagree.

So I’m not saying, right, euthanasia.com just make an account and it should be all good.

And I certainly did not mean to imply people incommunicable could have the decision simply made for them like the 14 year old Greyhound whose back legs have given way, in too much general injury pain to bear. So maybe you misunderstood my point there slightly?

No, I didn't misunderstand you. You're making assumptions about where I'm coming from. Of course you're not advocating for unregulated euthanasia. I never said any such thing.

I also don't think you were saying disabled people should be euthanized - I rightly assumed the opposite - because, as you acknowledged: killing people is wrong. I'm just pointing out that you are being inconsistent with humans/animals. Perhaps you believe that inconsistency is just because animals are not people. Fair enough. I'm just having a discussion with you.

I need to lay off acid. About 120 tabs now since February.

Yes. I agree. I think you need to lay off the acid for a while. Just before I read that sentence, it was fresh in my head already. You keep detailing the extraordinary amount of psychedelic drugs you're consuming. Everything in moderation. LSD provides more useful revelations if you don't abuse it. This is coming from somebody who has abused it and other psychs for decades. Eventually, you will destroy any value they have...