Why shouldn't I get the swine flu vaccine?

[bogdan_nad]

In my country is a powerful current for not taking this vaccine, from what I understand it contain a large amount of mercury, and this will create a lots of healthy problem in future?

Could be this real? Nor is only a myth?

thanks

 

[Transcendence]

The injectable form of the vaccine contains thimerosal, which is converted into ethyl mercury in the body. It is not a large amount of mercury, but a very, very small amount. Furthermore, ethyl mercury has not been shown to be a significant health risk like methyl mercury is. If you ever eat freshwater fish or canned tuna then you have consumed a far larger quantity of methyl mercury, which by all accounts is more dangerous than the ethyl mercury in the vaccine.

You can normally request a thimerosal-free vaccine, but it will be difficult considering that the novel h1n1 vaccine is in very short supply.

 

[Sentience]

While I dont think the vaccine is that dangerous, and if you choose to get it so that you dont miss a week of work I dont think the vaccine ruin you. I also dont believe its the mark of the beast or a plot to make humanity sterile. I think that a lot of people will be spared the inconvenience of catching a fairly serious flu with maybe some local site reactions and mild flu like symptoms from the immune response....that will be the most common response anyway.

However, I think that the opposite camp has been blowing up fear of the swine flu every bit as much as people are blowing up fear of the vaccine. Yeah, the vaccine isnt that dangerous but the flu isnt that dangerous either unless you are in a high risk demographic in which case it can easily become life threatening. The immune compromised or people with asthma are people who are more likely to die from the infection. Old people are also at risk, but anyone over 33 can have cross immunity from previous outbreaks of swine flu so less old people are getting it.

The people who are at risk for cytokine storm, the one likely way H1N1 can kill you if you are in the healthy demographic, you can also get this reaction from the vaccine. It is suspected but not yet proven that people who have this reaction are genetically susceptible and will get the reaction whether exposure comes via vaccination or from the flu itself. Generally they will get it worse if they catch the flu, but then its more likely to happen overall after considering that you will definitely get that reaction if you are susceptible to it from the vaccine whereas there is a chance you would not have gotten the swine flu.

We dont know the risk statistics for this particular vaccine yet. However, if the risk statistics were similar to the 76 vaccine and every American was subject to mandatory vaccinations, then so far 5x as many people would have been harmed/killed by the vaccine than by virus itself due to simple math from the volume of infected vs the volume vaccinated.

These bad reactions are so rare that its not worth worrying about, and the risk is there whether exposure comes from the vaccine or from the virus itself, so it should really be a personal decision and people should not be criticized either way.


The one thing I am in fact concerned about is the use of Squalene. Most people seem to tolerate it just fine. However, I believe it may be contraindicated in people with auto-immune diseases. I happen to suffer from auto-immune conditions and do not want my immune system stimulated so they can save money on the vaccine by giving me less. A lot of Americans have auto-immune conditions, and while it might not trigger a separate event a lot of people may notice a major flare of their symptoms around the time they are exposed to the immune stimulant. I think we should oppose the use of this additive in the US.

 

[underground_troll]

I'm a 21 year old female. I live in a town of 5000, where there have been 300 or so reported cases of h1n1. I work in a cafe and deal with people and germs all the time. I'm not going to get the vaccine because I don't want questionable things injected into my body, and because I'm not scared of getting swine flu. Don't put any energy into FEAR. Just don't even worry about it! Forget it! You're not gonna get sick, fuck swine flu!

 

[Transcendence]

I'm a 21 year old female. I live in a town of 5000, where there have been 300 or so reported cases of h1n1. I work in a cafe and deal with people and germs all the time. I'm not going to get the vaccine because I don't want questionable things injected into my body, and because I'm not scared of getting swine flu. Don't put any energy into FEAR. Just don't even worry about it! Forget it! You're not gonna get sick, fuck swine flu!

That's a cute approach. Unfortunately, blinding your eyes, plugging your ears, and shouting "nananana I can't hear you" doesn't work against viruses.

This is about 20 miles past bordering on ludicrous. You regularly consume psychedelic drugs including RCs like 2C-E which have had NO human trials or any safety related research done on them at all, and then turn around and say that you won't be getting the vaccine because you don't want to ingest anything "questionable"?

Amazing.

And BTW, those of us who got vaccinated aren't the ones who have to concern ourselves with putting energy into fear.

 

[underground_troll]

There are a number of reasons why I trust certain psychedelic substances above vaccines, which judging by your post above, you won't even begin to understand. So, all I'll say is do what you gotta do. Get vaccinated if it makes you feel better. I honestly feel better not getting vaccinated, so I won't. I trust my good ole' immune system to get me by.

 

[Transcendence]

That's a cop out. If you have a logical rationale then people will understand. If most people don't understand, then the problem probably lies with your rationale and not with the people reading it. So please, elaborate. I assure you that I am very familiar with exotic psychedelic compounds, and have used experimental psychedelic tryptamines and phenethylamines many times.

I'm not criticizing you for experimenting with rare psychedelics or for not getting the vaccine. Both of those are personal decisions that everyone has the right to make as long as they fully understand the risks. What I am criticizing is the hypocrisy of binging on psychedelics, dissociatives, entactogens, stimulants, and god knows what else within the course of a weekend and then turning around and declaring that you don't like to put "questionable things into my body".

I do not understand is why you believe that using these untested drugs or "snorting piles of mdma mixed with ketamine" is less risky than getting a vaccination. Perhaps if a side effect of the vaccine was euphoric hallucinations you would have a different stance.

 

[Sentience]

"Transcendence", while its true that some* of the people who resist vaccines do so for unscientific or unproven reasons based on fear, I feel like you are taking the opposite extreme.

The H1N1 flu is NOT that dangerous. Yes it sucks if you catch it, but its mostly people with asthma or the immune compromised who will see a life threatening event, and the people who are prone to cytokine storm can also get that reaction from the vaccine.

You are fear mongering. Please stop. Getting the flu is no big deal. The H1N1 flu is turning out to be less dangerous than the regular flu. If she gets the flu it probably wont be the end of the world. The odds are good she wont even get it and even if she does she will probably get through it just fine. If she gets vaccinated she will probably still be fine as well, but if she feels more comfortable with her own intuitive decision then you should just let her be.

There is no "hypocrisy" in trusting psychedelics more than untested flu vaccines. Nobody has ever gotten Guillian Bar Syndrome or Cytokine storm from LSD. They have gotten it however from the swine flu vaccine. You can argue that its in her best interest to get it (debatable, since the risk at the current rate of infection is actually LOWER than the risk that was associated with the 76 vaccine), but there is nothing hypocritical about feeling comfortable with one drug but not another. Its apples and oranges. Your argument is a non sequitur.

 

[Transcendence]

"Sentience", I often get the feeling that you skim over others' posts and make a conclusion about their position based on your preexisting assumptions about their beliefs instead of the actual content of the posts. Why? Because I have said the exact same thing you are saying time and time again in this thread and yet you continue to act as if our positions are at odds with one another.

While it is true that many of the staunchest defenders of the vaccine are guilty of scaremongering by blowing the threat of the swine flu out of proportion, you err in grouping me with the rest of them. I have not once exaggerated the risk of swine flu. I do not believe that the swine flu will end up killing many more than the seasonal flu. I have already said in this thread that the risk of death from swine flu is not high and people should be vaccinated simply to prevent them from getting sick. I don't understand why people think that they need any other reason to get vaccinated.

My posts are defending the vaccine; they are not exaggerating the danger of the swine flu. I don't think that exaggerating the severity of novel H1N1 should be necessary to convince people to protect themselves from it. I also get the seasonal flu vaccine every year, and would strongly defend it as well. I don't get the seasonal flu vaccine every year because I think I'm going to die from flu, I get the vaccine to prevent myself from getting sick and to prevent myself from spreading infectious disease to people I care about.

You are right that there is no hypocrisy in feeling comfortable with one drug over another. What is hypocritical is saying that you don't ingest any questionable substances when you binge on untested novelty chemicals and impure street drugs. LSD has nothing to do with this, I am explicitly referring to other compounds and you are twisting my words. And as a side, why don't you let U_T speak for herself? She's a big girl; I'm sure she can handle it.

 

[Sentience]

It just seems like you are a little too 'in your face' about peoples decision not to get the vaccine. You were mocking her in your previous post for her decision. It seems a little unnecessary. The H1N1 flu isnt only not killing more than the regular flu, its killing a lot less in total as well as per capita. Its less dangerous than catching the regular flu, but this vaccination hysteria didnt exist until this new flu started. People were not acting like this before the media started blowing fear of the swine flu way out of proportion.


If you see somebody using pseudo-science to argue against getting the vaccine, by all means tear them a new one. If somebody makes no claims but just says they feel more comfortable not getting it or say they feel it is unnecessary, then there is really no reason to be mocking them.

 

[Transcendence]

As I said in my second response to underground_troll, I was not criticizing her for refusing to be vaccinated. You and I both agree that it should be a personal choice. What I was criticizing was her reason not to get it.

It is frustrating to me when I hear people reject the vaccination because it "has not been tested enough", because these people don't seem to realize that they ingest thousands of chemicals everyday that have not had nearly the amount of testing that H1N1 vaccine has. This absurdity is magnified when it is relayed by someone who recreationally consumes untested chemicals that have not only never had human studies performed, but have never been in common use period and have only been used at all for a few years. H1N1 flu vaccines have been around since the 40's and have been in common use since the 60's.

I would not think of mocking somebody simply because they feel uncomfortable with the vaccine. I don't think they should be required to give a reason why. But when they do give a reason, and that rationale is baseless and absurd, I don't think it's over the line to call it out. I took issue with what underground_troll said because she implied that the vaccine was inherently riskier than binging on ketamine and mdma, and consuming RCs.

If I somehow misinterpreted what she said, I apologize.

 

[Sentience]

It just seemed like a bit much with the NaNaNa comment.

Yeah, we do ingest a lot of untested chemicals, and some of these do in fact turn out to be harmful. You also have a point that someone who swallows untested MDMA pills on a bi-weekly basis is taking a much more significant risk compared to the 1 in 100,000 risk for Guillian Barr that we saw back in 76. Also, many medications that people take are riskier than the vaccine, even when used as directed.

Personally, I dont take a lot of untested random pills or drugs these days. I suffer from a serious auto-immune condition and I cant afford to take chances like I could when I was younger. Mostly I just smoke weed, use natural psychedelics like mescaline, prescription pills as directed for pain and maybe some natural opiates recreationally and so I can sleep through the night. However, one of the medications I might have to take if the next treatment fails is about 1000 times riskier than the 76 vaccine.....so yeah, we all take risks. Sometimes those risks are worth it.

Due to my auto-immunity and immune modulating therapies I am high risk for adverse immune reactions which is why I pass on most vaccinations. I think my concern is a little more justified compared to a lot of the people who are scared based on exaggerated concerns over possible side effects. There are risks from the vaccine. The flu is generally a lot riskier but the risk benefit scale tips according to how systemic the virus is. If 1/3 of the population is exposed, the scale tips towards getting vaccinated. If 5% get infected, the scale might tip towards not getting it unless its just to avoid missing work and being uncomfortable.

Anyway, it seems like we are reaching an understanding. No hard feelings.

 

[underground_troll]

wow, all this fuss over lil' ole me!

I trust the things I put into my body in the quantities I do, drugs and otherwise. This trust is based on my own personal research and reading I have done on the things I choose to consume. I also don't feel the need to justify my use of psychedelics to anyone. I know who I am, I know where I'm at, and I feel totally safe putting certain psychedelic compounds of the natural and synthetic variety into my brain....which is maybe what you're having trouble understanding. I realize there is an inherent risk factor in *everything* we do every day. The question is always, "do the benefits outweigh the risks?" And for me, the benefits of my psychedelic use have been huge, so it's worth it to me. It may not be the same for you, and that's cool. We're all on our own journey, after all. The same goes with the h1n1 vaccine. The benefits don't outweigh the risks, for me, personally. If you sleep better at night with the vaccine, then go for it. But me, I'll pass, thanks.

any more questions?

also, thanks for backin me up there, Sentience.

 

[Transcendence]

Due to my auto-immunity and immune modulating therapies I am high risk for adverse immune reactions which is why I pass on most vaccinations. I think my concern is a little more justified compared to a lot of the people who are scared based on exaggerated concerns over possible side effects. There are risks from the vaccine. The flu is generally a lot riskier but the risk benefit scale tips according to how systemic the virus is. If 1/3 of the population is exposed, the scale tips towards getting vaccinated. If 5% get infected, the scale might tip towards not getting it unless its just to avoid missing work and being uncomfortable.

I suffered from frequent lung infections as a child, and due to that coupled with asthma I have a very high risk of developing pneumonia from a respiratory illness (whether it be novel H1N1 or just plain old regular H1N1). My immune system is healthy and so I can tolerate the vaccine (and get it every year). However, I know other people, like yourself, who don't have the luxury of getting the vaccine because of auto-immune disorders and other health problems. I have a close friend with an auto-immune disorder who also is at risk for developing pneumonia because of reoccurring lung infections. He can't get vaccinated, and is highly at risk for developing health complications due to the flu virus. His health is dependent largely on the health of those with which he interacts.

This is why I feel so strongly about vaccination. If everybody who could tolerate the vaccine was vaccinated, then those who aren't able to be vaccinated are protected. I don't think people should be forced to be vaccinated; in fact, the very idea seems heinous to me. However, I am simply asking people to closely examine their assumptions and beliefs about vaccination, whether they're are reasonable and well founded (such as yours), or based on fear due to misinformation (this applies to both the pro and anti-vaccination parties).

 

[Sentience]

If you live with a high risk individual, you should absolutely get vaccinated if you have no reasons why you cant be. Its a tiny almost insignificant risk to yourself but it places them at a much higher risk if you dont.

At some point I think that the burden should primarily fall on the person with special needs rather than on everybody else to waive their medical preferences. If for example a child is immune compromised, I dont think the whole daycare should be forced to make changes. It should be the one kid who should stay home if he has no immune system and his/her individual parents should get vaccinated. If you are severely immune compromised then you will be at risk from other infections that you cant be immunized against and should probably not be in crowded public areas anyway.

 

[Moral Decay]

A Washington redskins cheerleader around my area developed dystonia after getting the H1N1 vaccine. I personally never get the flu shot and i do not intend to get a brand new vaccine just because of the fear the media is spreading about a flu that kills less people then influenza that has always been around. More people in the USA die from typical influenza each year then have died from H1N1 this year.

 

[Sentience]

Actually, I think it was the regular flu shot that gave her dystonia. Absolutely horrible what happened to her. Did you know her?

 

[Moral Decay]

Actually, I think it was the regular flu shot that gave her dystonia. Absolutely horrible what happened to her. Did you know her?

No i did not know her but it was reported on several news programs in my area. I will have to go back and read up on it. Dystonia is a weird thing too, like she couldn't walk normally or talk. But she could run as if there was no problem and when she was running she could talk normally as well. Neurological disorders are intriguing.

 

[Sentience]

I thought she could walk backwards just fine but forwards was all clumsy and she would fall over. Its really sad.

Yeah, that reaction is very very rare but vaccines can in fact do that to you. She is ruined for life.

 

[Moral Decay]

I thought she could walk backwards just fine but forwards was all clumsy and she would fall over. Its really sad.

Yeah, that reaction is very very rare but vaccines can in fact do that to you. She is ruined for life.

Yeah they were saying she can run and while running can talk fine, that she can also walk backwards. But she walks very jerkingly and cant speak hardly at all when she is not running or walking backwards. Additionally they said she had 4 seizures during a 20 minute interview.