Whole dope scene might be changing in a year or two

Chaos--Not necessarily yo. the SA cartels been getting into a way of producing the dope that is the same model the factory farmers use in the US--own the chickens, the farms, the processing plants, the packaging plants, and the distributors, etc. its called 'vertical integration.' u own the whole thing, u make more money, u in charge of the whole process so u can cut costs where u need to , u can control it in every way--thats how the cartels are tryna move these days , not messing wtih importing other ppls shit to refine.

I aint saying that the morphine base aint getting bought and sold as well but from the reading that I have done it seems like the SA cartels, esp in colombia , is more interested in being self sufficient. there is more money in it to own everything, from top to bottom, and that way be able to over see the whole production process. not havin to rely on importing other ppls morphine base, not worrying about other peoples prices goin up or down, etc. they grow their own poppies and work the whole thing thru from begininnng to end. i aint saying u wrong but that in the past few years it has became more and more common for them to be using their own poppies their own morph. base, and so on, at least in the south american powder producing countries. Obviously mexico aint included in this becuz I aint no expert on that, but i always have followed the SA powder dope trade and read wat i can about it so thats the info that i have learned about it in the past few yrs.

and if u look at it that way, the afghani production really matters even less.

Anyways to the person who asked about the UK supply. of course it would affect yall more, the dope in europe is mostly from afghanistan and the middle east region. But i really doubt that this is gonna do much of anything. nobody gonna stop farming that shit no time soon.


Also, whoever the person who said that "obama wants heroin to cost more becuz he aint making enough money off it now" ...Come on yo, just...damn8)....u need a better argument there....:|
 
Can we stop just shouting what we think is happening in the world and actually cite some sources on where the heroin through out the US is coming from. It is pointless to ramble to someone about how they are wrong but not actually coming up with any reasonable evidence to support it. Being a dope head doesn't mean you know the finer points behind the trade.
 
Read the World Drug Report or any other publication(drug threat assessments, DEA Microgram, etc.) by the US Gov't dealing with where the heroin in the US comes from.

I don't have the links on hand, but I'd be willing to bet anything I have that if you're getting powder in the NE, it's most likely (by far)from Colombia. Tar is from Mexico, although a bit of powder may come from there as well. SEA and SWA heroin is very rare in the US, almost never seen at the street level.
 
cloudy, it aint nothing to do with thinking im informed cuz "im a dope head". Like Phrozen said there is tons of resources about this information. The shit I am saying is common knowledge among people who know about the basics of the drug trade here.

I dont save the links of the sources of every article I read in some kind of data base so that i can go back and provide it in case someday i write a post that got somethin to do with somethin ive read. There aint ONE source for this shit, its the product of reading and learning about the heroin trade and followin the subject for the past i dont even kno how many years. Over time, u interested in a subject, u follow it, u read the information, u remember it, and thats called knowledge,it aint from one source, you dont provide links on it--its the shit that u have built up over time from all the sources that u have gathered from.

The shit that I am sayin as well as other ppl, about the SA dope coming into the US, aint some type of shit that is speculation, opinion, or w/ever. Its fact, that is supported by DEA microgram reports, other information the feds release on the drug trade, info from seizures and drug shipments they intercept, and tons of other reputable sources like that.

The shit Phrozen said is correct, and just becuz the shit that I posted aint got reference links at the bottom dont mean its just 'some dope heads speculation.' The reason I didnt post sources is the same reason you dont post a source when you say "Obama is the 44th president of the united states.' Its common knowledge. apparently it aint as common as i thought becuz so many ppl is ignorant on this subject but I honestly thought that most ppl who would be posting in a thread about heroin supply, would have a basic background knowledge of the subject and would be aware of the fact that SA is "THE" source of the powder heroin on the east coast.

Obviously i was wrong, but this aint hard information to verify, so if u need a source that bad and are actually interested in the truth , then why not have a look yourself. the information u find will just confirm wat me and phrozen said.

I dont really feel like i got to back up or defend my info, becuz anybody who got the most basic understanding of the trade already knows this. It aint like i posted some kind of questionable, way-far out there conspiracy theory type of shit. It aint like i said some controversial, not proved, assumption. I didnt say nothing out of the ordinary, nothing that aint already well known and established. So I dont know why u questioning it like it some type of shady info that aint trustworthy. I been on this site for how many years and reading DITM as well as all kind of other news reports from LEO's, the DEA,etc, following the heroin trade for years.

I understand the basic idea of supporting ur statement with a fact. in the CEP forum, posting shit without sources or links to back it up aint really tolerated, so maybe you just asked for ppl to post sources out of wantin to be "official" or w/ever. if its just that you bein anal about it and want to be technical about it then I guess that aint a bad thing, but it seemed to me that was not the case and that u challenging the truth of the shit that I said , not just me but the other people who also talked about the middle east not being the supplier for our east coast trade.

how bout this--wheres ur source for thinking that the shit comes from Afghanistan?

Thats silly, cuz "we all know that." but I thought that on this board the majority of people who would be postin in a thread about the heroin trade would be more educated about it, and would "all" know that afghanistan and the middle east dont supply none of our powder dope here on the east coast of the US. See wat i mean?
 
Bam...

Drugroutemap.gif


This is taken from the "CIA Map of International Drug Pipelines"

As you can see, 90% of the heroin that comes into the US is either from Colombia or Mexico. And again, there is a percentage of dope that is coming from Middle Eastern or SE Asian countries, but this is limited. As well, it's mostly confined to the Pacific NW & Canada. I theorize that by the time the Dope gets here into the US it's already cut - by the time it gets to Canada it's so cut that at that point it just makes sense to straight import overseas. As well, it changes hands too many times to get to Canada cost effectively (ie. Too many middle man & too expensive). Lastly, the Canadian border is more modern and isn't quite as lax as it's southern counter-part (not that Mexico is anything related to 'lax' lately).

In the 1980s, 70% of the dope was coming from what is known as "The Golden Triangle" (Burma, Myanmar, ect...) and this notion has carried on for two decades now. It's such a popular myth that well-informed (or not-so-well informed) heroin users are still stating it as fact (See OP lol).

I dont save the links of the sources of every article I read in some kind of data base so that i can go back and provide it in case someday i write a post that got somethin to do with somethin ive read. There aint ONE source for this shit, its the product of reading and learning about the heroin trade and followin the subject for the past i dont even kno how many years. Over time, u interested in a subject, u follow it, u read the information, u remember it, and thats called knowledge,it aint from one source, you dont provide links on it--its the shit that u have built up over time from all the sources that u have gathered from.

Perfect response! That's exactly how it is, throughout the years I've pick up knowledge from tons of sources. Being immersed in that culture I'm obviously interested in aspects of it such as the trade, hence I read about it. Sometimes I get shitty info, but read and research long enough and I weed out the bad information and retain the good information. Eventually I have a well-rounded, detailed knowledge of the subject.
 
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First of all, I'm not gonna bother reading your whole ramble in response to a legitimate question with no bias to either side of the fence. I don't know the truth which is why I'm asking! duh! :p No need to spout out a bunch shit under false pretense. Give me facts and I'll listen.

Also how do you expect an intelligent conversation to arise when there are two conflicting sides and noone is actually listing any sources or bring any evidence to the table? I don't think anything I said is unreasonable at all, so thanks for acting like a little hurt baby because I don't want to take sides with out legitimate information..

I tried googling for a while and couldn't really come up with anything worth while just fyi.

Also, to the guy who posted the map, thanks for posting something that is barely worth while, it shows nothing on the amount of heroin being transported into the country.

I don't want to argue with anyone, I'm just trying to find out the facts behind it. I know I don't know shit about the heroin trade, which is why I'm trying to get legitmate information when there are people who disagree with you. Being an intelligent person I just can't side randomly with someone, I need facts to back up the data. I'm a science guy and like to see sources.
 
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If you didnt bother to read my post how do you know the contents of it?

Listen yo, I really appreciate ur review of my post as a "rant" from a "hurt little baby". That was pretty perceptive of u to point out--especially since there wasnt shit in it that could possibly get interpreted as bein even slightly like that.

I aint sure why u felt like u had to try to insult me instead of just makin your point in a normal way, but heres a tip for next time: go with somethin that actually applies to the person you are tryin to insult. If you took a poll of every person who has read or replied to this thread, i really doubt a single one would describe my post as whiney "hurt little baby" material. Usually u would use those words to describe a reply thats immature, based on emotions instead of facts, made by somebody whose angry that they got called out on somethin and lashes out on the person who did it--Not a civil, respectful post that is calmly replying to your questions.

Anyways, I think you missin the point that there is no "two opposing sides" to this thread. Nobody is arguing that afghanistan supplies the powder heroin thats available on the east coast. The original poster , bein totally un aware of the facts, assumed that production in afghanistan and a possible limit on that, would affect the entire US, and then got corrected, and thats pretty much it.

Phrozen, maybe you can point out to cloudy that the shit me and you and posters like diacetylrob is saying aint some type of crazy unsupported argument, but well known, established facts. I dont see the point of continuin to repeat myself to someone who asks for me to support the shit I said, and then when I do, cant even be bothered to read it and dismisses the post as a "ramble"/"rant." Its too bad that any post longer than a paragraph is a "TL;DR" for you cloudy, sorry for wasting my time. Ima suggest that you enjoy the rest of the thread without readin my "whiney baby rants" and save us both the trouble of any more pointless discussion.
 
If you didnt bother to read my post how do you know the contents of it?

Listen yo, I really appreciate ur review of my post as a "rant" from a "hurt little baby". That was pretty perceptive of u to point out--especially since there wasnt shit in it that could possibly get interpreted as bein even slightly like that.

I aint sure why u felt like u had to try to insult me instead of just makin your point in a normal way, but heres a tip for next time: go with somethin that actually applies to the person you are tryin to insult. If you took a poll of every person who has read or replied to this thread, i really doubt a single one would describe my post as whiney "hurt little baby" material. Usually u would use those words to describe a reply thats immature, based on emotions instead of facts, made by somebody whose angry that they got called out on somethin and lashes out on the person who did it--Not a civil, respectful post that is calmly replying to your questions.

Anyways, I think you missin the point that there is no "two opposing sides" to this thread. Nobody is arguing that afghanistan supplies the powder heroin thats available on the east coast. The original poster , bein totally un aware of the facts, assumed that production in afghanistan and a possible limit on that, would affect the entire US, and then got corrected, and thats pretty much it.

Phrozen, maybe you can point out to cloudy that the shit me and you and posters like diacetylrob is saying aint some type of crazy unsupported argument, but well known, established facts. I dont see the point of continuin to repeat myself to someone who asks for me to support the shit I said, and then when I do, cant even be bothered to read it and dismisses the post as a "ramble"/"rant." Its too bad that any post longer than a paragraph is a "TL;DR" for you cloudy, sorry for wasting my time. Ima suggest that you enjoy the rest of the thread without readin my "whiney baby rants" and save us both the trouble of any more pointless discussion.

If you bothered to read what I said, you'd noticed I said I didn't read your whole rant. The reason why I didn't bother with your rant is because your post sounded like you were butt hurt over the fact that I apparently don't believe you, just like a little child. Sorry if this offended you, but from what I read, your post was putting me down as if I was some idiot, and should just believe you just for the hell of it! Sorry, but in the real world, something isn't fact with out some proof. I don't mean to say that what you are stating is not fact. Fuck if I know, because no one has posted a damn thing with a source behind it (that graph doesn't show anything, just some paths of travel, no statistical data). Also the quote post is continuing to prove my point of you sounding like a butt hurt child. It isn't informative, nor is it productive. It is condescending.

The opposing sides comment maybe was an over statement, but there are posts in this thread which are not equal with yours, hence there being some discrepancy.

Also, where have you posted any sources to back up what you are saying? A fact needs to have evidence behind it, you haven't brought evidence to the table, so what you are saying isn't necessarily fact, until it can be verified. If this is a problem for you, I'm sorry. If you don't feel like taking the time, don't respond to my question. Is it really that hard? You can after me just because I wanted to see some sources so I can educate myself on this matter. Sorry for want to try and learn.
 
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If you didnt bother to read my post how do you know the contents of it?.

From Lacey, followed by...

If you bothered to read what I said, you'd noticed I said I didn't read your whole rant.

...From Cloudy

What exactly about Lacey's post sounds like she was "butt hurt" (? lulz) over you not believing her. She had a very eloquent, thoughtfully laid out response to you without any instances of immature offensiveness, while you're telling people she's 'Butt Hurt' over it. I'm not sure how you're coming up with the idea that she had some kind of impulsive, unguided comments. She simply explained why and how she knows the facts but can't reference them this second because we're humans and we don't bookmark/remember EVERY instance of statistical data for EVERY fact we know.

And frankly, we know the facts are the facts and I doubt any of us really cares that much as to spend significant amounts of time digging up dirt just to prove it to you. If you really are unsure or in disbelief than I suggest you do some research of your own.

I thought that graph - while not the end-all-be-all of references - was a decent starting point. Just follow up on that CIA report and I'm sure you can find some decent data.
 
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I really doubt this will have as big of an impact as the crop disease whiping out 93% of afghan poppies this year...

And even that might not cause any difference.
 
Your post makes me laugh as well. Its hilarious just how dense people are sometimes.

Read through my posts. Never once did I have a problem with what she said until her condescending post. I have no stance on the matter as I'm trying to get information. Seriously how hard is it to either find some sources to back up what you are trying to discuss or to ignore the request if you don't have time/don't feel like finding sources.

I'm sorry for saying she sounds like a child, but being condescending because i wanted to fully understand what the hell is happening in the heroin trade is being a baby. I never implied that I disbelieved her. I like to learn and I want to know the facts. Facts are supported by evidence, plain and simple.

There is no big deal. Its a silly argument, but all I want to know is the facts.

I'm sorry that I'm not well versed in the world of heroin. 8)

In my eye you all sound silly as hell. Like I said, you either respond to my post in an intelligent manner, or you just don't replay. Its no that hard.

Let me clarify what I mean by intelligent manner; you respond the post at hand. Before she made her condescending post all I said wanted to know is some legitimate sources. Being someone who isn't versed in the heroin trade, seeing people say different things isn't going to help either side prove me who is right. That's fucking stupid. You don't just blindly listen to who ever, you get some real evidence and then consider what is fact, especially when lacy said, "The shit I am saying is common knowledge among people who know about the basics of the drug trade here." Wow... That really helps... Also, let me bring up another little quote "There aint no heroin coming to the east coast from the middle east." This is clearly false by the graph posted on the last page, as well as the influence of the Italian mafia who run a lot of the heroin trade in Europe who also have major ties through out the Americas (see the book Gomorrah). Now tell me why I shouldn't want to see some sources....

Anyway I'm done, jamming up this thread. Feel free to delete all unnecessary posts.
 
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oughta' back the fuck off of Cloudy.
Cloudy has explained he wants to learn.
It sounds like he knows how to learn too.
don't know shit about the heroin trade
I'm a science guy and like to see sources.
how do you expect an intelligent conversation to arise when there are two conflicting sides
Cloudy,
A person who can read and understand research is able to produce their own. You obviously are. And for sure have. Nobody else has expressed they've any sort of scientific training Cloudy

I understand your background, so I dont think at ALL that you're defending yourself. Between me and you and other people that understand science, you dont have to. Some members prob. havent written a paper and dont find learning interesting.

I also know you wont be well recieved in a lab or professional atmosphere acting like a street druggie and typing ebonics.

and should just believe you just for the hell of it
lolol, classy

One option you might want to take is asking everybody to express a passion or an interest. Then have them form a yes/no question to be solved or addressed in that area.
BAM
Bill Nye the Science Guy now knows you.

Ive heard that the Natural Minerals in the area the OP spoke of, have been known for a long time. The area's wealth of mineral deposits was listed in my Dads sisters 1940's high school science book.

And I call bullshit on that coke sniffing O'Bama. His saying "one option out of the war is to develop the area's natural minerals" is just filler between headlines.
 
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you fail to mention that since the allied forces went back to the middle east in 2001,
heroin and opium production from these areas has intensified more than you would imagine.
 
I understand what you're getting at Cloudy and I mean no disrespect. The OP asked a question and I tried to answer it with the best of my knowledge. This isn't a science journal, this is an informal message board - you're not always going to get sources to cite every fact. Now I totally understand the need for evidence to back up a claim, being a man of science myself. This is why in the past I've taken the time to research the issue that leads me to my conclusion today. I don't expect you to take what we say at face value, but we laid out our knowledge on the topic and I even posted a mediocre source that could serve as a starting point for further learning.

Basically what I'm saying is, we answered a question in a detailed manner to the OP. I gave a starting point for research. On an informal drug-themed forum, it's going to be up to you to take it the next step and verify/nullify a posters statement, thats just the way it is. I've done it before and people have done it before me.

As well, I really don't think Lacey was trying to be condescending. If you have any kind of rapport with Lacey as a poster, you'll know that she is as well-informed as the best of them. Regardless of grammar & language she has a status here as a knowledgeable source of information relating to opiates. On a social forum like this, past credibility is almost as good as any source you can get. That's just the way it works, again, it's not a science journal.

Sorry for bringing up the fact you called her "Butt Hurt" - I just thought that was a little silly for someone who was complaining of an immature aggressive post, when that wasn't the reality.

I hope this can quell some arguing. Again, nothing personal.

Sources

1. http://www.justice.gov/ndic/pubs31/31379/dtos.htm

This basically tells of how Colombian DTOs have lessened their volume of cocaine production/trafficking and have picked up slack with heroin production/trafficking. It states that specifically Cubans/Dominicans/La Cosa Nostra (Sicilian DTO) also traffic large volume of heroin into the US because of their strong ties with Colombian DTOs. These combined DTOs import as much as 50% of the total heroin and 85% of powder #4 heroin into the US, all originating in Colombia. It states that Asians have been bringing in high-potency marijuana as well as MDMA, nowhere does it mention heroin (because they aren't - it's going to Canada or being brought in on such a small scale.

Also, it talks specifically about the Italian/Sicilian situation, to quote:

U.S.-based IOC--Sicilian Mafia, 'Ndrangheta, Camorra, and Sacra Corona Unita (Sacred Crown)--operate in at least 19 states, according to law enforcement reporting (see Map A7 in Appendix A). IOC members engage in myriad criminal activities, including assault, counterfeiting, extortion, fraud, money laundering, and drug trafficking. IOC members smuggle multiton quantities of marijuana and cocaine into the United States for distribution; they also smuggle lesser quantities of heroin and MDMA. IOC trafficking networks have been severely diminished by several successful law enforcement operations over the past 2 decades. Law enforcement reporting reveals that U.S.-based IOC, primarily Sicilian Mafia, is reestablishing its trafficking networks despite arrests, indictments, and convictions of high-ranking IOC members.

While the Italians certainly do dabble in drug operations in the US, it's just a drop in the bucket and is not what you're finding in the street - regardless of their history.

2. http://www.justice.gov/dea/pubs/state_factsheets.html

Heroin is readily available in many U.S. cities as evidenced by the unprecedented high level of average retail, or street-level, purity. Criminals in four foreign source areas produce the heroin available in the United States: South America (Colombia), Southeast Asia (principally Burma), Mexico, and Southwest Asia/Middle East (principally Afghanistan). While virtually all heroin produced in Mexico and South America is destined for the U.S. market, each of the four source areas has dominated the U.S. market at some point over the past 30 years. Over the past decade, the United States has experienced a dramatic shift in the heroin market from the domination of Southeast Asian heroin to a dominance of the wholesale and retail markets by South American heroin, especially in the East. In the West, by contrast, "black tar" and, to a lesser extent, brown powdered heroin from Mexico have been, and continue to be, the predominant available form.
 
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I have two theories on what could happen:

1. The guys that run the game over there will just make bigger farms, so fewer people will be producing opium but the ones that are will make up for it with bigger crops and nothing will really change.

2. They stop farming and supply is severly cut. There will be way way less dope coming to the east coast from the middle east, and the mexicans will pretty much take over the whole dope game in the US. BUT that would probably spread their supply thin and so due to supply and demand, price will go up. Everybody will be copping overpriced tar.

What do you guys think?

There is always the possibility of the drug kingpins offering farmers a more generous deal so that they will continue to grow the poppies, hence skyrocketing the present price of dope on the streets in the long run.
 
Regardless of whatever facts have been mentioned in this thread, 90%+ of the world's opium is grown in Afghanistan, centering around Helmand Province.

During the Soviet-Afghani conflict, the CIA and Pakistani ISI encouraged the production of opium which was smuggled by the mujaheddin in cooperation w/ ISI officials into Pakistan and traded / sold in exchange for weaponry. ISI collaborated to create facilities in the border region between Afghanistan and Pakistan for in-house refinement of not only morphine base, but heroin also. ISI sold the refined product to finance madrassas (religious schools, in this case often fundamentalist), Pakistani nuclear proliferation, and to fund operations that directly / indirectly rendered Afghanistan's central government crippled, thus maximizing Pakistani influence in the region.

I don't dispute what Lacey and others are saying, but one must realize that those in South America or elsewhere are not growing the opium and refining it all in the same place. South America / South and Eastern Europe are just another stop in an elaborate web of deception that is the global heroin network. After Afghanistan, the next largest producer of raw opium is SE Asia.

Since the US invasion of Afghanistan, avg. heroin purity has risen, farm gate price of opium has dropped for growers, yet the profit margins for smugglers have greatly increased. Production has seen a great rise also.


The "dope scene" will not change because it is globally controlled.

Edit: Rereading this post, I should clarify by saying that some raw opium is produced in SA as lacey mentioned i.e. "vertical integration" but it is not a huge amount when considered globally
 
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^^^yes, exactly. It is not a coincidence that purity and availability has skyrocketed since 2001, when the US military entered Afghanistan and it is not a coincidence that the US military is still there, 9 years later.

we're not chasing down Muslims with big beards over there. This is the world's poorest country that produces that world's most valuable black market product. We are there for the opium. nothing less, nothing more.
 
^^^yes, exactly. It is not a coincidence that purity and availability has skyrocketed since 2001, when the US military entered Afghanistan and it is not a coincidence that the US military is still there, 9 years later.

we're not chasing down Muslims with big beards over there. This is the world's poorest country that produces that world's most valuable black market product. We are there for the opium. nothing less, nothing more.

I see your point, but I think that is oversimplifying the situation. The US gov't and its allies have long been playing a risky game of pragmatism in the Middle East; couple this w/ backing of many corrupt officials e.g. Pakistan and the ulterior motives of intelligence organizations & there ya have it. Many opposing forces trying to shape an uncertain future one day at a time.

Was recently researching this very topic, I find it fascinating as I'm sure many of you do too.
 
^^^ well look who we back in Afghanistan- Hameed Karzai

his brother is Ahmed Wali Karzai, a drug kingpin who is also on the CIA payroll. We create the "enemy" and we finance the "enemy."
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/28/world/asia/28intel.html?_r=2

Dopefiends=men and women that love this country. Everytime you get high, you support Uncle Sam. The streets of Baltimore are full of patriotic Americans high off their ass on the red white and blue.
 
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