What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[vecktor]

I wont even try to comment on and critique the gist and full extent of what you are saying.

But I must query this statement as it appears very innacurate. 100 mg is a moderately small dose by today's ecstasy pill standards.

More like 200-300 mg is extremely common with 200mg being the sought-after norm bench standard I would suggest.

Original, full potency, banging old skool pills, like the classic White Dove of the early 90's, 120-130 mg would have been the standard.

With higher and lower doses of course. And actually there was a remarkably high proportion of those white doves which actually contains very high dose MDEA, like up to 170 mg plus.

Doses dropped heavily by 1996, when 60 to 70 mg became pretty standard and were regarded as "decent" pills. Towards the end of the millennium in 1999 especially at the festivals and parties I attended in the United Kingdom, ecstasy pills contained much higher amounts of MDMA again.

From 2003 to 2005, it seemed pretty normal to get very clean pills well over 100 mg. I stopped taking it in 2005, just as it all went downhill.

So today's 200-300 mg pills are indeed stronger than ever practically in terms of amounts and maybe on par with the original double doves which I never took myself but I assume would have been between 200 and 250 mg.

sticking to MDMA If you look at the numbers the 90's pills were around 50 to 120 mg per tablet with an average around 80-100mg the forensic data is out there, a couple of times the average fell and the average fell hard through 2009 and then rose again but in the long run it has always been around 100mg. today 300mg pills are still a rarity most are still, you guessed it, around 100mg

to add to the confusion some of the 90's pills were MDA but there was no way to tell what was what because every muppet had the same press tooling, a large amount of MDA came out of the baltics in the 1990s before it was banned.
MDEA is less potent than MDMA and needs a higher dose anyways

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

Stronger isn't always better. This is the crux of this whole argument. Why are 250mg pills qualitatively inferior to 100mg pills of old?

 

[G_Chem]

@vektor- I’m too hungover to start now but will at least throw in that your wrong about the one pot from PMK glycidate to MDMA. If you’d actually spent the two solid years it takes to read this thread you’d saw that one

I have a post somewhere in there that goes over the anecdotal as well as scientific research (a paper provided from Biscuit showing chemistry trends for at least that area, Aus tends to import and follow trends of EU.) I then show how that recent change to I believe it was Platinum hydrogenation (could be wrong, alcohol... gotta look back) could theoretically use PMK glycidate in a one pot.

When combining the word on the street, with the more common synth routes changing, and then seeing that indeed this new change would be possible to use in a one pot, it all seems to fall in place.

I’ll agree on 2,3-MDMA/MDP2P. I entertained that theory but it’s not possible large scale to be a problem.

That’s all for now, gotta puke.

-GC

 

[vecktor]

@vektor- I’m too hungover to start now but will at least throw in that your wrong about the one pot from PMK glycidate to MDMA. If you’d actually spent the two solid years it takes to read this thread you’d saw that one

I have a post somewhere in there that goes over the anecdotal as well as scientific research (a paper provided from Biscuit showing chemistry trends for at least that area, Aus tends to import and follow trends of EU.) I then show how that recent change to I believe it was Platinum hydrogenation (could be wrong, alcohol... gotta look back) could theoretically use PMK glycidate in a one pot.

once you finish puking, you could have the courtesy to actually read what I said rather than what you think I said,
PMK glycidate to MDMA is possible in one pot but not one step, without going into the details too much it is ester hydrolysis followed by decarboxylation, the resulting epoxde rearranges to give the ketone incidentally this is exactly the same epoxide that is an intermediate in the oxidation of isosafrole with peroxy acids (shulgins method). The ketone is then reductively aminated with methylamine. However the acid or base from the first step is troublesome in the second step.
hence one pot multiple step not one step. but I suspect that most operators are extracting the PMK from the first step into a second vessel after washing it, someone skilled in the art would precipitate the bisulphite addition product of PMK and then reductively aminate that.

The alternative route of oxygen to nitrogen swap followed by the hydrolysis and decaboxylation is unlikely to be practical and is way beyond the skill level of generic MDMA cook Cletus Klootzak and still isn't single step.

Biscuits input is just noise and massively error prone. Chirality does not spontaneously arise ever, so whilst PMK glycidate is a chiral molecule it is made from achiral piperonal and achiral alpha chloro propionate ester in what is called the Darzens reaction, in this case methyl chloropropionate and it gives a racemic mixture of cis and trans PMK glycidate or racemic cis or racemic trans it does not produce one chiral form over the other. People in this thread biscuit included, seem to think that PMK glycidate is the glycidate ester of PMK which is total and utter bullshit that an undergraduate would blow apart. PMK is a ketone and PMK glycidate is not an ester of PMK at all, it is properly methyl 2-methyl-3-phenyloxirane-2-carboxylate

In short the current MDMA is MDMA just like all the old MDMA, the physical form might be different, the pressings and the pill binders certainly are and the pills seem worse if not totally bad at releasing MDMA. The crystal is not as pure as people like to think and large crystals are way worse than small crystals for dissolving.

It will be interesting to see what replaces PMK glycidate as the pre precursor of choice over the next few years, I don't expect anything groundbreaking, but Cletus Klootzak occasionally comes up with something surprising.

 

[AutoTripper]

@vecktor one point you made which did make me think, as this is something already considered by myself- was your comments on the binders used and how this may be affecting the way and extent to/speed at which our bodies absorb tge MDMA.

And your suggestion that some people could actually be allergic to these modern binders. This has always deterred me from ever considering trying and MDMA pill again until just recently. I cant even take basic vitamin pills, I'm extremely intolerant to virtually all additives in supplements, as well as the supplements themselves, which I also reacts adversely to in virtually all cases when there is no other ingredient present.

Not knowing the other inactive ingredients in ecstasy pills is a big cause of concern to me. All of these solid, hard pressed, bright coloured, shiny pills- I expect I would react more negatively to than the lightly coloured, super crumbly Bowsers I was fortunate to procure.

I think they look about as ideal for me in this regard as any pills I have seen, in terms of how they seem to be largely unprocessed. I have put out a call to my friend to reserve some if any left. I still haven't tried the ones I have yet, but I always think ahead. It may be a good move to ensure that I have the option of rolling again a few times, over time, with these crumbly light coloured pills, rather than risk having more of an adverse reaction to be hard-pressed and bright coloured pills which my friend may have in future for all I know.

However, and please excuse my naivety- regarding the binders affecting absorption, would this not be completely negated by crushing the pills down, or "crunching" as we used to term it, and which we commonly did to achieve a faster comeup?

Surely so? Once the pill is in fine powder, the binder and MDMA would be completely separated surely? To the extent that anybody concerned about this could crush there pills and put them into capsules if they really wanted to try and negate the possible reduced absorption time due to the binder.

Another idea, if some people genuinely are allergic to certain binders this could perhaps affect their experience of the MDMA and the role and result in a much more negative come down and side effects, depending on how severe the allergy is of course.

 

[G_Chem]

Your wrong... Look at the first write up on the erowid page for platinum hydrogenation. I won’t go into details but it’s highly likely the GAA used in the first step would convert the PMK glycidate to PMK. If PMK glycidate was subbed it’d likely be converted to PMK during that first six hour initial stir.

The GAA doesn’t effect it all and is required for better yields from memory. This is a one pot reaction, and don’t nit pick by saying “steps.” That word is about as vague as it gets...

For instance.. Pouring a glass of water might have one step for one write up, pour h20 from one container to another. Another write up could be multiple steps, 1) check to ensure h20 is distilled 2) measure XXX ml 3) pour slowly to ensure no spillage 4) discard first container 5) enjoy cold water.

You see the word “steps” isn’t really what we are talking here. We are talking one fluid reaction that is done in the same reaction flask with no clean up of intermediates along the way. Which is exactly what I stated.. Not only that but we have underground chemists confirming this, as well as Biscuits “noise.” (To be fair the only noise is coming from your direction but I digress.)

I read you just fine bud. I think it’s you that should read some more. Starting with that first write up in Erowid.

As for what precursors to come, it seems there are a few others already in use but whether their an anomaly or truly the future we’ll have to see. I will say that PMK glycidate and piperanol have been known about for a long time and it took quite a few years for them to switch over. Hopefully there’s less lag time this round.

As for binders being the issue.. No. Maybe for some where the pill doesn’t hit for 2 hours but not the issues many are dealing with.

And once again this is NOT all MDMA. Just some in certain areas.

-GC

 

[vecktor]

Your wrong... Look at the first write up on the erowid page for platinum hydrogenation. I won’t go into details but it’s highly likely the GAA used in the first step would convert the PMK glycidate to PMK. If PMK glycidate was subbed it’d likely be converted to PMK during that first six hour initial stir.

The GAA doesn’t effect it all and is required for better yields from memory. This is a one pot reaction, and don’t nit pick by saying “steps.” That word is about as vague as it gets...

For instance.. Pouring a glass of water might have one step for one write up, pour h20 from one container to another. Another write up could be multiple steps, 1) check to ensure h20 is distilled 2) measure XXX ml 3) pour slowly to ensure no spillage 4) discard first container 5) enjoy cold water.

You see the word “steps” isn’t really what we are talking here. We are talking one fluid reaction that is done in the same reaction flask with no clean up of intermediates along the way. Which is exactly what I stated.. Not only that but we have underground chemists confirming this, as well as Biscuits “noise.” (To be fair the only noise is coming from your direction but I digress.)

I read you just fine bud. I think it’s you that should read some more. Starting with that first write up in Erowid.

As for what precursors to come, it seems there are a few others already in use but whether their an anomaly or truly the future we’ll have to see. I will say that PMK glycidate and piperanol have been known about for a long time and it took quite a few years for them to switch over. Hopefully there’s less lag time this round.

As for binders being the issue.. No. Maybe for some where the pill doesn’t hit for 2 hours but not the issues many are dealing with.

And once again this is NOT all MDMA. Just some in certain areas.

-GC

OK I see that you have no idea what one pot or one step means to a chemist. No problem. I said one pot multiple steps and I meant what I said. the multiple steps are telescoped to use the correct terminology.
its piperonal btw
There is no way that Cletus Klootzak is following Erowid, lets face it most of the crap that Erowid has comes from ADC and Eleuisis no disrepect to Jeff but a lot of it is pure bull. I really doubt that Glacial acetic acid is strong enough to cleave the methyl ester or do any of the other chemistry needed on PMK glycidate, you're welcome to prove me wrong, but even if it somehow did work and decarboxylated the free acid was then the intermediate would be the epoxide which is the same epoxide as produced by oxidation of isosafrole with performic or peracetic acid whcih takes us straight back to Shulgin chemistry, so where is the difference exactly in the chemistry.
I also think that borohydride is the reducing agent of choice STAB to be precise which replaced NaBH3CN a while back. there are photos of a cat H2 lab on 750l scale siezed in 2015 or 2016 published by the EMCDDA they published it because they thought cat H2 was noteworthy.
I want to know if there is something to this, but you are not giving me anything here.

 

[psy997]

Vecktor, I super appreciate you bringing what seems like some pretty expert level chemistry here.

I also want to reiterate what has been done here in the past 10-25 pages, which is the collection of a massive amount of anecdotal evidence suggesting significant qualitative differences in some MDMA experiences as contrasted with the generally accepted effects profile of MDMA. From my own assessment, enough evidence has been gathered to rule out the possibility of old timer nostalgia, changing personalities and persons, set and setting influences, and other arguments brought here and elsewhere as to why MDMA is the same as it's ever been.

Your reference to the LSD purity discussions and circular logic leads me to think that too much emphasis is being placed on the variety of explanations we, as chemistry naive users, have brainstormed. I believe I can speak for the main players in this thread when I say that the attachment here is not to proposed mechanisms of action, if you will, but instead to our own personal experience as corroborated by now large amounts of others' experiences, both physiological and psychological.

I want your chemistry expertise included in our discussion, and I'm weary of your contributions if you are unwilling to contribute more than explanations as to why a well-documented phenomenological occurrence is, in fact, in our heads.

 

[Simosom]

Thread is getting bigger, more and more users confirming mehdma theory. We had a reports from first time users. Now we have a chemists that don't trust their mices.

 

[Dresden]

Because we are in Hell?

 

[FatBellyWhipSlay]

I agree

I am en ex-raver 1988-2002 and the disco biscuits back then were so pure, I never had a bad comedown

foll forward to 2000 and god knows what they cut with it. I used to be bad for 4 or days afterwards

the last decent pill I had was in 1996 and was an 'Apple' (logo)

 

[AutoTripper]

I agree I am en ex-raver 1988-2002 and the disco biscuits back then were so pure, I never had a bad comedown foll forward to 2000 and god knows what they cut with it. I used to be bad for 4 or days afterwards the last decent pill I had was in 1996 and was an 'Apple' (logo) I wont discount your personal experience, but I can assure you I took very many top quality ecstasy pills after 1996, really the best so many times. Not always of course, and you are right but it was from 1996 onwards that the general impurity and contamination increased and there was a lot of crap around much more so than up until 1995 at least. But that was no way the end for ecstasy/MDMA. I can think of so many different pills, certainly in 1999 in my area. Flooded it was at those Exodus festivals in particular, which were as banging as could be (the pills I mean). Not forgetting the original Mitsubishis (in early 1998 I think?). I took a lot of Mitsubishi batches over the years that were extremely good and reminiscent of old school pills. But again, so many duds and inferiors around. Im sure it has been somewhat hit and miss depending on area, contacts, scene etc as to what our longterm individual experiences and memories of pill quality over the years at different stages has bern. I think I was quite fortunate that pill quality improved massively in 1999 and 2000. But this was much more so the case in my hometown of Bedford UK. In Swansea, Wales, where I studied at university at the same time the general quality was much more hit-and-miss and they were very long periods of time when all I could get was absolute rubbish. Back in Bedford in 2003, by 2004 the quality and strength stepped up again and I was taking certain presses for months which were very near the old skool, no comedown, long stable roll, didnt need much for a night and awsome aftergow day. Like 2 to 3 pills was a lot for a night. I was gobbling up to 13 or so at times, still with no bad physical comedown at all. They were really strong and clean pills and I was completely off my head of course but really didn't suffer as I transisted back down to Earth over the next few days I can remember one specific occasion actually on a casual evening round some friends house, when I double dropped the very good and strong "Playstations", then double dropped again half an hour later, another half hour after that I took 3 more. All totally spontaneous which was 7 in exactly 1 hour it just kind of happened because I completely lost my sense of time and wasn't thinking about it and just went with the flow. I reckon a good gram's worth of MDMA. When I realised the timeline for my consumption I was amazed at how remarkably calm and comfortable and perfectly ok I felt in every sense. These pills were strong easily strong enough to roll off of 1 and taking such a heavy dose like that was still remarkably smooth and I had a thoroughly enjoyable night just relaxing in a dreamy chilled out state round a friend's house who was up playing a computer game all night, but not on drugs himself at the time. And again I had no bad come down from this or any great difficulty beyond the messed up sleeping routine and obvious fatigue and motivational factors when it comes to working through the week. So Im just saying, 1996 is not when it all stopped. Sure it changed. But quality and potency has varied quite a lot since then over the years before things apparently really went South in 2005 just after I stopped using MDMA and giving it any conscious thought. And unless I'm mistaken again, this thread is basically exploring, specifically, the undisputed drop in quality, trends, causes etc post-2005 when MDMA kind of vanished, and most importantly the apparent distinction between the allegedly high purity/strength MDMA since its global reemergence in 2010, and the best MDMA people recall taking since ever and "back then."

 

[Dresden]

Heaven ain't close in a place like this.

 

[AutoTripper]

Heaven ain't close in a place like this.

Haha, funny you should say that. Thanks for reminding me of one of my favorite ever Old Skool Happy hardcore tunes of all time.


It's called "Gotta Believe". This was the scene I got into when it all began, and this misic will always hold a special place in my heart.

 

[FatBellyWhipSlay]

Now were talking ;-) Castle Donnington '92

 

[Chonciceptor]

@Chonciceptor

Nice to see you back. I was wondering what had happened with you and your wife. Did your old supplier ever show back up? I will definitely let you know how the new product is. Although I heard that some of the leading markets have closed with exit scams, so I don't know if I will be able to get it again even if I like it. That seems to be how it goes.

All is good lol, we had gotten some DW product over Christmas, and, as usual, it was mediocre at best, about the same as all the other crap! The market I was using is out of business, so in to others and see if I can find better product!

 

[Dresden]

AFAICT, we haven't been able to "feel" mdma since August 29th, 1997 when President Clinton "virtual reality" nuked us big time!

Last time I tried PMA, though, it felt like a good pre 1997 roll with extreme mydriasis but with less of an urge to dance. It didn't make me overdose but YMMV.

 

[AutoTripper]

AFAICT, we haven't been able to "feel" mdma since August 29th, 1997 when President Clinton "virtual reality" nuked us big time!

Last time I tried PMA, though, it felt like a good pre 1997 roll with extreme mydriasis but with less of an urge to dance. It didn't make me overdose but YMMV.

Dude are you actually being serious? I cant see it but I also can't say I quite get your humour.
I would suggest that you are in No Man's Land. Your humour appears somewhat lacking in relevance and actual humour to be worthwhile or apprecieated by others. I am ALL for good humour but not for private humour which "humours" our own inner persepectuve only and is totally lost on others, isnt always true humour, althouh it can be providing one actually knows how to use humour properly. Much more fun when there is a joke in there for everyone.

Im just a bit puzzled trying to figure out where you are coming from as your tone is so flippant and loose. I was excited to see a new post here, this is a ery onteresting thread with lots of excellent contributions from some extremely clever people.

And then, some not so purposeful contributions as well which do not appear to add anything.

Edit- on a sidenote, I did try to oblige your previous request above by giving you a bit of "Heaven." ? ☺

 

[Biscuit]

Good grief Vecktor, it’s my 20th year on this wonderful site and that’s the first time I’ve been referred to as a source of “Noise”. Whatever that might be anyway.

I live in the most isolated city in the world, in one of the most laid back country’s in the world, where everyone is called “Mate” and where such pointedly pointless attacks that still gets us nowhere near a resolution, is just not something I’m going to understand. I definitely won’t be biting back or making more “noise” in response.

I never professed to know the answer and all any of us were (and are) doing is trying to come up with valid theories for the adverse change to mdma quality (I was very much in the isomer difference camp) and in turn we made suggestions which might account for the theory. If it is wrong then it is wrong and that’s great, it can then be crossed off the list. And frankly it is a shame you weren’t around at the time these various statements were being made, so that your various pointedly points of view could have been properly assessed in the context and at the same time as what others were saying.

At the end of the day much of the MDMA today is different in a bad and unusual way. That is undeniable. I’ve had piss poor amounts quantity wise from batches recently and have been taken back ten years in a heart beat. Until someone has a clear lab result which confirms it is all racemic I am not ruling that outcome out at all.

It also cannot be denied that: the emergence of PMK glycidate, the change to Pt hydrogenation on a mass scale and the arrival of mega dosed Dutch pills with crappy effects and mdma “crystal” with no soul; all occurred at the same time, within the same year. That cannot be coincidental. Further, PMK glycidate (or glycidic ester of which there are many types coming through) is being sold in chiral and achiral forms on the net.

In any event, can you please provide forensic lab analysis results for mdma produced from this pre-precursor. How is it done? What impurities are seen? Is there an identifiable scientific difference between MDMA from this pre-precursor and MDMA produced from properly purified PMK, regardless of whether it is from safrole, isosafrole or piperonyl. Well? Anything? Because there is absolutely an identifiable anecdotal difference the world over that the scientific community needs to get off its arse and account for.

I will have to research the points you have otherwise made before commenting further, which despite being announced on the back of a venomous and monotonous drumroll, I’m still happy to distill, crystallise and take away in a purer form, as being your valuable contribution to this collaborative and cooperative worldwide effort from many in the BL community.

Peace. Love. Unity. Respect. That’s what this site was built upon. And if that doesn’t work may I suggest trying to “Throw a shrimp on the barbi” and chilling out a little.

 

[G_Chem]

And I said one pot multiple steps too... Glad it took us that long to agree. I know exactly what both terms mean, the fact you don’t go further to correct my “mistakes” shows your just trying to argue to argue.. (Not sure how much simpler and more clear I can word it.) I get it, no one likes to be wrong, but don’t let your obvious emotions cloud this debate or else we’ll go around in even more circles.

I said one pot, I never stated one step, that’s your assumptions. Again the word “steps” is vague and means different things to different people. The term “one pot” is something people immediately understand in the chemistry world, saying “however many steps” means jack shit and you know this.

I love how you then discredit the ONLY actual research and evidence, known synthesis routes from Erowid, to further your beliefs. Shit it’s like arguing with a flat earther.. Yes some of the synth routes are garbage (delepine and pugsley comes to mind) but most are legit.

I’ll agree GAA may not work but the GAA isn’t necessary and can be subbed with an acid that would. I know for a fact that route is not bunk either.

Idk what else to say really.. I’ve proven that this can be done in a ONE POT (did you read that right?). (For those who don’t know what means, it’s a reaction done start to finish in the same container without purification of any intermediates.) I’ve shown interviews with chemists stating the new reduction is a one pot. And I can even tie it all in with the report from Biscuit.

Despite all this vektor. You nit pick on stupid wording, steps vs one pot lol. You discredit Biscuit (a highly regarded member) and his research that shows the chemistry trends which agree with this theory. You say everything on Erowid is bullshit. You say that interview is lie..

This beginning to look like one big conspiracy man. Cuz clearly everyone is wrong but you..

Psy I’d disregard this mans chemistry expertise. While he knows a thing or two, he’s another that lets his emotion cloud over all evidence presented to him. Every piece of evidence which contradicts his view is clearly “garbage.”

-GC