What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[vash445]

Ok, call me convinced. Suppose this 5mg impurity can completely negate the effect of 200 mg of MDMA. Do you believe the Dutch megapills have the same impurity? 200mg megapill will definitely roll, it's not nothing by any stretch, but some aspects of the high seem to be missing or reduced.

Are we dealing with two completely separate problems here:

1. Why some MDMA tests at 97% but does not work at all
2. Why some Dutch MDMA pills seem to be missing the "magic", while still providing a pretty good high




Can you explain that again?

Pharmacological Characterization of Ecstasy Synthesis Byproducts with Recombinant Human Monoamine Transporters
Ecstasy samples often contain byproducts of the illegal, uncontrolled synthesis of N-methyl-3,4-methylenedioxy-amphetamine or 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA). MDMA and eight chemically defined byproducts of MDMA synthesis were investigated for their interaction with the primary sites of action of MDMA, namely the human plasmalemmal monamine transporters for norepinephrine, serotonin, and dopamine [(norepinephrine transporter (NET), serotonin transporter (SERT), and dopamine transporter (DAT)]. SK-N-MC neuroblastoma and human embryonic kidney cells stably transfected with the transporter cDNA were used for uptake and release experiments. Two of the eight compounds, 1,3-bis (3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-propanamine (12) and N-formyl-1,3-bis (3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-prop-2-yl-amine (13) had uptake inhibitory potencies with IC50 values in the low micromolar range similar to MDMA. Compounds with nitro instead of amino groups and a phenylethenyl instead of a phenylethyl structure or a formamide or acetamide modification had IC50 values beyond 100 microM. MDMA, 12, and 13 were examined for induction of carrier-mediated release by superfusion of transporter expressing cells preloaded with the metabolically inert transporter substrate [3H]1-methyl-4-phenylpyridinium. MDMA induced release mediated by NET, SERT, or DAT with EC50 values of 0.64, 1.12, and 3.24 microM, respectively. 12 weakly released from NET- and SERT-expressing cells with maximum effects less than one-tenth of that of MDMA and did not release from DAT cells. 13 had no releasing activity. 12 and 13 inhibited release induced by MDMA, and the concentration dependence of this effect correlated with their uptake inhibitory potency at the various transporters. These results do not support a neurotoxic potential of the examined ecstasy synthesis byproducts and provide interesting structure-activity relationships on the transporters.

Sci-Hub | Pharmacological Characterization of Ecstasy Synthesis Byproducts with Recombinant Human Monoamine Transporters. Journal of Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics, 314(1), 346–354 | 10.1124/jpet.105.084426

 

[vash445]

Ok, call me convinced. Suppose this 5mg impurity can completely negate the effect of 200 mg of MDMA. Do you believe the Dutch megapills have the same impurity? 200mg megapill will definitely roll, it's not nothing by any stretch, but some aspects of the high seem to be missing or reduced.

Are we dealing with two completely separate problems here:

1. Why some MDMA tests at 97% but does not work at all
2. Why some Dutch MDMA pills seem to be missing the "magic", while still providing a pretty good high




Can you explain that again?



Agreed, they won't. But there's a small chance that they would've come back saying your sample was not .97 but .60. Meaning something went wrong in your purity measurement or calculation. Don't ask me how. It's unlikely, but so is the proposed ultra-potent impurity. The purpose of getting a second purity measurement would be simply to eliminate this objection completely. Though I actually find your theory more likely

AGAIN OUR COLUMN would have found out it if was .6 or .7 instead of .97... again read what I wrote. UNLESS YOU KNOW some chemistry please do not inject anymore. WHEN he ran the column he was shocked to find it was almost PURE MDMA. if the machine is broken/ miscalibrated like you claim as a small possibility, the column would have detected the discrepancy. You are flooding the forum with useless interjections. Im sorry EC would not DISPUTE our results it would show high purity MDMA ... I hope you understand that a second result WILL NOT SHOW ANYTHING NOR CAN WE DO ONE all that MDMA has been purified. I HAVE PULLED SO MANY STRING TO GET THAT NMR running and done. Please understand that IT CANN'T BE CUT or impure because it is DIRECT FROM THE SOURCE. THE chemist even complained IT IS NOT ACTIVE... like don't you get it?

TAKE OUR COLUMN RESULTS AS confirmation or provide 4 grams of MEHmdma . OTHERWISE PLEASE DO NOT INTERJECT anymore. YOU HAVE NOT READ WHAT WE HAVE DONE BECAUSE I'M TIRED OF REPEATING MYSELF. It's clear WHAT WE HAVE DONE... MALDI shows the mol weigh as MDMA. NMR shows it's pretty fucking pure MDMA, we def see something GC/MS doesn't see and TRUST ME THEY WILL SEE IT AS HIGH PURITY MDMA I DO NOT KNOW WHAT TO TELL YOU BRO .. Please reread since Nov if you want to be WELL INFORMED. ..... if you do not understand what has been said since Nov then you probably won't at this point. Sorry.... Again the micro impurity is facts read what we posted earlier...

 

[mars2025]

2. Why some Dutch MDMA pills seem to be missing the "magic", while still providing a pretty good high
Because binders and filler effect oral bioavailability . and good presser like checkpoint and the few other produce semi magic pills.

If binders and filler are the only issue, and pills are "semi-magic", then why isn't checkpoint's 84% crystal fully magic?

 

[vash445]

If binders and filler are the only issue, and pills are "semi-magic", then why isn't checkpoint's 84% crystal fully magic?

WHy is my PRIVATE LAB TESTED 97% MDMA inactive... I CANT FUCKING TELL YOU BRO . I have no idea... that entire 84% is just an fake number it isnt real... just a catch all

What I can tell you is is ran my stuff thru a column and the graph became more clean.. I do not know if it is more active...

 

[mars2025]

that entire 84% is just an fake number it isnt real

84% is real, or it could be. If you buy pure crystal compound in Amsterdam and take it to Jellinek, when you call for the results, they'll tell you it's 84%. If you take the same sample to Energy Control or saferparty, they'll tell you it's 100%. (Assuming, of course, that it is.) So translated from Dutch, "84%" means 100% pure MDMA*HCl. When I said, "checkpoint's 84% crystal," I meant (nearly) 100% pure MDMA*HCl, nearly the same purity as MAPs and Shulgin.

 

[user666]

Was the synth route used to make your meh MDMA from Safrole, the Wacker oxidation and amination with methylamine over Al/Hg ?

NO , I've told you, my meh MDMA WAS SAFROLE based... that is not it...

So do you think the impurity comes from the Safrole or one of the reagents?

Whatever it is is an amine and not easily cleaned... This is what the evidence points to

Could it be an MDMA dimer ?

 

[user666]

... almost no bands of contamination...

I wish you had concentrated that "almost"-fraction and tested it.

This has to be an impurity issue. because my meh MDMA batch after being column ran became clear NMR vs when it was dirty. The magic and meh became more inline once purified.

Would it not be a good idea to run the column again and DISCARD the MDMA and identify the concentrated remainder ?

 

[user666]

It is crazy to think that current MDMA is testing positive as just MDMA but has absolutely none of the characteristics associated with MDMA.
Lovey-dovey,
touchy-feely,
feelings of love and empathy,
completely dilated pupils,
openness,
loving everyone around you,
incredible sex,
next day afterglow, etc. etc. etc.

None of those characteristics are present in today’s MDMA.

I noticed that once in a while somebody comes around and attributes all of these deficiencies to tolerance., while completely ignoring the same corroborating observations from 1st time users.

This is why you should not leave this thread alone for so long again. We need such a senior member as you, to put these dismissive people on the right track, because some of them seem to be knowledgeable scientists that can contribute positively to solving this enigma.

 

[vash445]

Was the synth route used to make your meh MDMA from Safrole, the Wacker oxidation and amination with methylamine over Al/Hg ?


So do you think the impurity comes from the Safrole or one of the reagents?


Could it be an MDMA dimer ?

Was the synth route used to make your meh MDMA from Safrole, the Wacker oxidation and amination with methylamine over Al/Hg ? Yes


Mdma dimmer... NMR SHOWED NO DIMMER.. according to 2-3 people reading the NMR...

 

[vash445]

I wish you had concentrated that "almost"-fraction and tested it.


Would it not be a good idea to run the column again and DISCARD the MDMA and identify the concentrated remainder ?

Would it not be a good idea to run the column again and DISCARD the MDMA and identify the concentrated remainder ?

We lost the fractions so we have no idea... trust me THAT WAS THE PLAN... its like you guys dont read this forum... we are hoping he misplaced them... He just doesnt remember where. He knows he has the elute bands... he just isn't sure where he placed them. Hopefully he finds them soon. He wasn't GC/MS certified yet so that's why he stashed them now he can't find them.

 

[vash445]

So do you think the impurity comes from the Safrole or one of the reagents?


I think it just comes from synthesis doesn't matter if it is safrole or glyciate.. or even the route. The problem stems in animation.

My guess is it happens during animation

 

[vash445]

84% is real, or it could be. If you buy pure crystal compound in Amsterdam and take it to Jellinek, when you call for the results, they'll tell you it's 84%. If you take the same sample to Energy Control or saferparty, they'll tell you it's 100%. (Assuming, of course, that it is.) So translated from Dutch, "84%" means 100% pure MDMA*HCl. When I said, "checkpoint's 84% crystal," I meant (nearly) 100% pure MDMA*HCl, nearly the same purity as MAPs and Shulgin.

84% is the .hcl... 100% is the freebase....

Trust me even checkpoint's is only high 90's it isnt 99.9%...

 

[indigoaura]

I step away for a few days...

@vash445 I don't think you should be offended at the suggestion of getting an external confirmation of your findings. In any kind of respectable research, findings have to be replicated in order to be taken seriously. I don't see it as a suggestion of error on your part, but as a way to add further evidence to the argument. Good arguments are supported with as much evidence as possible.

Also, since samples/results have been lost and you are back around to square 1, would it be possible to synth again and repeat the process? Also, are you still planning to consume the product that was cleaned with the column to see if the effects have changed?

As for the MDMA dimer, I thought that was one of the theories tossed around about the dirty NMR results? Was that theory dis-proven?

@mars2025 I am not opposed to trying a Qdance pill, if I could actually wash it and remove the binders and consume it in a safe dosage. I am not taking 300 mg of MDMA at once. Nope. Never done it. Not gonna do it. Friends used to take 2 pills at once, and that was not a road I ever went down. In any case, I will keep my eyes open for Qdance pills for the sake of research.

Your comments about all these observations being due to mental suggestion, or set/setting etc. just do not correlate with the volume of experiences that have been discussed here. There is too much consistency when groups of people all try the same product (especially when those groups are a mix of virgin/experienced users).

@vash445 As for safrole...we really have not spent a lot of time discussing how deforestation has impacted safrole supply. There are many kinds of sassafras trees that produce safrole. Not all of those trees produce the same compounds. From Wikipedia: "Steam distillation of dried root bark produces an essential oil which has a high safrole content, as well as significant amounts of varying other chemicals such as camphor, eugenol (including 5-methoxyeugenol), asarone, and various sesquiterpenes. Many other trees contain similarly high percentages and their extracted oils are sometimes referred to as sassafras oil,[34] which once was extensively used as a fragrance in perfumes and soaps, food and for aromatherapy."

Sassafras - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So...there are relevant questions related to where a sample of safrole came from, what type of tree it was extracted from, and how pure the safrole is. Are there any other compounds in in? Do those other compounds have an effect on synthesis?

Unfortunately, I don't think we can 100% cross safrole off the list of possible issues because not all safrole is exactly the same.

 

[indigoaura]

Le Junk, sir, your name will go down in the history books of MDMA! Tricky part is, them damn pills DO produce some or all of these effects. r/MDMA is full of saucer eyes and I personally observed the same. It's just that the more mental effects are not consistent or something. One time you may feel like it's the happiest moment of your life, and a simple touch feels more pleasurable than sex (tactile enhancement.) Another time the music may sound incredibly good. Or lovey-dovey, empathy, endactic, next day glow and so on. Some/many pills have some degree of these effects for some of the people some of the time!

I have another long-shot theory that one's experience may be somewhat affected by what you're told. If your source says this batch is fire, and you trust the source, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. And if you rolled hard on the same batch, or another batch with the same taste and especially smell, all those associations kick in again to enhance the roll, especially memory recall due to smell. Can an inert compound that merely tastes and smells like someone's long-loved batch of MDMA induce some of the same effects? Depending on the power of the individual's mind, there may be something to this, like Shulgin's story with undissolved sugar.

@mars2025

Here are my issues with these theories...

For some reason, for a good 5+ years, MDMA was a very consistent and reliable experience. Watching a newbie take it was especially consistent. Obviously not going to post for privacy reasons, but I had an 8mm camera. I have videos of 20-25 people rolling face. I have photos. Even if the internal feeling is subjective, I was sometimes sober at parties and I know what rolling people LOOKED like. It had absolutely nothing to do with what people were told. We were often told pills were "the shit" (we didn't say fire back then), and then they were duds and turned out to be DXM or something. It was good or it wasn't. When it was good, the same thing happened every time.

When you have groups of people taking lab tested MDMA and none of them have saucer eyes, and none of them display typical visual rolling "tells," then there is a problem. Its not just that nobody feels like they are rolling, nobody looks like they are rolling.

Why was it so consistent for so long? Why was it that when the product was good, ALL of the people rolled and had the full experience?

Then suddenly, one day, it just becomes a dice roll? "Well, sometimes you roll and sometimes you don't." That doesn't make any sense to me.

I could buy into the tolerance/damage argument if I wasn't seeing the same lackluster responses in MDMA virgins. I would also be more likely to accept it if someone I trusted had product that was magic, and I took it and felt no magic.

Obviously, some people are getting the good stuff. I was at an EDM event and witnessed the classic, visual signs of rolling in a small subsection of the attendees. But there was an obvious line between the majority of the crowd who were standing around spaced out with their arms crossed, and the smaller number of people rubbing each other's bodies and hair, pulling their clothes off, and dancing like fools.

 

[vash445]

@indigoaura Resynthing wont do anything because what if it is magic...

Also he can't even find the repurified stuff so we are back to square 1...

I have access to safrole but who knows if more will be made. We want to figure this out before we proceed to be honest.

Also as far as safrole... safrole is safrole... AND WAS DISTILLED before making MDP2P. It does not matter where that safrole came from.. or what is in it EXCEPT ANTHOLE because the bp is very close and would make PMMA vs MDMA.... But seriously this is not an issue it was made as distilled safrole and was def confirmed safrole of VERY high purity to begin with and no anthole was detected......

Also I'm not offended but for the 100x time WE have no more of the MDMA to test. IF we did I would... Otherwise You are gonna have to take the column results as second confirmation enough. I'm SORRY but that's just how it goes with what we have...

 

[indigoaura]

Resynthing wont do anything because what if it is magic...

That doesn't make sense. If the exact same people make it the exact same way as before, then you should end up with the exact same product. Why would you get a different result when using the same recipe?

"Safrole is safrole" sounds an awful lot like "MDMA is MDMA."

Also i have no idea if he has the repurifyed stuff so we are back to square 1...

What is happening to all the stuff?

 

[vash445]

That doesn't make sense. If the exact same people make it the exact same way as before, then you should end up with the exact same product. Why would you get a different result when using the same recipe?

"Safrole is safrole" sounds an awful lot like "MDMA is MDMA."



What is happening to all the stuff?

"Safrole is safrole" sounds an awful lot like "MDMA is MDMA."


Take it for what you will. Once distilled. It is pure safrole nothing is left.... just like when converting glyciate to PMK it is MDP2P what we do know about the MDMA is that the impurity is messing up NMR... so we know know all MDMA is not equal... This was basically proven MDMA IS MDMA plus some minor impurity... it doesn't matter if it is safrole or PMK glycidate... we do run into inactive issues either way. THE PRECURSOR doesn't matter so SAFROLE IS SAFROLE... Sorry for my confusing rant I do not know how to explain it.


That doesn't make sense. If the exact same people make it the exact same way as before, then you should end up with the exact same product. Why would you get a different result when using the same recipe?

Broken heating mantels, low quality stir bars, effecting the boiling point. The purity of methylamine or benzoquinone because he made the benzoquinone from hydroquinone . There are a lot of factors that change even following the recipe.. Hence GMP production ..... Even simple things like the pressure of humidity/temp of the room can effect certain reactions... He replaced his heating mantel for 1 SO MAKING it exactly the same way thru out the window at that exact second...

Effect of Temperature and Relative Humidity on the Reaction Kinetics of an Oxygen Scavenger Based on Gallic Acid

Effect of Temperature and Relative Humidity on the Reaction Kinetics of an Oxygen Scavenger Based on Gallic Acid

Gallic acid (GA) is a potential oxygen scavenger for food packaging applications. In this study we investigated the effect of temperature and relative humidity (RH) on the reaction kinetics of an oxygen scavenger consisting of GA and sodium carbonate. The reaction was described by a second-order...

www.frontiersin.org

 

[vash445]

What is happening to all the stuff?

I told you it was misplaced. I assure you noone is taking it. He even lost the gram-2 of impure stuff I sent for a while before he cleaned it.

 

[vash445]

buy one hell of EZoo trip

Ive outgrown the "mainstream " fests.... and prefer the HIPPY camping transformational EDM fests... just my preference LIB (lighting in a bottle) over EDC/coachella

 

[Hilopsilo]

https://www.leafly.ca/news/cannabis-101/list-major-cannabinoids-cannabis-effects

Thought you all might find this interesting!

"Most cannabinoids will not get you high
THC is the only plant cannabinoid that you know for sure has clear intoxicating effects on its own. There is some evidence to suggest that THCV may also have intoxicating effects, although whether it does may depend on dose. However, like most other plant cannabinoids, THCV is usually not present in significant quantities in commercial strains and cannabis products.

While most plant cannabinoids are not intoxicating themselves, their presence can influence how THC affects you. The best example of this comes from CBD. Even though it wouldn’t get you high by itself, it influences the way that THC interacts with the CB1 receptors in your endocannabinoid system, and can therefore influence exactly how a cannabis product will affect you.

THCV may also influence THC’s effects. At relatively low doses, THCV appears to diminish THC’s ability to activate CB1 receptors, like CBD. However, at relatively high doses, THCV may start to activate CB1 receptors, like THC. The exact dose that you consume can greatly influence how a compound affects you. But because THCV and the other, lesser-known cannabinoids are generally less abundant in cannabis, they have also been studied much less. There’s a lot more for us to learn"

I know MDMA is a far cry from a plant that grew out of the ground, but I see a parallel between this and the precursor contaminants theory. Subbing weed's natural variation of cannabinoids for the "entourage" of slight (or not so slight) precursor(s) leftover in MDMA. MDMA's version of natural variation could just be the unavoidable array of uncontrolled clandestine factors lol?