What is wrong with the MDMA available today? - v2

[Ambien Powered Rabbit]

I got all the classic effects nearly everytime. I then had a break from 2004 to 2012 and when I got back into the saddle, everything had changed. I've been searching for the good shit ever since and have found it only twice. But the fact I've found it at all shows that it's not me, its the drugs...

Great. Can you please provide the test results from these good batches and the bad ones you have had since? I might be able to help figure out what the chemical difference was.

 

[user666]

I've been searching for the good shit ever since and have found it only twice.

It looks like I found it, too! This week I bought 1g of MDMA HCl clear crystals locally made via the Leuckart reaction (at least that's what the seller says) . Yesterday, I tested 90mg of it on MDMA-naïve 29y.o., 62kg female with no history of stimulant or antidepressant use. I observed:
20min onset, 5h duration, 86% mydriasis, visible trismus, 37.2ºC, 150/100 b.p., 110bpm., energetic, open and plush behavior, responsive to music (danced 1h) later slithering and seeking touch. Blood glucose level elevated 220% @ 2h despite fasting 3h before and during and only salted water consumed. No info on comedown yet.

Stokes spectrogram is below:

A solution of this product does not exhibit any optical rotation in my polarimeter.

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

Great. Can you please provide the test results from these good batches and the bad ones you have had since? I might be able to help figure out what the chemical difference was.

Unfortunately not. All test results were purely subjective. However, the major problem here is that atandard lab tests are so far unable to identify the chemical difference, if any.

 

[indigoaura]

Great. Can you please provide the test results from these good batches and the bad ones you have had since? I might be able to help figure out what the chemical difference was.

I can link you to Drugs Data results for magic and meh product, but there is no data to analyze there other than the Drugs Data webpage (which does not provide much information).

Can your read NMR? At one point, we had a volunteer in the forum who offered to do NMR analysis, and I have one scan from a meh sample. His reliability, however, is a bit in question.

One of the issues we have had is that labs do not want to release the full GCMS data to us. I have a sample out to IEC right now that they are supposed to provide full data for, but I have not received it yet. Do you know of a lab that would provide this data if we send in samples?

 

[indigoaura]

It looks like I found it, too! This week I bought 1g of MDMA HCl clear crystals locally made via the Leuckart reaction (at least that's what the seller says) . Yesterday, I tested 90mg of it on MDMA-naïve 29y.o., 62kg female with no history of stimulant or antidepressant use. I observed:
20min onset, 5h duration, 86% mydriasis, visible trismus, 37.2ºC, 150/100 b.p., 110bpm., energetic, open and plush behavior, responsive to music (danced 1h) later slithering and seeking touch. Blood glucose level elevated 220% @ 2h despite fasting 3h before and during and only salted water consumed. No info on comedown yet.

Stokes spectrogram is below:

A solution of this product does not exhibit any optical rotation in my polarimeter.

Would this same female be willing to try a meh sample in about three months?

 

[user666]

Would this same female be willing to try a meh sample in about three months?

I did not ask, but Meh first and Magic later would make a better test sequence.

 

[indigoaura]

I did not ask, but Meh first and Magic later would make a better test sequence.

Agreed, but there is no way to undo the test that was already done.

 

[user666]

...but there are other virgin Guinea Pigs out there.

 

[G_Chem]

It looks like I found it, too! This week I bought 1g of MDMA HCl clear crystals locally made via the Leuckart reaction (at least that's what the seller says) . Yesterday, I tested 90mg of it on MDMA-naïve 29y.o., 62kg female with no history of stimulant or antidepressant use. I observed:
20min onset, 5h duration, 86% mydriasis, visible trismus, 37.2ºC, 150/100 b.p., 110bpm., energetic, open and plush behavior, responsive to music (danced 1h) later slithering and seeking touch. Blood glucose level elevated 220% @ 2h despite fasting 3h before and during and only salted water consumed. No info on comedown yet.

Stokes spectrogram is below:

A solution of this product does not exhibit any optical rotation in my polarimeter.

Very much appreciate your report! It seems this adds one more tally to the “Leuckart” route being a for sure way to proper product. Curious what the comedown is like...

So how confident are you they were right on the synth route?

-GC

 

[Ambien Powered Rabbit]

Unfortunately not. All test results were purely subjective. However, the major problem here is that even lab tests are so far unable to identify the chemical difference, if any.

So no one knows what MEHDMA is and no test can differentiate it from MDMA?

 

[user666]

So how confident are you they were right on the synth route?

It is only hearsay and I did not separate the product chromatographically before analyzing it, so I have no data about minor impurities that would point to a specific route.

 

[user666]

So no one knows what MEHDMA is and no test can differentiate it from MDMA?

If we had a reliable in-vitro test then the entire issue would go away. So far we have only in-vivo tests....

Also, it is not true that no test can differentiate it. We just did not try all testing methodologies yet.
Note, that whoever performs these tests must have access to the Meh-MDMA and Magic-MDMA that have been tested in-vivo to classify them as Meh and Magic first.

If a potent contaminant is the culprit , then the testing methodology needs to incorporate the separation of a large batch of the product, into its constituent components first ....and then analyzing/identifying each component separately. In my opinion, the separation procedure (e.g. HPLC) should keep the molecules intact in order to avoid the many modes of error, which can be caused by molecular fragmentation, e.g. pyrolytic disproportionation.

 

[indigoaura]

So no one knows what MEHDMA is and no test can differentiate it from MDMA?

This is not an accurate statement. Based on the research articles cited in post 2, there are many ways that synthesis byproducts, dimers, and isobaric derivatives could be identified. However, none of those methods are employed by standard harm reduction labs. Most labs like Drugs Data use GCMS, and GCMS is not enough. The compound mixture would need to be separated and then each component individually tested.

So, I am sure there are many labs that could test and differentiate, but we do not have access to those labs or to that process.

 

[popsweat]

RIP to the qdance crew they were the only beans that consistently gave me magic

 

[indigoaura]

Hoping to be able to update here with some hard data soon.

International Energy Control has received my re-submission of the 80% MDMA sample. They will be re-examining it, specifically looking for synthesis byproducts. If they get good data, then I will be submitting multiple additional meh samples. @G_Chem, if the data is good, then I will finance your submission of the sexy magic sample as well.

This should result in full GCMS data for us to look at.

I am not sure if this 80% sample is the best sample to examine, because out of everything I have tried since 2014, it is the best sample I have had. Top tier meh! BUT we will be able to see what kind of detail they are able to provide.

IF this data is good, then I am going to talk to them about possibly setting up a unified process for all our samples so we could get consistent data to compare with anecdotal reports and see if there is any correlation between byproducts/user experience.

 

[Ambien Powered Rabbit]

This is not an accurate statement. Based on the research articles cited in post 2, there are many ways that synthesis byproducts, dimers, and isobaric derivatives could be identified. However, none of those methods are employed by standard harm reduction labs. Most labs like Drugs Data use GCMS, and GCMS is not enough. The compound mixture would need to be separated and then each component individually tested.

So, I am sure there are many labs that could test and differentiate, but we do not have access to those labs or to that process.

It was actually a question, not a statement. I was asking if anybody knows what MEHDMA is? I am aware that synthesis residues, precursors, isomers etc can be identified and in most cases gcms is sufficient.and would take an unusual set of circumstances for an active adulterant strong enough to overpower mdma in trace quantities coupled with chemical composition/properties which hide it from detection.

@indigoaura please could you give some examples of what you call isobaric derivatives?

 

[indigoaura]

It was actually a question, not a statement. I was asking if anybody knows what MEHDMA is? I am aware that synthesis residues, precursors, isomers etc can be identified and in most cases gcms is sufficient.and would take an unusual set of circumstances for an active adulterant strong enough to overpower mdma in trace quantities coupled with chemical composition/properties which hide it from detection.

@indigoaura please could you give some examples of what you call isobaric derivatives?

Hi, I recommend that you go to post 2 and scroll to the section of the post that shares the research articles on isobaric derivatives. Then, you can go to sci hub and type any of the titles into sci hub and begin reading those articles. That will give you a much better idea of what we are talking about.

Sci-Hub: emancipation and democratisation of knowledge

Sci-Hub website. Get free access to academic journals. Download research papers for free from ScienceDirect, IEEE, Wiley, Springer, Nature and others

sci-hub.st

For you convenience, here is the section of post 2 that is relevant to your question.

Regioisomers and Isobaric Derivatives

In addition to the presence of potentially active synthesis byproducts, the presence of isobaric derivatives could explain why GCMS testing is inadequate at identifying certain contaminants. 3,4-MDMA Isobaries are compounds that have the same molecular mass as 3,4-MDMA and they may appear as 3,4-MDMA in Mass Spectrometry analysis. 3,4-MDMA Regioisomers are compounds that are composed of the same atoms as 3,4-MDMA molecules and thus having the same molecular mass but are structurally rearranged which may make them appear to be 3,4-MDMA in underivatized GC/MS analysis. 3,4-MDMA Enantiomers are compounds that are stereoscopically mirrored/flipped 3,4-MDMA molecules which have the same molecular mass and always appear the same to the Mass Spectrometry analysis; they usually elute at the same time in GC separations, unless a special chiral column is used to separate the enantiomer. These articles discuss these compounds, the advanced testing methodologies needed to successfully separate and identify them, and their presence in samples seized by law enforcement.

• “MASS SPECTRAL AND CHROMATOGRAPHIC STUDIES ON A SERIES OF REGIOISOMERS AND ISOBARIC DERIVATIVES RELATED TO METHYLENEDIOXYMETHAMPHETAMINES” by Tamer Awad (Awad)
• “Regioisomers of 3,4-methylenedioxy-N-methylamphetamine in clandestine ecstasy pills” by Inmaculada Fierro et al. (Fierro)
• “Synthesis and Analytical Profiles for Regioisomeric and Isobaric Amines Related to 3,4-MDMA, MDEA and MBDB: Differentiation of Drug and non-Drug Substances of Mass Spectral Equivalence” by C. Randall Clark (Clark)
• “Mass-Spectrometry-Based Identification of Synthetic Drug Isomers Using Infrared Ion Spectroscopy” by Kranenburg, Ruben F. et al. (Kranenburg)
• “Chromatographic and Mass Spectral Studies on Isobaric and Isomeric Substances Related to 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine” by Laura Aalberg et al. (Aalberg)
• “GC–MS studies on acylated derivatives of 3-methoxy-4-methyl- and 4-methoxy-3-methyl-phenethylamines: Regioisomers related to 3,4-3,4-MDMA” by Tarek Belal, Tamer Awad, Jack DeRuiter, and Randall Clark (Belal)
• “Distinguishing drug isomers in the forensic laboratory: GC–VUV in addition to GC–MS for orthogonal selectivity and the use of library match scores as a new source of information” by Ruben F. Kranenburg (R. e. Kranenburg)
• “Chromatographic and Mass Spectral Studies on Methoxy Methyl Methamphetamines Related to 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine” by Tamer Awad et al. (T. e. Awad)
• “GC–MS and GC–IRD Studies on the Ring Isomers of N-Methyl-2-Methoxyphenyl-3-Butanamines (MPBA) Related to 3,4-3,4-MDMA” by Tamer Awad et al. (T. e. Awad, GC–MS and GC–IRD Studies on the Ring Isomers of N-Methyl-2-Methoxyphenyl-3-Butanamines (MPBA) Related to 3,4-MDMA)
• “The Identification of 3,4-3,4-MDMA from Its Mass Equivalent Isomers and Isobaric Substances Using Fast LC–ESI-MS–MS” by Katja Pihlainen et al. (Pihlainen)

 

[indigoaura]

It was actually a question, not a statement. I was asking if anybody knows what MEHDMA is? I am aware that synthesis residues, precursors, isomers etc can be identified and in most cases gcms is sufficient.and would take an unusual set of circumstances for an active adulterant strong enough to overpower mdma in trace quantities coupled with chemical composition/properties which hide it from detection.

@indigoaura please could you give some examples of what you call isobaric derivatives?

Also,

"I was asking if anybody knows what MEHDMA is?" No, we are not yet aware. That is one of our goals.

"I am aware that synthesis residues, precursors, isomers etc can be identified and in most cases gcms is sufficient." No, that is not accurate. The research articles indicate that synthesis byproducts are present in nearly all samples, and yet we hardly ever see them noted in GCMS results from harm reduction labs. The articles also go into detail about how complicated and difficult it is to extract some of these compounds in order to analyze them. It is not straight forward, and no, they do not usually show up on GCMS.

"and would take an unusual set of circumstances for an active adulterant strong enough to overpower mdma in trace quantities coupled with chemical composition/properties which hide it from detection." From my understanding of the research, it would only take a compound that has a greater affinity to monoamine transporters. It does not have to overpower the MDMA, it just needs to block the MDMA from taking action. The Pfil paper shows this process, and how two compounds they examined blocked the monoamine transporters.

 

[indigoaura]

Here is another post relevant to your question, @Ambien Powered Rabbit

Factors That Make Each MDMA Batch and Experience Unique

Factors That Make Each MDMA Batch and Experience Unique In the following thread I’ll detail what I believe to be the main variables that come into play when determining how/why a certain MDMA batch or experience felt the way it did. This is a topic I’ve been researching for about a decade...

www.bluelight.org

 

[Jmoda]

Also,

"I was asking if anybody knows what MEHDMA is?" No, we are not yet aware. That is one of our goals.

"I am aware that synthesis residues, precursors, isomers etc can be identified and in most cases gcms is sufficient." No, that is not accurate. The research articles indicate that synthesis byproducts are present in nearly all samples, and yet we hardly ever see them noted in GCMS results from harm reduction labs. The articles also go into detail about how complicated and difficult it is to extract some of these compounds in order to analyze them. It is not straight forward, and no, they do not usually show up on GCMS.

"and would take an unusual set of circumstances for an active adulterant strong enough to overpower mdma in trace quantities coupled with chemical composition/properties which hide it from detection." From my understanding of the research, it would only take a compound that has a greater affinity to MAO transporters. It does not have to overpower the MDMA, it just needs to block the MDMA from taking action. The Pfil paper shows this process, and how two compounds they examined blocked the MAO transporters.

I recall reading about someones trip report, the name of the drug alludes me right now, but i think it did sonething along the lines of affecting an moai-b more than maoi-a after waiting some time and that made their roll super strong. Something about maoi-b being fine in conjunction....


Could totally be wrong on the moai-a and moai-b but ill try to find it...




Edit: found it




Pretty interesting stuff...sorry if this was posted before, but wonder if this is the mechanism we are looking for. MAOI-B.


Magic mdma to me definitely feels like its almost modulating the release of serotonin better. Whereas medium-mdms feel like it just completely blasts it out all at once and then thereafter drops off....magic just keeps u in the zone and pumps it out in waves.