What is wrong with the MDMA available today? - v2

[G_Chem]

To be fair that’s not what you said the first time around.. Might wanna watch your words so killers like me don’t need to go around clarifying.

“but also exhibits modest reuptake inhibition effects as well (which is why redosing MDMA more than once is mostly ineffective, causing more neurotoxicity and less desirable effects each time…”

MDMA’s reuptake inhibition has nothing to do with its neurotoxicity and I question if it’s the reason tolerance builds immediately after the first dose either but I don’t know enough about that to say. I believe alterations in metabolism may effect that as well. If the SRI capability of MDMA was the reason then I think I would feel weakened effects rolling two nights in a row with the R-isomer likely still hanging around to some extent. More often than not that second experience is just as good

And to pull the know it all act one more time, it’s actually the the glutathione and NAC conjugated metabolites alpha-methyl-dopamine and it’s methylated brother. Or was that implied too?

Major metabolites of(±)3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine (MDA) do not mediate its toxic effects on brain serotonin neurons

The two major metabolites of(±)3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine (MDA), alpha-methyldopamine (α-MeDA) and3-O-methyl-α-methyldopamine (3-O-Me-α-MeDA), were…

www.sciencedirect.com

-GC

 

[simstim]

I wonder what the binding affinities are for alpha methyl dopamine. Is it orally active? Does it produce a roll?

I've never seen any studies like that on other 3,4-dihydro phenylamines either.

 

[AutoTripper]

We used to say, cocaine rules all. No matter what drug your on cocaine will overpower it. Something interesting to me about that aspect.

It limits the consciousness. Restricts it's bandwidth. Reduces it right down. More than any downer, ironically.

Wide awake and pretty unconscious in one technical sense.

Because there is no way that crack cocaine should instantly nullify an LSD trip.

Or so I thought growing up. Cocaine resets the consciousness. To standby lol.

 

[unodelacosa]

To be fair that’s not what you said the first time around..

In my opinion, it was. I guess I worded it poorly though if it left room for alternative interpretations. My bad.

Might wanna watch your words so killers like me don’t need to go around clarifying.

Something tells me you like to do this anyway. I understand though; when you're intelligent and knowledgeable, it's nice to get some recognition for this, and it's normal to crave this.

“but also exhibits modest reuptake inhibition effects as well (which is why redosing MDMA more than once is mostly ineffective, causing more neurotoxicity and less desirable effects each time…”

So the "which is why…" portion of that statement was referencing the first clause in the sentence, the part you didn't include before the word "but". I guess I should've worded that better ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

MDMA’s reuptake inhibition has nothing to do with its neurotoxicity and I question if it’s the reason tolerance builds immediately after the first dose either but I don’t know enough about that to say.

That's what I take from it, but I too am reticent to conclude this with 100% confidence. Seems like a reasonable enough theory though, right? MDMA tolerance comes on strongly, almost like a tachyphylaxis response.

I believe alterations in metabolism may effect that as well.

Sure, of course. It's just like sensitivity to grapefruit juice w/r/t exhibiting enzyme CYP450 – there is a lot of interpersonal variance from subject to subject, and this likely plays a role in the effectstasy as well.

If the SRI capability of MDMA was the reason then I think I would feel weakened effects rolling two nights in a row with the R-isomer likely still hanging around to some extent. More often than not that second experience is just as good

That's way too subjective to make any conclusions like this though…

And to pull the know it all act one more time, it’s actually the the glutathione and NAC conjugated metabolites alpha-methyl-dopamine and it’s methylated brother. Or was that implied too?

Not implied; I literally said: "The toxicity comes about on account of alpha-methyl-dopamine". I later referenced it slightly differently as 3,4-dihydroxy-alpha-methyl-phenethylamine, but as I'm sure you already know, that is the same compound, given that dopamine is 3,4-dihydroxyphenethylamine. This link that you provided states that these compounds themselves are not responsible, but rather that “either a minor metabolite is responsible or that alternate mechanisms are involved.” This must be what you were trying to say, which is—to an extent—belaboring the point. So, the paper you referenced was published in early 1991. Six years later, a paper was published seemingly establishing 2,5-Bis-(glutathion-S-yl)-alpha-methyldopamine as the real culprit: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9128836/

Taken directly from Wikipedia: “Alpha-methyldopamine readily oxidizes to the o-quinone and reacts with endogenous antioxidants in the body, such as glutathione (GSH). It was demonstrated by Miller, et al. (1997), that 5-(glutathion-S-yl)-alpha-methyldopamine and 5-(N-acetylcystein-S-yl)-alpha-methyldopamine produced similar effects to the parent compound, but did not induce neurotoxicity when injected intracerebroventricularly. However the derivative metabolite 2,5-bis-(glutathion-S-yl)-alpha-methyldopamine (injected at ≈1.5x the usual per-kg MDMA dose) did in fact induce neurotoxicity, providing initial evidence that this metabolite may be the source of neuronal toxicity following the administration of MDA and MDMA, and the subsequent reduction in 5-HT (Serotonin) axons.”

I wonder what the binding affinities are for alpha methyl dopamine. Is it orally active? Does it produce a roll?

I'm not sure, but my best guess is that it's speedy causing an amphetamine-like response, given that it's literally an amphetamine. Also, I know from manufacturing MDMA, that when the chemist isomerizes safrole to isosafrole via reflux in the presence of a base like NaOH, if the reflux is run too hot, the 3,4-methylenedioxy ring from safrole is broken open into a 3,4-dihydroxy structure and that the effects of this—when brought to ketone intermediate and then reductively aminated—are known to be speedy in humans. It also produces an off-white crystal, and has been theorized to be a reason behind "speedy MDMA" vs "smacky MDMA", if you've ever heard those street terms used...

I've never seen any studies like that on other 3,4-dihydro phenylamines either.

No? The most obvious are dopamine, noradrenaline and adrenaline. In general, these compounds are known as catecholamines, with the dihydroxy component consisting of the benzene ring and the two hydroxyl groups. Here's more info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catecholamine

 

[unodelacosa]

Because there is no way that crack cocaine should instantly nullify an LSD trip.

LSD activates a wide array of neurotransmitters—scores of dopamine and serotonin sites, plus sigma receptors, norepinephrine, epinephrine, etc. So it's oftentimes difficult to suppress the psychedelic effects of an LSD trip, although benzodiazepines certainly seem to help out. However, cocaine has pronounced serotonergic activity, acting as a reuptake inhibitor, and I think this interferes with psychedelic drugs' primary function at 5-HT2A and 5-HT2C, specifically. This is speculative on my part though; I don't have any conclusive studies to point to as evidence, but I haven't really searched yet for it either. If anyone can elucidate the matter for us, that would be welcomed…

 

[AutoTripper]

LSD activates a wide array of neurotransmitters—scores of dopamine and serotonin sites, plus sigma receptors, norepinephrine, epinephrine, etc. So it's oftentimes difficult to suppress the psychedelic effects of an LSD trip, although benzodiazepines certainly seem to help out. However, cocaine has pronounced serotonergic activity, acting as a reuptake inhibitor, and I think this interferes with psychedelic drugs' primary function at 5-HT2A and 5-HT2C, specifically. This is speculative on my part though; I don't have any conclusive studies to point to as evidence, but I haven't really searched yet for it either. If anyone can elucidate the matter for us, that would be welcomed…

This is just something I witnessed and experienced firsthand myself undeniably and to my surprise at the time this was decades ago and I've never exactly thought about it deeply because it just kind of seems intuitive to me that it's a matter of consciousness.

Because cocaine does generally lower consciousness and awareness it removes self-awareness to a degree and also perception of surroundings in a way it's almost like perception filters.

Even though you would expect on paper a benzodiazepine to kill a trip this does not happen with me at all if I wanted to kill a trip and I did not have allergies and anything was possible crack cocaine would be in the medicine cabinet for that task.

This is indeed something which is barely discussed and for which there probably is no evidence as such but is a phenomenon I both witnessed and experienced first hand.

Heroin alternatively, Has the potential to actually accelerate a bad trip and turn it into a full on hallucinatory nightmare.

 

[Deleted member 521610]

had one of the best mdma experinces of my life last night, this stuff has no comedown aswell. Really connected on a deep level to this girl i didnt really know, was some deep healing and things coming out

 

[NewTopic]

I've now got 4 different batches of MDMA, one being black, one being orange / tan, one almost clear and one champagne. I'll be sure to let you know which one has the best reaction come December. Photos

 

[NewTopic]

had one of the best mdma experinces of my life last night, this stuff has no comedown aswell. Really connected on a deep level to this girl i didnt really know, was some deep healing and things coming out

Those classic MDMA vibes.
One thing with good MDMA the comedown is just smooth as silk, I feel like it's similar to LSD.

When you have bad LSD the come down is just so enduring where as when it's good your having a good time still and reflecting on everything.

 

[Phobos]

I've now got 4 different batches of MDMA, one being black, one being orange / tan, one almost clear and one champagne. I'll be sure to let you know which one has the best reaction come December. Photos

Have you taken the black and the orange type before?
I'd do an acetone wash on those for sure.

 

[RomanJ]

I've now got 4 different batches of MDMA, one being black, one being orange / tan, one almost clear and one champagne. I'll be sure to let you know which one has the best reaction come December. Photos

That black MDMA doesn't look like MDMA at all to me. They don't even look like crystals, more like gravel or coal or something!
Interested to know how they test and the effects.

 

[NewTopic]

I've had the orange before and wasen't bad, wasen't amazing though.
The black MDMA is coated in something for 'stealth purposes' when importing, but someone sent it to Energy Control with 87% purity and smells the goods!
I'm interested to see what the effects are for that one, but the very clear one I'll probably do and get someone else to eat the black stuff that way they aren't mixed to see individual effects.

 

[Negi]

As a start you could acetone wash all the batches. People in the thread have reported it doesn't make a change to "mehDMA", but it would help rule out dosing irregularities. Seeing the loss percentages on each batch would also give a general idea about how much care the producers put into purity.

 

[unodelacosa]

As a start you could acetone wash all the batches. People in the thread have reported it doesn't make a change to "mehDMA", but it would help rule out dosing irregularities. Seeing the loss percentages on each batch would also give a general idea about how much care the producers put into purity.

I've had "black molly" in the past that was as black as charcoal, smelled of sassafras, and/but I was still afraid to dose it. So I washed it with cold, pure acetone and found it didn't remove all of the discoloration. Instead, it faded to a washed-out blue-ish tint. I took some of it at that point, and it was fire. About half of it I decided to recrystallize from near-boiling, anhydrous isopropyl alcohol and anhydrous acetone, both made anhydrous by salting-out + a drying agent (MgSO₄). Rinsed the resulting crystals one last time with acetone, and that returned some aesthetically pleasing crystals. IIRC the yield after this was ~80%; however, the acetone might not have been completely anhydrous I discovered after letting the rinse-through evaporate. It formed into dark crystals that I wound up packing into a few size 3 capsules, but to this day I do not have the balls to dose this evil-looking shit; I can't lie, lol.

 

[PsychedelicSummer]

Yesterday I once again tried a new batch MDMA from DN with good reviews (125 mg + 70 mg). It was better than most MehDMA but without significant euforia or tactile enhancement. It did provide enhanced empathy and mydriasis similar of what I get from psychedelic phenethylamines.

An hour or two in I snorted 8 mg of 2C-B HBr wihout any effect. That is my way of making me 100% sure that it is MehDMA. Than, after 4,5-5 h since redose, I snorted about 50 mg of ketamine without any other apparent effect than a bit wobbly legs.

The MehDMA seemed to block, or severely reduce, the effects of the ketamine. So MehDMA appears to block/reduce the effects of not only psychedelics, but dissociatives too. Can anyone confirm from their own experience?

If correct, it is yet another clue to what is wrong with todays MDMA.

(I don't think it is of much relevance, but I also ingested some 1,4-BDO, also with reduced effects)

 

[NewTopic]

I've had "black molly" in the past that was as black as charcoal, smelled of sassafras, and/but I was still afraid to dose it. So I washed it with cold, pure acetone and found it didn't remove all of the discoloration. Instead, it faded to a washed-out blue-ish tint. I took some of it at that point, and it was fire. About half of it I decided to recrystallize from near-boiling, anhydrous isopropyl alcohol and anhydrous acetone, both made anhydrous by salting-out + a drying agent (MgSO₄). Rinsed the resulting crystals one last time with acetone, and that returned some aesthetically pleasing crystals. IIRC the yield after this was ~80%; however, the acetone might not have been completely anhydrous I discovered after letting the rinse-through evaporate. It formed into dark crystals that I wound up packing into a few size 3 capsules, but to this day I do not have the balls to dose this evil-looking shit; I can't lie, lol.

Funny you say about the blueish tint, because on majority of the black MDMA I have you can see a blueish hue coming from it as well, almost like a blue black similar to hair dye.
I'm also a bit worried to take it but I mean, for the love of science.

 

[unodelacosa]

Yesterday I once again tried a new batch MDMA from DN with good reviews (125 mg + 70 mg). It was better than most MehDMA but without significant euforia or tactile enhancement. It did provide enhanced empathy and mydriasis similar of what I get from psychedelic phenethylamines.

Did you do any presumptive testing? Did you have the Marquis reagent test on-hand perhaps?

An hour or two in I snorted 8 mg of 2C-B HBr wihout any effect.

Ok so firstly, that isn't a large dose, as 5 mg is the reported threshold and a moderate dose occurs @ 15 - 25 mg. Secondly, the hydrobromide isn't as potent, mg for mg, as the hydrochloride salt. Thirdly, there's bound to be some cross-tolerance between a serotonergic drug like MDMA—or an analogue mimic of same—and another serotonergic like 2C-B, at least enough that 8 mg insufflated might not manifest its effects very clearly. Had you dosed ~20 mg to no effect, and assuming this was legit 2C-B.HBr that would be different. But this has too many other factors to rule out.

That is my way of making me 100% sure that it is MehDMA.

I appreciate what you're saying, but now make the rest of us 100% sure, too. Problem is: right now this conclusion is based on one person's anecdotal report.

Than, after 4,5-5 h since redose, I snorted about 50 mg of ketamine without any other apparent effect than a bit wobbly legs.

Fifty mg isn't a light dose, but it's certainly not very heavy either. That response does seem lackluster, but correlation does not prove causation, ya know… Perhaps it was weak or cut Ketamine? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The MehDMA seemed to block, or severely reduce, the effects of the ketamine.

I can't think of any drugs that block phenethylamines like 2C-B.HBr and NMDA-receptor antagonists like Ketamine.HCl. Can you?

So MehDMA appears to block/reduce the effects of not only psychedelics, but dissociatives too.

This assumes that all "mehDMA" is the same compound. I'll bet there are a variety of compounds that fit the bill… I doubt any of them block both phenethylamines and NMDA receptor antagonists, but I suppose it's not impossible.

Can anyone confirm from their own experience?

Whenever I take other drugs with MDMA, I generally need more than usual to get it all into action together, so to speak. I candy-flipped this past Sat. night, and found the 3 hits of acid I took didn't blow my mind like it normally can. Each hit was 110 µg of potent acid from a reputable producer/chemist. I managed to K-hole twice though, each time splitting 100 mg into two rails. Quite lovely. The K was racemic, FWIW… I have some Esketamine (purportedly, and seemingly as well) I'm fairly sure wouldn't have been quite strong enough to go into any significant k-holes. So to me, if things were weakened a bit due to serotonin cross-tolerance with MDMA or something vaguely similar, that checks out in my book but doesn't confirm the existence of a rogue, mind-altering element that prevents euphoria…

If correct, it is yet another clue to what is wrong with todays MDMA.

Hey, kudos to you for qualifying the statement with an "if" clause, for reals. Because I disagree that it's a real clue of anything – I think it's a bit of an accidental red herring – and I disagree that there's something universally wrong with all of “today's MDMA”. While there is shitty MDMA out there – either through analogue substitution or substandard purity or whatever – it does not mean all MDMA everywhere is shit. I will say this: the U.K. seems particularly plagued with garbage MDMA based on what I've read from most Brits' accounts of MDMA quality in recent times.

(I don't think it is of much relevance, but I also ingested some 1,4-BDO, also with reduced effects)

So does it seem more likely that “mehDMA” blocks the actions of phenethylamines, ketamine/dissos, and GABA-ergic drugs such as GBL, too… or is maybe just something to do with you, personally? Maybe your particular biome that day, or enzymology make-up or whatever was just off or something along those lines… It's not that easy to rule out every possibility here, I think, unfortunately. Or I'm just overly skeptical? I appreciate your line of thought and approach all the same

Funny you say about the blueish tint, because on majority of the black MDMA I have you can see a blueish hue coming from it as well, almost like a blue black similar to hair dye.
I'm also a bit worried to take it but I mean, for the love of science.

Yeah I mean the first-pass metabolism is at least a bit of a filtration against possible toxicities on some level. It would just be nice to know what that is first…

 

[PsychedelicSummer]

Did you do any presumptive testing? Did you have the Marquis reagent test on-hand perhaps?

Yes, Marquis went straight to black without smoke.

Ok so firstly, that isn't a large dose, as 5 mg is the reported threshold and a moderate dose occurs @ 15 - 25 mg. Secondly, the hydrobromide isn't as potent, mg for mg, as the hydrochloride salt. Thirdly, there's bound to be some cross-tolerance between a serotonergic drug like MDMA—or an analogue mimic of same—and another serotonergic like 2C-B, at least enough that 8 mg insufflated might not manifest its effects very clearly. Had you dosed ~20 mg to no effect, and assuming this was legit 2C-B.HBr that would be different. But this has too many other factors to rule out.

I've consumed about 3 g of 2C-B over the years, so I'm very familiar with its dose response curve. About 1,5 years ago I tried to flip with MDMA+150 mcg AL-LAD+30 mg 2C-B insufflated. All it did was making everything very cartoonish. No euphoria, no psychedelic head space, no tactile enhancement. Since than I don't want to waste a lot of material. Normally 8 mg of 2C-B insufflated has very apparent effects to me. And I'm not the only one experiencing that MehDMA reduces/cancels the effects of 2C-B and other psychedelics. Though I've never combined real MDMA with 2C-B, the reports I've read (at least dated pre MehDMA) states a synergestic effect between the substances and recommends a lower dose of 2C-B than normal.

I appreciate what you're saying, but now make the rest of us 100% sure, too. Problem is: right now this conclusion is based on one person's anecdotal report.

Others have reported the same phenomena in this thread as well as on reddit and other places. So it is not one persons report, albeit anecdotal. And it must be at least the forth time I experienced it (different batches of MDMA each time).

Fifty mg isn't a light dose, but it's certainly not very heavy either. That response does seem lackluster, but correlation does not prove causation, ya know… Perhaps it was weak or cut Ketamine? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The dose was low, but I know that strength was OK from previous samplings. But I'm much less certain regarding the hypthesis that MehDMA inhibits the effect of ketamine. That's why I asked if someone can confirm. I've never combined good MDMA with ketamine, so can't compare. But I think I've read that one should reduce the dosage of K when kitty flipping.

I can't think of any drugs that block phenethylamines like 2C-B.HBr and NMDA-receptor antagonists like Ketamine.HCl. Can you?

No, that is why I was surprised. It sure don't make sense.

This assumes that all "mehDMA" is the same compound. I'll bet there are a variety of compounds that fit the bill… I doubt any of them block both phenethylamines and NMDA receptor antagonists, but I suppose it's not impossible.

Does it? Badly synthesized MDMA surely can contain many different synthesis byproducts in ratios varying from synth to synth.

Whenever I take other drugs with MDMA, I generally need more than usual to get it all into action together, so to speak. I candy-flipped this past Sat. night, and found the 3 hits of acid I took didn't blow my mind like it normally can. Each hit was 110 µg of potent acid from a reputable producer/chemist. I managed to K-hole twice though, each time splitting 100 mg into two rails. Quite lovely. The K was racemic, FWIW… I have some Esketamine (purportedly, and seemingly as well) I'm fairly sure wouldn't have been quite strong enough to go into any significant k-holes. So to me, if things were weakened a bit due to serotonin cross-tolerance with MDMA or something vaguely similar, that checks out in my book but doesn't confirm the existence of a rogue, mind-altering element that prevents euphoria…

Assuming you've got real MDMA, no surpise you could hole. I was under the impression that most people reduce the amount of acid they take when candy-flipping due to synergy. But I've never candy-flipped (due to not being able to find real MDMA).

Hey, kudos to you for qualifying the statement with an "if" clause, for reals. Because I disagree that it's a real clue of anything – I think it's a bit of an accidental red herring – and I disagree that there's something universally wrong with all of “today's MDMA”. While there is shitty MDMA out there – either through analogue substitution or substandard purity or whatever – it does not mean all MDMA everywhere is shit. I will say this: the U.K. seems particularly plagued with garbage MDMA based on what I've read from most Brits' accounts of MDMA quality in recent times.

I'm sure there's good MDMA around and my impression is that the bad stuff is more common in Europe (where I live). Most of what I've bought has ben advertised as Dutch, but that says nothing.

So does it seem more likely that “mehDMA” blocks the actions of phenethylamines, ketamine/dissos, and GABA-ergic drugs such as GBL, too… or is maybe just something to do with you, personally? Maybe your particular biome that day, or enzymology make-up or whatever was just off or something along those lines… It's not that easy to rule out every possibility here, I think, unfortunately. Or I'm just overly skeptical? I appreciate your line of thought and approach all the same

If a friend didn't experience the same, that would be my conclusion too. I still can roll on 3-FEA though. I do appreciate your skepticism. Keep it going!

Yeah I mean the first-pass metabolism is at least a bit of a filtration against possible toxicities on some level. It would just be nice to know what that is first…

As I've experienced real MDMA in 1987 & 2016, it should not be anything wrong with my metabolism, at least not genetic. About half of the aproximately 10 different batches/pills I've tried the last 5 years have been tried by a friend with similar effects. Though sometimes I ponder if some other - legal or illegal - substance may have damaged/changed someting in me. But I don't find that hypothesis likely as the friend who has sampled my MehDMA don't experiment with a plethora of substaces like I do.

 

[unodelacosa]

Yes, Marquis went straight to black without smoke.

Any purplish tint to it? Not that that guarantees anything, I just usually associate it with fire MDMA.

I've consumed about 3 g of 2C-B over the years, so I'm very familiar with its dose response curve.

I don't doubt this, and I too am very familiar with this particular compound (2C-B). I guess I'm surprised you get much out of an 8 mg dose, but the more I think about it… 2C-B is really good about not being very cross-tolerant with other psychedelics for whatever reason… Perhaps it's the affinity for 5HT2C over 5HT2A (IIRC). Yeah, I dunno, man…

About 1,5 years ago

Btw, this is how I knew you were European most likely, because in North America we reverse the roll of the comma and the period (or “full stop” in British parlance) in math. Or, err, I mean: maths.

I tried to flip with MDMA+150 mcg AL-LAD+30 mg 2C-B insufflated.

I suppose you prefer AL-LAD to LSD or it's just more available to you? Also: how do you tolerate insufflation of 2C-B? Even the hydrobromide fucking stings like a mofo… and the HCl is like getting kicked in the face by a psychedelic horse.

All it did was making everything very cartoonish. No euphoria, no psychedelic head space, no tactile enhancement. Since than I don't want to waste a lot of material. Normally 8 mg of 2C-B insufflated has very apparent effects to me.

Yeah I suppose 8 mg—when insufflated—is bit more potent.

And I'm not the only one experiencing that MehDMA reduces/cancels the effects of 2C-B and other psychedelics.

Yeah but we need concrete evidence that's consistently reproducible in a few established, respected labs. No offense, but all the anecdotal evidence in the world still doesn't prove anything scientifically, b/c once again: correlation does not imply causation.

Though I've never combined real MDMA with 2C-B, the reports I've read (at least dated pre MehDMA) states a synergestic effect between the substances and recommends a lower dose of 2C-B than normal.

This is basically what Dr. Shulgin suggests in PiHKAL. He calls it "piggybacking" instead of the more common term for it: "candyflipping". There's also "trolling" which is a portmanteau of "tripping" and "rolling", and it means you took both drugs at the same time rather than pregame with the MDMA and then later drop the psychedelic – Shulgin's suggestion was 2C-B, but almost any psychedelic will do here.

However, for me, with both 2C-B and with LSD, I don't trip as hard as I normally do unless I bump the dosage up a little. I can only speculate it all has something to do with spent presynaptic 5-HT.

Others have reported the same phenomena in this thread as well as on reddit and other places. So it is not one persons report, albeit anecdotal. And it must be at least the forth time I experienced it (different batches of MDMA each time).

I'm sure these things are true and that there is a valid explanation. All I'm saying is: you don't know why for sure yet, because: science. Also, how many reports are we talking about total here in your best estimate. I'm guessing it's not enough people to be clinically significant yet.

The dose was low, but I know that strength was OK from previous samplings. But I'm much less certain regarding the hypthesis that MehDMA inhibits the effect of ketamine. That's why I asked if someone can confirm.

And that's what I'm saying. I've had garbage-ass, shitty MehDMA that went black on the Marquis test (though I didn't send it to EC or anything), but was a super weak, lackluster, headache-inducing shitty rollercoaster of a high. But how could I possibly know if this imposter MDMA is the same as yours? Regardless if someone has or hasn't had the same experience of a lackluster MDMA roll followed by a seeming blockade of the actions of a disso, there are WAY to many other factors you can't rule out there.

I've never combined good MDMA with ketamine, so can't compare.

Well… fuck, can you get good MDA at least? I mean for chrissakes, is the MDMA scene that fucked up in Europe?

But I think I've read that one should reduce the dosage of K when kitty flipping.

Most things are going to suggest this in order to err on the side of caution. If you're out in the club rolling and you do a couple key bumps of some good K, it makes your head blow up and you get all mashed face and mong-like, lol. It's a great time. So, that's true. But nothing is better than at the end of the night after rolling and/or tripping, to go to a friend's place or a safe afterparty and just K-hole like a bastard.

No, that is why I was surprised. It sure don't make sense.

Does it? Badly synthesized MDMA surely can contain many different synthesis byproducts in ratios varying from synth to synth.

Well aware. You should know that I've manufactured MDMA quite a bit in the past using two different techniques to produce MDP-2-P and then a preferred route to either MDA or MDMA (and even once a batch of MDE just for shits). There are a handful of other compounds I've synthesized as well – this was ~20 years ago – probably the most notable of which was DMMDA-2 and DMMDMA-2 from Indian Dill Seed oil's Dillapiole constituent. Higher boiling point than safrole, but otherwise the process was mostly the same to bring it to the ketone intermediate and then aminating it.

Assuming you've got real MDMA, no surpise you could hole.

I still can't fathom what kind of MDMA imposter substance could possibly blockade the action of Ketamine… Maybe a weird disso like 3-CL-PCP, I guess? Wouldn't feel much like MDMA though…

I was under the impression that most people reduce the amount of acid they take when candy-flipping due to synergy. But I've never candy-flipped (due to not being able to find real MDMA).

Well, I don't reduce the amount of a psychedelic I take following MDMA… and I've always found that I need a bit more. At the same time, the effects themselves synergize nicely, but they don't potentiate each other necessarily. Does that make sense? Also, you might spell that word, "synergise" I'm guessing…Admittedly, the American way looks a little dumb, but oh well. I still think it's weird that the letter Z is called "Zee" in the U.S. and "Zed" in the U.K. …

I'm sure there's good MDMA around and my impression is that the bad stuff is more common in Europe (where I live). Most of what I've bought has ben advertised as Dutch, but that says nothing.

Yeah I know, it really doesn't mean shit. Dealers lie all the time about their sources and their product. Take a holiday to the states, mate, and check out a city with a thriving underground dance music scene like Los Angeles, New York, Miami, or Las Vegas. Find some reputable rolls and see if that doesn't seem obviously and clearly different. Or Australia and New Zealand seemingly have the connect on fire shit… Guess you might need to look outside your area and/or consider sourcing from somewhere other than the dark net markets, which are known for their sketchy characters (though admittedly, super goddamn useful)…

If a friend didn't experience the same, that would be my conclusion too.

Don't underestimate the power of placebo, suggestion, and shared “superconscious” experiences, if you will. I think it's wise to remain skeptical.

I still can roll on 3-FEA though.

Oh really? You roll on 3-FEA? I kinda dismissed it as another vaguely shitty stim like 4-FMA or 2-FA (however, note: 4-FA and 2-FMA are pretty good drugs though). Is the roll kinda like 4-FA, more like methylone, or pretty close to MDMA?

I do appreciate your skepticism. Keep it going!

Thanks for maintaining a good attitude while we disagree on the point. I admire someone who takes disagreement in stride.

As I've experienced real MDMA in 1987 & 2016, it should not be anything wrong with my metabolism, at least not genetic.

You rolled in 1987? Goddamn. What were you hanging out with Paul Oakenfold, Danny Rampling, and Nicky Holloway in Ibiza, monging out to acid house at Heaven in Charing Cross? Let me find out you're Pete Tong, lol. Seriously though, that's gotta be a good story…

 

[PsychedelicSummer]

Any purplish tint to it? Not that that guarantees anything, I just usually associate it with fire MDMA.

No. Therefore I wrote straight to black. :^) And mine and others experiences seem to agree with your experience. If a bit of purple, better chances of it being magic.

I don't doubt this, and I too am very familiar with this particular compound (2C-B). I guess I'm surprised you get much out of an 8 mg dose, but the more I think about it… 2C-B is really good about not being very cross-tolerant with other psychedelics for whatever reason… Perhaps it's the affinity for 5HT2C over 5HT2A (IIRC). Yeah, I dunno, man…

To me, 8 mg insufflated is about the same as 15 mg orally. Enough to get effects easily distinguishable from placebo.

Btw, this is how I knew you were European most likely, because in North America we reverse the roll of the comma and the period (or “full stop” in British parlance) in math. Or, err, I mean: maths.

I suppose you prefer AL-LAD to LSD or it's just more available to you? Also: how do you tolerate insufflation of 2C-B? Even the hydrobromide fucking stings like a mofo… and the HCl is like getting kicked in the face by a psychedelic horse.

No preference, all depending on setting. If out and about or not wanting people thinking that I'm stranger than I am, AL-LAD or 2C-B are surely better choices than LSD or 2C-E. Yes, insufflating any salt of 2C-B hurt as hell. Therefore I usually boof it nowdays. But if I stagger 2C-B HBr in say 2-4 mg bumps with 5-10 min between bumps, it is bearable for a masochist. At least it does not burn holes in my mucous membranes like 2C-T-21 does.

Yeah I suppose 8 mg—when insufflated—is bit more potent.

Yeah but we need concrete evidence that's consistently reproducible in a few established, respected labs. No offense, but all the anecdotal evidence in the world still doesn't prove anything scientifically, b/c once again: correlation does not imply causation.

Well, it sometimes MAY imply, albeit not prove.

This is basically what Dr. Shulgin suggests in PiHKAL. He calls it "piggybacking" instead of the more common term for it: "candyflipping". There's also "trolling" which is a portmanteau of "tripping" and "rolling", and it means you took both drugs at the same time rather than pregame with the MDMA and then later drop the psychedelic – Shulgin's suggestion was 2C-B, but almost any psychedelic will do here.

However, for me, with both 2C-B and with LSD, I don't trip as hard as I normally do unless I bump the dosage up a little. I can only speculate it all has something to do with spent presynaptic 5-HT.

Would be nice to hear others experiences here. Do you take more, less or the same amount of psychedelic when flipping?

I'm sure these things are true and that there is a valid explanation. All I'm saying is: you don't know why for sure yet, because: science. Also, how many reports are we talking about total here in your best estimate. I'm guessing it's not enough people to be clinically significant yet.

Haven't counted, but not more than 10 from what I remember. Though I guess it would be easy to find more if looking through reddit. So from a science perspective it is worth nothing, except for maybe generating hypothesis we can later test scientifically.

And that's what I'm saying. I've had garbage-ass, shitty MehDMA that went black on the Marquis test (though I didn't send it to EC or anything), but was a super weak, lackluster, headache-inducing shitty rollercoaster of a high. But how could I possibly know if this imposter MDMA is the same as yours? Regardless if someone has or hasn't had the same experience of a lackluster MDMA roll followed by a seeming blockade of the actions of a disso, there are WAY to many other factors you can't rule out there.

I know. Still, if hundreds of people would confirm, it surely tells us something, right?

Well… fuck, can you get good MDA at least? I mean for chrissakes, is the MDMA scene that fucked up in Europe?

Harder to find for sure, but I do think what I have is legit. When I combined with oral THC and a psychedelic, I had the most believable hallucinations I've ever had. And absolutely no difference if I had my eyes open or close. Very weird experience. Very clearheaded also.

Most things are going to suggest this in order to err on the side of caution. If you're out in the club rolling and you do a couple key bumps of some good K, it makes your head blow up and you get all mashed face and mong-like, lol. It's a great time. So, that's true. But nothing is better than at the end of the night after rolling and/or tripping, to go to a friend's place or a safe afterparty and just K-hole like a bastard.

:^)

Well aware. You should know that I've manufactured MDMA quite a bit in the past using two different techniques to produce MDP-2-P and then a preferred route to either MDA or MDMA (and even once a batch of MDE just for shits). There are a handful of other compounds I've synthesized as well – this was ~20 years ago – probably the most notable of which was DMMDA-2 and DMMDMA-2 from Indian Dill Seed oil's Dillapiole constituent. Higher boiling point than safrole, but otherwise the process was mostly the same to bring it to the ketone intermediate and then aminating it.

I am aware. That is one reason I value your presence in this thread. I sometimes regret not becoming a chemist, as I wanted in my mid teens... Did learn to make nice bombs though. :^)

I still can't fathom what kind of MDMA imposter substance could possibly blockade the action of Ketamine… Maybe a weird disso like 3-CL-PCP, I guess? Wouldn't feel much like MDMA though…

Well, next time I encounter MehDMA I will try a heftier dose of K (if available).

Well, I don't reduce the amount of a psychedelic I take following MDMA… and I've always found that I need a bit more. At the same time, the effects themselves synergize nicely, but they don't potentiate each other necessarily. Does that make sense? Also, you might spell that word, "synergise" I'm guessing…Admittedly, the American way looks a little dumb, but oh well. I still think it's weird that the letter Z is called "Zee" in the U.S. and "Zed" in the U.K. …

Well, I'm a mixture of the Queens English (which was what I learned at school), and what I picked up during my senior year in the US.

Yeah I know, it really doesn't mean shit. Dealers lie all the time about their sources and their product. Take a holiday to the states, mate, and check out a city with a thriving underground dance music scene like Los Angeles, New York, Miami, or Las Vegas. Find some reputable rolls and see if that doesn't seem obviously and clearly different. Or Australia and New Zealand seemingly have the connect on fire shit… Guess you might need to look outside your area and/or consider sourcing from somewhere other than the dark net markets, which are known for their sketchy characters (though admittedly, super goddamn useful)…

Yes, may try that, probably going to the East Coast next autumn.

Don't underestimate the power of placebo, suggestion, and shared “superconscious” experiences, if you will. I think it's wise to remain skeptical.

Sometimes I was really, really, hoping for magic, and if anything, I've hyped MDMA to my friend (who's yet to experience magic MDMA). And as others have said in this thread, real, magic, MDMA usually doesn't seem to care about set and setting (at least not like psychedelics does) in regards to many of its effects. Of course being at a rave or with two therapists for treatment of your trauma will be very different experiences. Still music enhancement, empathy and tactile enhancement will be the same, IME.

Oh really? You roll on 3-FEA? I kinda dismissed it as another vaguely shitty stim like 4-FMA or 2-FA (however, note: 4-FA and 2-FMA are pretty good drugs though). Is the roll kinda like 4-FA, more like methylone, or pretty close to MDMA?

With 3-FEA you need 150-250 mg to roll. More similar to 5-MAPB than MDMA though. But way better than the shitty MDMA I've gotten the past 5 years.

Thanks for maintaining a good attitude while we disagree on the point. I admire someone who takes disagreement in stride.

I'm of the opinion that you get wiser by talking to those who don't agree with you (and not by joining a club where everyone thinks the same). And I don't know what we don't agree on. Everything I say is my best guess in this moment in time. I just hear you saying that we need hard data (replicatable) before we can say anything for sure. But I need no hard data to be certain that this thread would not have existed for so long if it wasn't anything to the idea that something is wrong with (some) the MDMA today.

You rolled in 1987? Goddamn. What were you hanging out with Paul Oakenfold, Danny Rampling, and Nicky Holloway in Ibiza, monging out to acid house at Heaven in Charing Cross? Let me find out you're Pete Tong, lol. Seriously though, that's gotta be a good story…

No exciting story, just being a senior in the US (exchange student) with a friend who had a friend who went to college in California and who was selling it. He brought some home to the East Coast for Easter 1987 wich we bought. Was 100 mg of crystals white in tinfoil. I had an after glow for 3 months! :^)