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SIED Moderators: Genetic Freak | Serotonin101
what bodybuilding supplements do you use?
- Thread starter rubenr4g
- Start date
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
so I've heard. also this guy on BL did a thread about nsaids and training. he's a smart guy so I'm gonna go with what he saidplus I seent his abs and as the great Borat from Kazakhstan once said "where is the pussy magnet?" well I think this dude ate it and it went straight to his abs
>;]
No.
I prefer creatine ethyl ester as I seem to have less bloat and less stomach discomfort. its also pretty cheap too, I got a kilo of it for cheap from an online source. tastes god awful but mixed with glucosamine and agmatine its tolerable.
Do you care to explain why? I have experienced IMMENSE gains from this last bottle. Are you saying it is completely non-effective or just not better than monohydrate?
its generally overpriced. monohydrate gives me the shits and awful bloat. give ethyl ester a try, its fairly cheap, tastes like ass, doesn't bloat you or give you the shits. also no "loading phase" as the bioavailability is better.
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
i'm not knowledgable enough re CEE to compare it to teh gold standard (mono), but things i think i remember are:
- CEE breaks down in fluid (yes, that includes while in-body/digesting) quicker than mono, which is too quick already
- there is zero evidence that CEE offers any advantages (i mean 'evidence' as in real, repeated, and non-biased)
further,
- bioavail is irrelevant here because mono has a high-enough availability (and increasing this wouldn't do much/anything for you).
- loading is a charged-term, at best. due to creatine's absurdly short half-life in the body, the idea of front-loading creatine is nonsense. even if you took 50g/day of creatine (any form), you're not "loaded" in any manner that prevents the need to regularly dose the stuff (i'm all about 2 half-doses / day, if i'm training or giving a fuck enough to maximize the creatine)
- "bloat" never made sense to me. half the greatness of creatine, at least of the bat, is the water retention (INSIDE the muscle cells; ppl get confused and think it's between cells, ie "puffy", that's horseshit)
- getting the shits is something i hear online sometimes but it seems so insignificant/irregular a problem for most anyone that i never paid it attn. IF you're sure it's the creatine mono that's giving you the shits, then by all means try something else (and, from what i hear, CEE is one of the major "alternatives")
- CEE breaks down in fluid (yes, that includes while in-body/digesting) quicker than mono, which is too quick already
- there is zero evidence that CEE offers any advantages (i mean 'evidence' as in real, repeated, and non-biased)
further,
- bioavail is irrelevant here because mono has a high-enough availability (and increasing this wouldn't do much/anything for you).
- loading is a charged-term, at best. due to creatine's absurdly short half-life in the body, the idea of front-loading creatine is nonsense. even if you took 50g/day of creatine (any form), you're not "loaded" in any manner that prevents the need to regularly dose the stuff (i'm all about 2 half-doses / day, if i'm training or giving a fuck enough to maximize the creatine)
- "bloat" never made sense to me. half the greatness of creatine, at least of the bat, is the water retention (INSIDE the muscle cells; ppl get confused and think it's between cells, ie "puffy", that's horseshit)
- getting the shits is something i hear online sometimes but it seems so insignificant/irregular a problem for most anyone that i never paid it attn. IF you're sure it's the creatine mono that's giving you the shits, then by all means try something else (and, from what i hear, CEE is one of the major "alternatives")
It is overpriced mono with less evidence.
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
overpriced 'creatine'; it is not mono.
after my NA meeting ill find the article about mono causing water retention outside the cell. something about since mono isn't as easily transported into cells can cause it to "settle" and cause some bloat for some people. and by loading phase I meant that it takes more time (more daily doses) for cells to acheive saturation of creatine (its a small margin iirc). I suffered horribly from the shits with mono. I eliminated every supplement from my diet and slowly added things in one by one. day one- added in the creatine mono and boom the shits. switched to cee, no more shits lol.
also apparently there are "non responders" to all creatine products due to some people genetically having more endo-creatine production which is so close to saturation levels little to no gains are made and the polar opposite exists too with "super responders" where some people don't produce enough endo-creatine they get huge gains when using creatine. I find I'm an average responder, nothing out the ordinary.
also apparently there are "non responders" to all creatine products due to some people genetically having more endo-creatine production which is so close to saturation levels little to no gains are made and the polar opposite exists too with "super responders" where some people don't produce enough endo-creatine they get huge gains when using creatine. I find I'm an average responder, nothing out the ordinary.
^^Do you have a response to BMXX's claim that your CEE is bullshit? I tried CEE in the form of BSN's Cell Mass and I made pretty good gains and didn't get bloated.
I think most people think that any new creatine is going to be bullshit...:/
I think most people think that any new creatine is going to be bullshit...:/
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
am curious what you're referring to re outside-cell retention, plz do get back :]
i knew what you meant by "loading". the thing is that 'loading' used to be par ffor the course w/ anything creatine (as was the idea of cycling it). that is gone. creatine has an absurdly short half-life in the body, so the idea of a 4d load, wherein day1 of that load somehow affects day5 of the total usage, is absurd. i'm not going to bother doing math- fuck math - but if something has a 3hr halflife, and the idea is to get to a maintenance phase wherein there's a constant/steady supply, then the very concept of multi-day loading is wrong mathematically.
(wrt the shits... i know you(as i did at a point) are an ex-doper; was that more-than accounted for in your experiments? i only ask because, frankly, i know nobody irl w/ such issues, i only read of them online. while that doesn't make me think they're nonexistent, my knowledge of how creatine is absorbed/used makes me question which mechanisms it's able to do this through (this becomes a fruitless undertaking). to be clear/frank, when i hear of stomach/digestion issues, i immediately question other factors, a major one being the facts that: 1- most are underhydrated as a rule, and 2- taking creatine requires heavy fluid. yeah, i do attribute mucvh of this complaint to things such as hydration adn other relevant factors. i could definitely be wrong, that's just the idea i got many many years ago while selling creatine, and haven't really found a single reason to change my mindset since. as with the inter/intra cellular concept, this is another i'd love to hear some real data on (yes i do understand you're only asserting anecdote for the cramping concerns and don't expect you to necessarily have research on-hand wrt that!)
the concept of non-responders is bullshit and a complete fabrication of those who have interests in supplemental creatine that is not creatine monohydrate. "endo-creatine" (have never seen that term b4, but it fits to a degree) is a function of your dietary intake. for example, anyone who's vegetarian/vegan will get WAY more out of supplemental creatine than a normal person (yeah, i used 'normal' intentionally. suck it ;p ), but that's not due to genetic factors (as CEE-retailers try to imply when they twist this fact), but just the reality that if you don't eat shit like meat, your dietary creatine intake is absurdly low. creatine is one of the MANY things that make vegans/vegetarians weaker than average people.
i knew what you meant by "loading". the thing is that 'loading' used to be par ffor the course w/ anything creatine (as was the idea of cycling it). that is gone. creatine has an absurdly short half-life in the body, so the idea of a 4d load, wherein day1 of that load somehow affects day5 of the total usage, is absurd. i'm not going to bother doing math- fuck math - but if something has a 3hr halflife, and the idea is to get to a maintenance phase wherein there's a constant/steady supply, then the very concept of multi-day loading is wrong mathematically.
(wrt the shits... i know you(as i did at a point) are an ex-doper; was that more-than accounted for in your experiments? i only ask because, frankly, i know nobody irl w/ such issues, i only read of them online. while that doesn't make me think they're nonexistent, my knowledge of how creatine is absorbed/used makes me question which mechanisms it's able to do this through (this becomes a fruitless undertaking). to be clear/frank, when i hear of stomach/digestion issues, i immediately question other factors, a major one being the facts that: 1- most are underhydrated as a rule, and 2- taking creatine requires heavy fluid. yeah, i do attribute mucvh of this complaint to things such as hydration adn other relevant factors. i could definitely be wrong, that's just the idea i got many many years ago while selling creatine, and haven't really found a single reason to change my mindset since. as with the inter/intra cellular concept, this is another i'd love to hear some real data on (yes i do understand you're only asserting anecdote for the cramping concerns and don't expect you to necessarily have research on-hand wrt that!)
the concept of non-responders is bullshit and a complete fabrication of those who have interests in supplemental creatine that is not creatine monohydrate. "endo-creatine" (have never seen that term b4, but it fits to a degree) is a function of your dietary intake. for example, anyone who's vegetarian/vegan will get WAY more out of supplemental creatine than a normal person (yeah, i used 'normal' intentionally. suck it ;p ), but that's not due to genetic factors (as CEE-retailers try to imply when they twist this fact), but just the reality that if you don't eat shit like meat, your dietary creatine intake is absurdly low. creatine is one of the MANY things that make vegans/vegetarians weaker than average people.
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
first- cell mass is solid (i've done many tubs- bsn used to throw me shit 24/7 lol, i've consumed more 'proprietary' ingredients from their cellmass, no.xplode, and their stim product<can't recall brandname> than i care to admit or am comfortable with.
nobody is saying cellmass, or CEE doesn't work. the questions are in regards to relative safety/efficacy/price re the standard (creatine mono). if i'm going to consume CEE (regardless of price), i want to know a bit about it; i've found that is impossible for any conscientious consumer.
secondly- "most ppl think anything new is bullshit"... that's a very pessimistic way of seeing what is, in essence, a thinking person's reality. creatine mono cannot hold a candle to, say, test enthanate. but it's cheap, is absurdly "inert"/healthy/non-concerning wrt health/ etc. so, to be blunt, creatine is something that is all but foolish not to supplement with (whether you're looking for performance/ergogenic aids, or nootropics). But, yes, informed consumers are all too aware that, when THC is accepted by the masses, ppl will try to sell inferior, "RC" cannabinoids. i actually use such "spice" mixes, but in no way do i think they're equivalent to mj. i use them for other reasons. NOW, of those "other" reasons were irrelevant- like theyt are for accepted products like creatine, then, upon finding someone with a "better" tweaking of a compound, i'd expect sufficient proof b4 i swapped to their compound. CEE manufacturers are able to provide none (my recollection- though i will not google to confirm on this matter- is that it was a U of nebraska or iowa creation, and the inception 'proof' of validity didn't put it better than creatine. that 'proof' was also the most legit scientific work on this compound.
honestly, CEE is cheap as shit, so if it's better, i'll grab my next batch of creatine online instead of walmart/gnc/vit.shoppe. i hate buying inferior products. BUT, i think mono is the way to go right now, and until someone can clarify why CEE (or any other form outside of mono) is advantageous, then mono will be my go-to and the product i endorse to others :]
hmmm. I can't find the specific article but I found a study that has me scratching my head.
3 AM
The effects of creatine ethyl ester
supplementation combined with heavy
resistance training on body composition,
muscle performance, and serum and muscle
creatine levels
Mike Spillane,1 Ryan Schoch,4 Matt Cooke,1
Travis Harvey,5 Mike Greenwood,1 Richard
Kreider,3 and Darryn S
Willoughbycorresponding author1,2
1Department of Health, Human
Performance and Recreation, Baylor
University, Box 97313, Waco, TX 76798, USA
2Institute for Biomedical Science, Baylor
University, Waco, TX 87898, USA
3Department of Health and Kinesiology,
Texas A&M University, College Station, TX
78743, USA
4Interdepartmental Nutrition Program,
Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN
47907, USA
5Department of Physical Education, United
States Military Academy, West Point, NY
10096, USA
corresponding authorCorresponding author.
Mike Spillane: [email protected] ;
Ryan Schoch: [email protected] ; Matt
Cooke: [email protected] ; Travis
Harvey: [email protected] ; Mike
Greenwood: [email protected] ;
Richard Kreider: [email protected] ;
Darryn S Willoughby:
[email protected]
Received December 29, 2008; Accepted
February 19, 2009.
This is an Open Access article distributed
under the terms of the Creative Commons
Attribution License ( Creative Commons
— Attribution 2.0 Generic ), which
permits unrestricted use, distribution, and
reproduction in any medium, provided the
original work is properly cited.
* Other Sections***9660;
o Abstract
o Introduction
o Methods
o Results
o Discussion
o Conclusion
o Competing interests
o Authors' contributions
o References
Abstract
Numerous creatine formulations have been
developed primarily to maximize creatine
absorption. Creatine ethyl ester is alleged
to increase creatine bio-availability. This
study examined how a seven-week
supplementation regimen combined with
resistance training affected body
composition, muscle mass, muscle strength
and power, serum and muscle creatine
levels, and serum creatinine levels in 30
non-resistance-trained males. In a double-
blind manner, participants were randomly
assigned to a maltodextrose placebo (PLA),
creatine monohydrate (CRT), or creatine
ethyl ester (CEE) group. The supplements
were orally ingested at a dose of 0.30 g/kg
fat-free body mass (approximately 20 g/
day) for five days followed by ingestion at
0.075 g/kg fat free mass (approximately 5 g/
day) for 42 days. Results showed
significantly higher serum creatine
concentrations in PLA (p = 0.007) and CRT
(p = 0.005) compared to CEE. Serum
creatinine was greater in CEE compared to
the PLA (p = 0.001) and CRT (p = 0.001)
and increased at days 6, 27, and 48. Total
muscle creatine content was significantly
higher in CRT (p = 0.026) and CEE (p =
0.041) compared to PLA, with no
differences between CRT and CEE.
Significant changes over time were observed
for body composition, body water, muscle
strength and power variables, but no
significant differences were observed
between groups. In conclusion, when
compared to creatine monohydrate,
creatine ethyl ester was not as effective at
increasing serum and muscle creatine levels
or in improving body composition, muscle
mass, strength, and power. Therefore, the
improvements in these variables can most
likely be attributed to the training protocol
itself, rather than the supplementation
regimen.
Non-enzymatic hydrolysis of creatine ethyl
ester.
Katseres NS, Reading DW, Shayya L,
Dicesare JC, Purser GH.
Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry,
The University of Tulsa, 800 Tucker Drive,
Tulsa, OK 74014, USA.
Abstract
The rate of the non-enzymatic hydrolysis of
creatine ethyl ester (CEE) was studied at 37
degrees C over the pH range of 1.6-7.0
using (1)H NMR. The ester can be present
in solution in three forms: the
unprotonated form (CEE), the
monoprotonated form (HCEE(+)), and the
diprotonated form (H(2)CEE(2+)). The
values of pK(a1) and pK(a2) of H(2)CEE(2+)
were found to be 2.30 and 5.25,
respectively. The rate law is found to be
Rate=-dCCEE/dt=k++[H2CEE2+][OH-]+k
+[HCEE+][OH-]+k0[CEE][OH-] where the
rate constants k(++), k(+), and k(0) are
(3.9+/-0.2)x10(6)L mol(-1)s(-1),
(3.3+/-0.5)x10(4)L mol(-1)s(-1), and
(4.9+/-0.3)x10(4)L mol(-1)s(-1),
respectively. Calculations performed at the
density functional theory level support the
hypothesis that the similarity in the values
of k(+) and k(0) results from intramolecular
hydrogen bonding that plays a crucial role.
This study indicates that the half-life of CEE
in blood is on the order of one minute,
suggesting that CEE may hydrolyze too
quickly to reach muscle cells in its ester
form.
from the looks of things it doesn't seem to be superior or not. from reading other people's experiences ive read it seems to be individual preference.
3 AM
The effects of creatine ethyl ester
supplementation combined with heavy
resistance training on body composition,
muscle performance, and serum and muscle
creatine levels
Mike Spillane,1 Ryan Schoch,4 Matt Cooke,1
Travis Harvey,5 Mike Greenwood,1 Richard
Kreider,3 and Darryn S
Willoughbycorresponding author1,2
1Department of Health, Human
Performance and Recreation, Baylor
University, Box 97313, Waco, TX 76798, USA
2Institute for Biomedical Science, Baylor
University, Waco, TX 87898, USA
3Department of Health and Kinesiology,
Texas A&M University, College Station, TX
78743, USA
4Interdepartmental Nutrition Program,
Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN
47907, USA
5Department of Physical Education, United
States Military Academy, West Point, NY
10096, USA
corresponding authorCorresponding author.
Mike Spillane: [email protected] ;
Ryan Schoch: [email protected] ; Matt
Cooke: [email protected] ; Travis
Harvey: [email protected] ; Mike
Greenwood: [email protected] ;
Richard Kreider: [email protected] ;
Darryn S Willoughby:
[email protected]
Received December 29, 2008; Accepted
February 19, 2009.
This is an Open Access article distributed
under the terms of the Creative Commons
Attribution License ( Creative Commons
— Attribution 2.0 Generic ), which
permits unrestricted use, distribution, and
reproduction in any medium, provided the
original work is properly cited.
* Other Sections***9660;
o Abstract
o Introduction
o Methods
o Results
o Discussion
o Conclusion
o Competing interests
o Authors' contributions
o References
Abstract
Numerous creatine formulations have been
developed primarily to maximize creatine
absorption. Creatine ethyl ester is alleged
to increase creatine bio-availability. This
study examined how a seven-week
supplementation regimen combined with
resistance training affected body
composition, muscle mass, muscle strength
and power, serum and muscle creatine
levels, and serum creatinine levels in 30
non-resistance-trained males. In a double-
blind manner, participants were randomly
assigned to a maltodextrose placebo (PLA),
creatine monohydrate (CRT), or creatine
ethyl ester (CEE) group. The supplements
were orally ingested at a dose of 0.30 g/kg
fat-free body mass (approximately 20 g/
day) for five days followed by ingestion at
0.075 g/kg fat free mass (approximately 5 g/
day) for 42 days. Results showed
significantly higher serum creatine
concentrations in PLA (p = 0.007) and CRT
(p = 0.005) compared to CEE. Serum
creatinine was greater in CEE compared to
the PLA (p = 0.001) and CRT (p = 0.001)
and increased at days 6, 27, and 48. Total
muscle creatine content was significantly
higher in CRT (p = 0.026) and CEE (p =
0.041) compared to PLA, with no
differences between CRT and CEE.
Significant changes over time were observed
for body composition, body water, muscle
strength and power variables, but no
significant differences were observed
between groups. In conclusion, when
compared to creatine monohydrate,
creatine ethyl ester was not as effective at
increasing serum and muscle creatine levels
or in improving body composition, muscle
mass, strength, and power. Therefore, the
improvements in these variables can most
likely be attributed to the training protocol
itself, rather than the supplementation
regimen.
Non-enzymatic hydrolysis of creatine ethyl
ester.
Katseres NS, Reading DW, Shayya L,
Dicesare JC, Purser GH.
Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry,
The University of Tulsa, 800 Tucker Drive,
Tulsa, OK 74014, USA.
Abstract
The rate of the non-enzymatic hydrolysis of
creatine ethyl ester (CEE) was studied at 37
degrees C over the pH range of 1.6-7.0
using (1)H NMR. The ester can be present
in solution in three forms: the
unprotonated form (CEE), the
monoprotonated form (HCEE(+)), and the
diprotonated form (H(2)CEE(2+)). The
values of pK(a1) and pK(a2) of H(2)CEE(2+)
were found to be 2.30 and 5.25,
respectively. The rate law is found to be
Rate=-dCCEE/dt=k++[H2CEE2+][OH-]+k
+[HCEE+][OH-]+k0[CEE][OH-] where the
rate constants k(++), k(+), and k(0) are
(3.9+/-0.2)x10(6)L mol(-1)s(-1),
(3.3+/-0.5)x10(4)L mol(-1)s(-1), and
(4.9+/-0.3)x10(4)L mol(-1)s(-1),
respectively. Calculations performed at the
density functional theory level support the
hypothesis that the similarity in the values
of k(+) and k(0) results from intramolecular
hydrogen bonding that plays a crucial role.
This study indicates that the half-life of CEE
in blood is on the order of one minute,
suggesting that CEE may hydrolyze too
quickly to reach muscle cells in its ester
form.
from the looks of things it doesn't seem to be superior or not. from reading other people's experiences ive read it seems to be individual preference.
in reference to "the shits", it reminds me of dope sick explosive diarrhea kinda shits when I ingest monohydrate. I always drink 1.5-2gallons of water a day so its not a hydration issue. I've tried different brands as well. I switched to cee out of necessity cuz I got tired of shitting my brains out. it was miserable.
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
how long were you on that water regimen?
i ask because, honestly, that is impressive, IF you were truly living up to it routinely (ie over a month, minimum, w/ a c ouple failure-days at most). if you're a well-hydrated, and healthy(are you?) person, i'm fucking baffled at the idea that adding creatine monohydrate made you blow your brains out, metaphorically-speaking. i'm at a loss for any scientific/physiological explanation here (you're quite obviously well-read- what's *your* theory? your anecdoate is worthwhile, cuz you do hold some weight here. but what's your thoughts on why the fuck you could be healthy/hydrated, but regular creatine mono made you have crazy GI distress? that shit's bananas dude.
b-a-n-a-n-a-s! curse you gwen stefani!
I drink around 16oz water every hour during regular hours and about 48 oz during my lifting hour. been doing this for around 9 months. literally all I drink is water. I used monohydrate for 4-5 months with explosive diarrheal 3-5 times daily. I tried various ingesting methods such as taking it with/after food, different liquids (juices, milk, etc), and different times of the day. all resulted in literal brown water coming out my ass preceded with horrible stomach discomfort and GI cramps similar to food poisoning. my doc says I'm in great health and good fitness as well. I eat above maintenance as I'm bulking, all macros and micros are met. I only drink water and maybe a glass of milk or two a day. I still smoke (my recovery crutch for now) but its better than abusing drugs again. as much as I liked the effects I got from mono, I ended up getting hemrrhoids from sitting on the toilet so often. I even got bitched at by my parents for using so much toilet paper (1 roll a day). ugh, miserable times. I was afraid to go out in public in case an "episode" occurred.
I drink around 16oz water every hour during regular hours and about 48 oz during my lifting hour. been doing this for around 9 months. literally all I drink is water. I used monohydrate for 4-5 months with explosive diarrheal 3-5 times daily. I tried various ingesting methods such as taking it with/after food, different liquids (juices, milk, etc), and different times of the day. all resulted in literal brown water coming out my ass preceded with horrible stomach discomfort and GI cramps similar to food poisoning. my doc says I'm in great health and good fitness as well. I eat above maintenance as I'm bulking, all macros and micros are met. I only drink water and maybe a glass of milk or two a day. I still smoke (my recovery crutch for now) but its better than abusing drugs again. as much as I liked the effects I got from mono, I ended up getting hemrrhoids from sitting on the toilet so often. I even got bitched at by my parents for using so much toilet paper (1 roll a day). ugh, miserable times. I was afraid to go out in public in case an "episode" occurred.
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Bluelight Crew
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Yup. I love it. Combined with Clenbuterol it burns fat like crazy.
-Guido-
Bluelight Crew
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2004
- Messages
- 34,834
LOL! That's fucking funny. Your parents yelled at you for shitting to much lol.
after I took my mono in the past I'd tell myself "prepare for shit storm" and about an hour later it would begin... yeah my parents got mad cuz I was shitting all the time. at first they thought I was getting high again (spending a lot of time in the bathroom) til I had to "prove it to them" what was going on. not fun memories.