Vegetarianism vs meat eating

[mariacallas]

I split off all the unecessary posts in this thread. Back on topic now and I mean it.

 

[doesntmatter]

i've tried lots of "veggy burger" and other imitation meat products that are on the shelves, they all suck to me. now that is a personal opinion. i do like vegetables, i also like meat.

i enjoy cooking and eating. it is one of the more enjoyable parts of the day. the smell, taste, and conversation.

obviously its very healthy to eat vegetables. as far as mental health goes, i don't think its fair to rule out meat. pay attention to your mental health aswell, you could be killed in a car accident tomorrow, or suffer a stroke (no matter how healthy you are) at any moment. enjoy your life, don't live like you're going to be in your body forever.

don't get me wrong, its important to take care of your body, just making a point that not eating meat if you love it, wouldn't necessarily be doing so at all levels.

 

[saturnine]

as far as mental health goes, i don't think its fair to rule out meat. pay attention to your mental health aswell, you could be killed in a car accident tomorrow, or suffer a stroke (no matter how healthy you are) at any moment. enjoy your life, don't live like you're going to be in your body forever.

i think for many people the idea of eating animals has a negative effect on mental health.


i agree with you, doesntmatter, on the point that if a specificperson takes great pleasure in the consumption/preparation of meat that it would have an averse effect on them psychologically to go vegetarian, however.


as for the spontaneous stroke thing, i think that unless a person has a family history of stroke, and they avoid the risk factors, they're pretty safe to say they won't suffer such a fate.

Risks For Stroke Include:

High blood pressure — High blood pressure is the most important controllable risk factor for stroke. Many people believe the effective treatment of high blood pressure is a key reason for the accelerated decline in the death rates for stroke.

Cigarette smoking — In recent years, studies have shown cigarette smoking to be an important risk factor for stroke. The nicotine and carbon monoxide in cigarette smoke damage the cardiovascular system in many ways. The use of oral contraceptives combined with cigarette smoking greatly increases stroke risk.

Diabetes mellitus — Diabetes is an independent risk factor for stroke. Many people with diabetes also have high blood pressure, high blood cholesterol and are overweight. This increases their risk even more. While diabetes is treatable, the presence of the disease still increases your risk of stroke.

Carotid or other artery disease — The carotid arteries in your neck supply blood to your brain. A carotid artery narrowed by fatty deposits from atherosclerosis (plaque buildups in artery walls) may become blocked by a blood clot. Carotid artery disease is also called carotid artery stenosis. Peripheral artery disease is the narrowing of blood vessels carrying blood to leg and arm muscles. It's caused by fatty buildups of plaque in artery walls. People with peripheral artery disease have a higher risk of carotid artery disease, which raises their risk of stroke.

Atrial fibrillation — This heart rhythm disorder raises the risk for stroke. The heart's upper chambers quiver instead of beating effectively, which can let the blood pool and clot. If a clot breaks off, enters the bloodstream and lodges in an artery leading to the brain, a stroke results.

Other heart disease — People with coronary heart disease or heart failure have a higher risk of stroke than those with hearts that work normally. Dilated cardiomyopathy (an enlarged heart), heart valve disease and some types of congenital heart defects also raise the risk of stroke.

Sickle cell disease (also called sickle cell anemia) — This is a genetic disorder that mainly affects African-American and Hispanic children. "Sickled" red blood cells are less able to carry oxygen to the body's tissues and organs. These cells also tend to stick to blood vessel walls, which can block arteries to the brain and cause a stroke.

High blood cholesterol — People with high blood cholesterol have an increased risk for stroke. Also, it appears that low HDL (“good”) cholesterol is a risk factor for stroke in men, but more data are needed to verify its effect in women.

Poor diet — Diets high in saturated fat, trans fat and cholesterol can raise blood cholesterol levels. Diets high in sodium (salt) can contribute to increased blood pressure. Diets with excess calories can contribute to obesity. Also, a diet containing five or more servings of fruits and vegetables per day may reduce the risk of stroke.

Physical inactivity and obesity — Being inactive, obese or both can increase your risk of high blood pressure, high blood cholesterol, diabetes, heart disease and stroke. So go on a brisk walk, take the stairs, and do whatever you can to make your life more active. Try to get a total of at least 30 minutes of activity on most or all days

 

[doesntmatter]

^^^

agreed, i was making a point towards life's short nature.

random stroke is unlikely.

but it does happen.

thought to be "healthy" teenagers have suffered fatal heart attacks out of the blue.

again unlikely, but as a point, not enjoying life because you think you'll live forever isn't healthy.

that being said, its much more "healthy" to eat veggetable and take vitamins to fill this gaps.

i'm just bringing up the point of quality of life.

its much more "healthy" for a 93 year old to be hooked to a respirator and insulin drip in a hospital for four years as oposed to dying.

i just don't see how the slight benefit of eating a strictly vegetarian diet to someone who enjoys eating meat combined with vegetables and excercise could be considered "living healthy" as oposed to just "acting healthy"

you're going to die anyways, if you enjoy eating meat, do it responsibly.

 

[yellodolphin]

u know what i find funny is that the number one selling drug in the u.s. i think is a cholesterol lowering drug. high cholesterol is related to one's diet and vegetarians are unlikely to develop this.

I just dont see why even when one's diet is affecting health ppl dont consider changing it. all they do is take thier prescription drug to solve thier problems. im sorry but i fundamentally disagree with the western health system. Instead of ingesting less cholesterol (from animal products), buy this drug and ur problems are solved.

 

[MynameisnotDeja]

obviously its very healthy to eat vegetables. as far as mental health goes, i don't think its fair to rule out meat. pay attention to your mental health aswell, you could be killed in a car accident tomorrow, or suffer a stroke (no matter how healthy you are) at any moment. enjoy your life, don't live like you're going to be in your body forever.

That makes little sense to me. It HELPED my mental health to give up meat. It took away any guilt I had, and it made me feel good to know that I am making a lifestyle choice that means something for the environment, animals, and my health. It definately has helped my mental health going veggie, it always felt like there was something "wrong" with what I was doing before but I couldnt put my finger on it.

I also LOVE veggie burgers, I think they taste great, better than real meat. Try Morningstar farms "grillers". They are delicious, I ate them even before I was vegetarian.

But I should point out that I DID take great pleasure in eating meat before. It tastes good. Lots of things FEEL good that arent good for you. Smoking ciggarettes, doing cocaine, eating an entire bag of potato chips, or getting shit faced drunk are just a few examples. I think of eating meat as a human vice, and one that we can definately live without.

 

[skywise]

I'm with mynameisnotdeja about the whole mental health issue. Being a vegetarian has significantly helped my mental health whereas eating meat would certainly throw me into depression because I'd be doing something that I consider immoral and irresponsible.

With that said, I can understand that if you just love meat and don't have moral or social issues with it that the quality of life benefits you get from eating meat may outweigh the health benefits. For instance, I realize that being a hearty drinker and eater of cheese (thats what living in Wisconsin will do to you) isn't very healthy at all. I also know that there are compelling arguments why drinking alcohol and eating cheese are immoral and irresponsible. Hell, there are good social reasons not to eat chocolate. But damnit, I enjoy all these things and want to spend my time alive doing what I enjoy. I imagine this is how you feel about meat doesn'tmatter?

 

[saturnine]

u know what i find funny is that the number one selling drug in the u.s. i think is a cholesterol lowering drug. high cholesterol is related to one's diet and vegetarians are unlikely to develop this.

I just dont see why even when one's diet is affecting health ppl dont consider changing it. all they do is take thier prescription drug to solve thier problems. im sorry but i fundamentally disagree with the western health system. Instead of ingesting less cholesterol (from animal products), buy this drug and ur problems are solved.

good post.

 

[StagnantReaction]

PS What about evolutionarily? In my studies, meat plays a large role in human evolution. At first we were scavengers, then with the advent of weapons we hunted, had social communication, learned how to control fires (for cooking our meat), our brains grew, and so on. (sorry bout the lack of detail...posts too long)

Also, in hunter-gatherer societies, meat eating is essential when you think of time allocation. The women forage all day and care for the children, but all their roots, berries, etc. would not meet the village's needs. Meat, on the other hand, is much more calorie efficient.
\

Yes, the role of meat in evolution. Wait, could you go more into detail? From what I know, eating meat was considered inefficient in meeting the "village's needs". Why waste crops on the animals when it can be directly given to the human? 90% of energy is wasted in this secondary consumer transfer.

Man was a scavenger, involving the eating of meat from hunting when the plant food was not met. Then, the agricultural revolution took place and food sources switched to the (more) reliable crop, so man forgot about hunting-and-gathering. The eating of meat still took place where it was sustainable, but not in areas where it was energy inefficient. This is reflected in the Middle East and India during the decline of soil fertility, when they figured out that it was too costly to raise pigs and use the cow for food instead of milk and labor, respectively.

Ever since the agricultural until the industrial revolution, meat was only eaten rarely as a treat, especially among the wealthy. Of course, animals were soon farmed in the industrial age, opening an increasing economic role for meat eating, where it is easily afforded (yet again) by the wealthy (nations).

Examples:
the Dobe Ju/'hoansi Bushmen
the Inuit- traditionally fruit, veggies and other carbs only made up 2% of their diet!!

The Dobe Ju'hoansi's diet consists of 70% vegetarian (primarily of nuts, the most readily source of food in the area) because game is scarce and unpredictable.

 

[DJDannyUhOh]

u know what i find funny is that the number one selling drug in the u.s. i think is a cholesterol lowering drug. high cholesterol is related to one's diet and vegetarians are unlikely to develop this.

Cholesterol is highly susceptible to genetics; family history is a huge deal in that respect. I deal with many (cancer) patients that avoid meat, eat tons of vegetables, get their fiber, and drink lots of water, yet because of their family history, their entire lipid panels are still reflective of a high fat content diet. I have few vegetarian friends that openly claim they try to eat healthy. . . of course while stuffing their faces with french fries and other breaded, deep-fried vegetables. Being a vegetarian or vegan is by no means a "carte blanche" in not worrying about such health issues. A common problem is that some people who avoid meat strictly for moral reasons tend to ignore nutritional values of the foods they eat. The decision to eat/not eat meat should be only a small part of the overall picture of a healthy lifestyle plan as there are a myriad of other factors that affect physical/mental/spiritual health.

And to address meat, a much more healthy alternative to beef that I don't think anybody has mentioned yet is bison/buffalo. Do some research on it, you may find it interesting. And it tastes exactly like beef; no game taste to it. Also, if you're concerned by toxins in the fish (especially around here in Lake Michigan), choose farm raised fish. Now, not all farm raised fish is healthy so you need to choose carefully.

 

[StagnantReaction]

Cholesterol is highly susceptible to genetics; family history is a huge deal in that respect. I deal with many (cancer) patients that avoid meat, eat tons of vegetables, get their fiber, and drink lots of water, yet because of their family history, their entire lipid panels are still reflective of a high fat content diet.

How did these genes develop? Do you think there is a link between high cholesterol consumption in ancestors and high genetic cholesterol? In such a case, the rabbit hole goes deeper than just "family background". History implies it comes from somewhere; the past. Here's a question: where are all these cases of high cholesterol coming from? There certainly were not so many 50 years ago. This leads me to believe that the cases are growing, that the inheritance is growing by each generation, suggesting that the present person must be adding cholesterol to their genes. Where does this come from?

Of course, about 1 in 10 of high cholesterol cases are strongly genetically caused, so this is very negligible. Why worry about what you cannot change when you should be worrying about the strongest change you can possibly make?

I have few vegetarian friends that openly claim they try to eat healthy. . . of course while stuffing their faces with french fries and other breaded, deep-fried vegetables.

This is bad choice regardless of vegetarianism or not. Off topic. Stupid people are stupid people. Of course, you could contrast the health differences that may exist between deep fried vegetables and meat, utilizing the control in scientific enquiry.

This brings up an excellent point. Are there exterior factors here, for example can we just point at flour for being bad or maybe because it's not whole grain, GMO'd, bleached, processed that lowers nutrition, etc. Take trans fatty vegetable oils-- they are bad for you specifically because they were processed in a certain fashion. Otherwise, there is no problem with the unaltered fat.

The decision to eat/not eat meat should be only a small part of the overall picture of a healthy lifestyle plan as their are a myriad of other factors that affect physical/mental/spiritual health.

Yes, but the enquiry into specifically whether or not meat is better than alternatives requires that all other factors remain constant, as a control, in order to bring out the dependent variable for our results.

 

[DJDannyUhOh]

Actually, the general pattern of high cholesterol consumption by an organism over a period of tens of thousands of years would yield the opposite results. Our bodies would actually tolerate cholesterol better if we had been consuming it for millennia. However you could make the argument that modern homo sapiens haven't consumed enough meat to elicit this reaction. I think for that to happen, we would have to have been strict carnivores like wolves or cats for thousands of years. But as you've seen with all of these meat threads, debating evolutionary past is rather moot. Taxonomy isn't a definitive way to classify evolutionary diet.

As for familial hypercholesterolemia, it's true 1 in 10 will have early complications just because of this factor, but a much larger portion of the population still suffers from high blood cholesterol due to family history. Since the condition is an autosomal dominant disorder, you only need to inherit the mutated gene from 1 parent, not both. And like you said, there are so many other sources of cholesterol other than meat, it would be hard to say that eliminating meat will solve the problem. And if you're choosing the right type of meat and eating in strict moderation while maintaining the rest of a healthy diet, cholesterol can be controlled.

 

[Portillo]

In an evolutionary naturalist view i dont see the logic in our fancy upper class way of eating. Like the zombies at starbucks and diners etc...

 

[BigBenn]

How did these genes develop? Do you think there is a link between high cholesterol consumption in ancestors and high genetic cholesterol? In such a case, the rabbit hole goes deeper than just "family background". History implies it comes from somewhere; the past. Here's a question: where are all these cases of high cholesterol coming from? There certainly were not so many 50 years ago. This leads me to believe that the cases are growing, that the inheritance is growing by each generation, suggesting that the present person must be adding cholesterol to their genes. Where does this come from?

I think you might be ignoring the fact that medicine has changed alot in the past 50 years. Better screening, more understanding about cholesterol (HDL vs. LDL), and health effects, means that doctors find alot more of the people with bad cholesterol profiles.

Another reason for the expolosion in cholesterol medication is that there are many new cholesterol drugs. The drug companies are pimping lipitor and the like as hard as they possibly can. There is just more awareness about cholesterol now.

Negative Dietary Trends are the predominate factor in the increase in cardiovascular disease/diabetes/arterioschlerosis. Cholesterol is everywhere... meat being a particularly large source along with eggs. Fried food is the biggest source for a vegan/vegetarian, and they should monitor their diet accordingly.

I would agree that someone with cholesterol issues, or cholesterol problems in the family might be well suited to abstain from red meat. Fish and chicken would be ok.

 

[BigBenn]

And I forgot to mention the fact that people are living longer nowadays. Since cholesterol and resulting arterioschlerosis is a degenerative progressive disease, the longer we live the more we will see such problems.

 

[StagnantReaction]

Cholesterol is everywhere... meat being a particularly large source along with eggs. Fried food is the biggest source for a vegan/vegetarian, and they should monitor their diet accordingly.

Could you please explain how vegans eat LDL cholesterol? Esp. the fried food part. I may be mistaken, but I thought that all LDL cholesterol, "bad cholesterol", was found soley in animal products.

Pertaining to the topic: vegetarians have been shown to have a 24% reduced risk of dying of heart disease in an analysis of mortality rates from 5 major studies.

I'm surprised becoming vegetarian isn't the top suggestion for people with high cholesterol/risk of heart disease. 24% reduction for vegetarians and 29% for vegans is astounding, and the single most effective thing you can do to protect yourself.

I suppose vegetarianism does increase your life expectancy in industrialized nations, since heart disease is the #1 killer.

Edit: I'm sorry, but I was wrong about cholesterol in plants. They do contain some small portions of cholesterol: 1/10,000 that found in animals for common vegetable oils, but average vegetables have about 1/100th the cholesterol animal contain. Still unclear as to whether vegetable cholesterol is LDL, though.

I would agree that someone with cholesterol issues, or cholesterol problems in the family might be well suited to abstain from red meat. Fish and chicken would be ok.

Really? I wouldn't tell them that. Plant-based low-fat diets have twice the cholesterol-lowering effect of meat-based low-fat diets.

 

[Church]

I'm so glad this thread sounds grown-up now!! :D

 

[saturnine]

Cholesterol is everywhere... meat being a particularly large source along with eggs. Fried food is the biggest source for a vegan/vegetarian, and they should monitor their diet accordingly.

cholesterol really isn't everywhere if you're a vegan.

in fact, cholesterol is not found in any significant levels in plant-based foods.

the only way a fried food is going to impart a significant dose of cholesterol is if the oil in which it is fried contains tallow or some other animal product/derivative, in which case it wouldnt technically be veg(etari)an.



also, eggs contain far more cholesterol than meats. a more accurate statement would be "eggs along with meat".

 

[ebola?]

to be fair, though, saturated fat appears to have a far greater effect on serum cholesterol than dietary cholesterol itself.

ebola

 

[StagnantReaction]

^^ A very good point. Egg (yolk) contains quite a lot of cholesterol. Perhaps this is because it is a whole animal (fetus), instead of a part of one.

Egg and dairy are the reasons why [octo-lavo] vegetarians have a higher cholesterol index than vegans. This places the average vegetarian at a slight risk for heart disease, whereas vegans are generally under 140 in the index and thus have an extremely small risk.

to be fair, though, saturated fat appears to have a far greater effect on serum cholesterol than dietary cholesterol itself.

ebola

Yes, but one only has to look at the correlations between vegan, vegetarians, and meat eaters to understand that the saturated fats in animals (probably) increase your risks much more significantly then the few plant sources.

^^Edit: Then again, the correlation could simply be skewed if those vegetarians are more likely to use cannabis, which lowers atherosclerosis. Damn hippies!