Vegetarianism vs meat eating

[ebola?]

>>
PS What about evolutionarily? In my studies, meat plays a large role in human evolution. At first we were scavengers, then with the advent of weapons we hunted, had social communication, learned how to control fires (for cooking our meat), our brains grew, and so on. (sorry bout the lack of detail...posts too long)

Also, in hunter-gatherer societies, meat eating is essential when you think of time allocation. The women forage all day and care for the children, but all their roots, berries, etc. would not meet the village's needs. Meat, on the other hand, is much more calorie efficient.>>

As I've argued, this says nothing of how we should eat today.

ebola

 

[DJDannyUhOh]

Could you please explain how vegans eat LDL cholesterol? Esp. the fried food part. I may be mistaken, but I thought that all LDL cholesterol, "bad cholesterol", was found soley in animal products.

Nope. Hydrogenated vegetable oil is a significant source that raises your LDL and subsequently VLDL. If you're eating out or at a fast food place and you order a fried vegetable dish or anything fried for that matter, you will most likely be getting this type of vegetable oil, especially at places that reuse their oils. Coconut, palm, and palm kernel oils are also sources of saturated fats that will raise LDL. Like I said before, just because there is not meat there doesn't mean it's automatically healthy. That's why I pointed out before - it's not "what" you eat, it's "what's inside" what you eat. If you have the interest in the morality of your diet, you need to have just as much interest devoted to nutritional content.

 

[ebola?]

>>If you have the interest in the morality of your diet, you need to have just as much interest devoted to nutritional content.>>

this doesn't follow...

ebola

 

[DJDannyUhOh]

You don't think that some people here automatically equate the absence of meat with a healthy diet while there is so much more than that to overall health? It's clear that some people here are ignoring the fact that cholesterol intake of a vege/vegan diet needs to be monitored just the same.

 

[skywise]

^^ Even if what you say in this post is true, what Ebola quoted still doesn't make any sense. You can be interested in the moral aspect of vegetarianism without having any interest whatsoever in nutrition (unless you come up with some brilliant reason why to be moral you have to be nutritional too).

Morals, however, have no real place in this thread so to keep on topic and repsond to your last post: Yes, some people probably automatically equate the absence of meat with a healthy diet when this is not actually the case. Thats pretty obvious really. As for the claim that cholesterol intake of a vegetarian and especially *vegan* diet needs to be monitored just the same (as a meat eaters diet) – I think that has to be wrong.

Yes, a vegetarian should pay attention to his cholesterol intake but probably not to the same extent as a meat eater as he has already cut out a huge source of cholesterol from his diet. Vegans shouldn't have to monitor their cholesterol intake at all because they are not taking in any significant amounts of cholesterol.

Maybe you mean that they need to monitor their cholesterol *level* as affected by foods that are not cholesterol but effect their level nonetheless? This makes a lot more since, but even then I don't think vegans in general need to monitor cholesterol levels to the same extent as meat eaters because the vegan population doesn't have a huge percentage of members with high cholesterol (compared to the meat eating pop).

 

[DJDannyUhOh]

You can be interested in the moral aspect of vegetarianism without having any interest whatsoever in nutrition (unless you come up with some brilliant reason why to be moral you have to be nutritional too).

I agree, you can. However this is the "Healthy Living" forum. Nutrition should be the central concern here.

Vegans shouldn't have to monitor their cholesterol intake at all because they are not taking in any significant amounts of cholesterol.

At All? So vegans don't eat anything fried? Even in vegetable oil? A common behavioral archetype of vegetarian/vegan diets in the field of health behavior is that people will focus too much on a centralized aspect of a dietary change. One example lies within what we've been discussing. One may be so focused on the fact that they've cut a high fat food out of their diet (such as meat) that they ignore a food that can cause just as much damage - such as was mentioned with fried foods. And it's not just monitoring levels of other foods that can indirectly affect cholesterol level but it's other factors (or lack of facors) as well. Simply removing a high fat food isn't enough to claim health to the point you don't have to monitor things. In fact, simply saying you can be lax on certain health factors isn't a good practice in general, especially if someone new to this discussion is trying to learn healthy practices. If you drinking too much alcohol, abuse tobacco (every day), smoke pot (every day), not exercising regularly, not getting regular check-up's, or taking any other harsh substance in significant frequency, then cutting meat or any other high fat food out of your diet isn't going to matter much.

So now I pose the statement again. A personal value-based choice (and I'm referring to the decision of meat vs. no meat) is just one aspect in our overall state of health. If you still do not understand this, here's another example.

Many ethnic minorities or immigrants in the United States are rooted in the beliefs of traditional healing and hold a fatalistic perspective of life (that means the belief is "what will be will be"). Now, how do you establish someone's health by means of preventative medicine when someone will not accept preventative medicine practices? Does this value-based choice necessarily translate into better health in such a case? If we're here discussing diet from a health perspective, what good is morality when, in such cases, it will be counter productive to health? I'm sorry this has to be long and winded, but I'd rather you understand this than pass it off as "doen't make sense".

 

[StagnantReaction]

Nope. Hydrogenated vegetable oil is a significant source that raises your LDL and subsequently VLDL. If you're eating out or at a fast food place and you order a fried vegetable dish or anything fried for that matter, you will most likely be getting this type of vegetable oil, especially at places that reuse their oils. Coconut, palm, and palm kernel oils are also sources of saturated fats that will raise LDL. Like I said before, just because there is not meat there doesn't mean it's automatically healthy. That's why I pointed out before - it's not "what" you eat, it's "what's inside" what you eat. If you have the interest in the morality of your diet, you need to have just as much interest devoted to nutritional content.

Hydrogenated oils can be used in any type of dish, vegetarian or not. That point is irrelevent to the discussion. When analyzing a certain variable, the trick is to keep all other conditions exactly the same so that you can measure the variable in question.

How about fried foods with non-hydrogenated oils? You seem to group fried foods all the same. I cook with my own vegetable oils, am I ingesting any significant amount of cholesterol? What if I fry it? You are confusing, please clarify.

Coconut, palm, and palm kernel oils are also sources of saturated fats that will raise LDL.

Studies linking saturated fat content and cholesterol levels do not distinguish between trans fats and not. Before making this claim, please cite sources of studies that distinguishes in this area, especially since you also claim that trans fats raise LDL levels.

 

[DJDannyUhOh]

Hydrogenated oils can be used in any type of dish, vegetarian or not. That point is irrelevent to the discussion.

How is this irrelevant? You yourself asked me how vegans can eat LDL cholesterol. And you also said saturated fats (which raise LDL) were solely from animal products. This is what you posted:

Could you please explain how vegans eat LDL cholesterol? Esp. the fried food part. I may be mistaken, but I thought that all LDL cholesterol, "bad cholesterol", was found soley in animal products.

Studies linking saturated fat content and cholesterol levels do not distinguish between trans fats and not. Before making this claim, please cite sources of studies that distinguishes in this area, especially since you also claim that trans fats raise LDL levels.

Studies? Claim? This is general curriculum stuff you should learn in biochem or at least in a nutritional program. You can't get any more credible than the American Heat Association, so here's your reference link.

http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=532

 

[StagnantReaction]

Alright, so my question should have been rephrased. Poor wording on my behalf I suppose. Here is what I meant to ask:

What do vegetarians specifically eat that raises cholesterol that is different from non-vegetarians?

Yes, that is what I was looking for, considering this thread is about the differences between in a vegetarian and meat eating diet, and their consequential health effects. Again, we're not trying to consider variables outside this narrow topic.

Studies? Claim? This is general curriculum stuff you should learn in biochem or at least in a nutritional program.

There is controversy in studying the link between saturated fat and cholesterol levels. There is no distinction between trans fats and non-trans fats in the studies that conclude a link. Therefore, the studies may be flawed, considering that trans fats raise your cholesterol levels. They lack sufficient control in the experiment. This is a common oversight that can skew a study's results unpredictably.

Thus, I asked you to provide me with a study that showed a link between sat fats and heart disease while using the inexistance of trans fats as a control. I did not ask you to appeal to authority.

But suppose that saturated fat is directly linked to heart disease. It is common knowledge that meat contains far more saturated fat than vegetables in general, so vegetarian/vegan risks are far lower than an omnivore.

 

[DJDannyUhOh]

What do vegetarians specifically eat that raises cholesterol that is different from non-vegetarians?

It's not what the two eat differently that one should be concerned about. It's what a vegetarian/vegan "continues" to eat. If we're gonna stress meat as a source of saturated fat, then it's only right to address other sources as well; those being the aforementioned oils of plant origin as not to lose sight of nutritional content in the context of cholesterol.

There is controversy in studying the link between saturated fat and cholesterol levels. There is no distinction between trans fats and non-trans fats in the studies that conclude a link. Therefore, the studies may be flawed, considering that trans fats raise your cholesterol levels. They lack sufficient control in the experiment. This is a common oversight that can skew a study's results unpredictably.

Well if your concern is centered around trans fats, common vegetable shortening is a significant source of trans fat. There really is no controversy here:

Trans fat, like saturated fat and dietary cholesterol, raises the LDL cholesterol that increases your risk for CHD. Americans consume on average 4 to 5 times as much saturated fat as trans fat in their diets.

http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2003/503_fats.html

I'm not just some goof jumping in on this thread/conversation for the sake of debate. I'm currently finishing up my masters in health science with a concentration of health education with certification in nutrition. I'm not going to post erroneous information.

Here are 2 good books you can read on the subject of trans fat, saturated fat, and how the 2 affect cholesterol and their related pathologies.

"Advanced Nutrition and Human Metabolism"
Publisher: Wadsworth Publishing; 4 edition (April 16, 2004)
Authors: Sareen S. Gropper, Jack L. Smith, James L. Groff

"Modern Nutrition in Health and Disease"
Publisher: Lippincott Williams & Wilkins; 10th edition (August 1, 2005)
Authors: Maurice E Shils, Moshe Shike, A. Catharine Ross, Benjamin Caballero, Robert J Cousins

 

[skywise]

At All? So vegans don't eat anything fried? Even in vegetable oil?

Unless I'm very much mistaken vegetable oil does not contain any cholesterol (i know for sure that mine doesn't). Therefore, even if a vegan eats something fried they are not eating or "taking in" any cholesterol. If they're not taking in any cholesterol I don't see why they would need to monitor their cholesterol "intake" which amounts to nothing.

Like I asked in my earlier post, perhaps you mean "intake of foods that have an effect on one's cholesterol (but do not themselves contain cholesterol)?"

Again, unless I'm very much mistaken (and your vehemence is causing me to second guess myself), just because a food is fried doesn't mean that it contains cholesterol.

 

[ebola?]

>>Even if what you say in this post is true, what Ebola quoted still doesn't make any sense. You can be interested in the moral aspect of vegetarianism without having any interest whatsoever in nutrition. . .>>

Exactly.

>>
Like I asked in my earlier post, perhaps you mean "intake of foods that have an effect on one's cholesterol (but do not themselves contain cholesterol)?">>

This is what he means.
It comes out in his longer passages.

ebola

 

[DJDannyUhOh]

Unless I'm very much mistaken vegetable oil does not contain any cholesterol (i know for sure that mine doesn't).

Not true for all. Some vegetable oils are high in saturated fats. Unless you assume that all vegans/vegetarians shop for a specific brand (you rarely find these is restaurants as they are not cost effective), there are many vegetable oils out there that are at the very least partially hydrogenated, if not fully hydrogenated as a preservative measure. Just because a food doesn't contain cholesterol doesn't mean that specific food will not affect your cholesterol level. That's along the same reasoning as foods that claim to be fat free, yet contain a high calorie content, however an excess of calories will inevitably turn into fat. And that's the point I brought up before. When you focus on one aspect of nutrition, you may be overlooking other important, relevant ones.

 

[Coolio]

DJDannyUhOh, you're looking at old scientific theories. Saturated fat does not raise LDL cholesterol levels, nor does dietary intake of cholesterol have anything to do with blood cholesterol levels. Coconut oil intake increases the conversion of cholesterol to pregnenolone, and reduces LDL cholesterol levels. Coconut oil is one of the healthiest possible oils for a human diet.

The myth of saturated fats being unhealthy started many decades ago, and that myth is what led to the incorporation of trans fatty acids in the Western diet. This made for even worse health problems than the reliance on saturated fats from animals as a majority of fatty acid intake.

When discussing fat intake, the only important factor is balance. An optimal balance of all of the various fatty acids is not something known currently, but the fact that Western scientists have their heads up their ass and keep telling people to avoid certain things and recommend replacing them exclusively with a single alternative is the cause of all these nutritional problems.

The average meat eater in the West gets an unhealthy proportion of their fatty acids from animal sources. The average vegetarian in the West probably gets an unhealthy proportion of their fatty acids from commercially produced vegetable oils like soybean oil, corn oil, canola oil, and olive oil. All of these oils are fine in moderation, but to live exclusively off mostly omega-9 and omega-6 fatty acids is just as unhealthy as living off of beef fat. Even worse is the incidence of frying foods in oils with high omega-3 fatty acid content - these oxidize and become toxic during the cooking process.

Balance is the only thing that matters here.

 

[Coolio]

P.S. I feel bad if you are getting certified in nutrition and you think coconut oil is unhealthy, or that dietary intake of cholesterol has anything to do with health problems...

What agricultural corporations fund your school?

 

[DJDannyUhOh]

P.S. I feel bad if you are getting certified in nutrition and you think coconut oil is unhealthy,

Show me where I said coconut oil is "unhealthy". I said it raises LDL. That's the question I was asked and that's what I addressed. That's the whole point here - that people think just because it's plant derived, you have absolutely nothing to monitor in terms of your health. It doesn't take an Einstein to realize that too much of anything is unhealthy for you. And I guess you have some sort of credentials that allow you to ignore or override the FDA and American Heart Association? And quit misquoting me and using it as some sort of rebuttal. Let it go. And you also need to show me where I said you need to eliminate all fats from your diet. I gave you links that both not only state you need fat in your diet, but they clearly distinguish good fats from bad fats, so I don't know where that accusation came from. Fatty acids are an important part of your diet.

that myth is what led to the incorporation of trans fatty acids in the Western diet.

No, you can blame fast food for that one. And I don't think it's fair to put the problems of Western diet solely on one type of food. Tell me, why does France consume so much cheese and yet do not have the magnitude of heart/cardiovascular disease as the US does? Why do Asian nations consume so much sodium yet do not suffer the same? The decline of Western health is much more complicated than mere meat.

It seems that people are holding onto long-held personal beliefs and then attempt to validate reality around them. It seems your interest in discrediting me supersedes that of nutritional truths. . . but as far as I can remember, that has always been the silly behavior within threads that mention meat vs. vegetarianism. It's sad that bickering like this needs to get in the way of health information.

 

[Coolio]

Tell me, why does France consume so much cheese and yet do not have the magnitude of heart/cardiovascular disease as the US does?

Because as I just said, it's a myth that saturated fat causes raised LDL cholesterol levels.

 

[Coolio]

The FDA? The FDA? Hah. They recommend on that link you just provided to eat soft margarine instead of saturated fats! Margarine is a fucking poison, they might as well tell you to use lead plumbing to avoid PVC plumbing.

The FDA and AHA have to consider the interests of corporations before consumers. They're not allowed to tell the truth if it's going to make industry sectors go out of business.

 

[DJDannyUhOh]

Because as I just said, it's a myth that saturated fat causes raised LDL cholesterol levels.

Well, then you need to write the National Institutes of Health and the CDC and let them know they don't know what they're talking about. Tell them Coolio will set them straight.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002468.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/search.do?action=search&queryText=saturated+fats+raise+ldl&x=15&y=9

Saturated fats: These are the biggest dietary cause of high LDL levels ("bad cholesterol"). When looking at a food label, pay very close attention to the % of saturated fat and avoid or limit any foods that are high (for example, over 20% saturated fat). Saturated fats are found in animal products such as butter, cheese, whole milk, ice cream, cream, and fatty meats. They are also found in some vegetable oils -- coconut, palm, and palm kernel oils. (Note: most other vegetable oils contain unsaturated fat and are healthy.)

Give it up, please.

Part of the reason the French do not have this problem is their consumption of red wine. Phytochemicals in the red grape skin inhibit plaque growth in the blood vessels. They also consume less fast food that Western society. They also exercise more than we do. And as a nation, they all have less perceived barriers to health care than we do. And a national guarantee to health care doesn't hurt either.

 

[Coolio]

Lester Crawford, who was Bush's FDA director in 2005, has been charged with lying about stock ownership in companies regulated by the FDA. He will plead guilty tomorrow in federal court to the Information filed today. The court papers also say that Crawford chaired FDA's Obesity Working Group at a time when he and his wife owned stock in soft drink and snack food manufacturer Pepsico Inc., based in Purchase, N.Y., and food product manufacturer Sysco Corp., based in Houston. The panel Crawford was chairing was making decisions affecting food and soft drink manufacturers.

^ From the news today...