Veganism/vegetarianism and "ethical" lifestyle choices

[turkalurk]

So, how do you know somone who spends all their life in slavery really suffer? Considering it's all they've ever known. How do you even know those who spend their entire lives in sexual slavery are unhappy?

Because your knowledge of human nature and ability to emphasise. And the high-level mammals have much in common with us. Just think of our ability to emphatise with our pets and share in their happiness and unhappiness.

Or is there no limit to how inhumane a human being can be towards other creatures?

I actually don't know. There could be sex slaves that might prefer what they have then the alternatives. Regardless, I kniw that the world was meant to have a sex slave industry, because we do. Maybe slavery in general is meant to teach a species about power and the responsibility to use it for the good of others and not against them.

one comment about slavery of a people, through artficial selection processes, an enslaved population will become stronger. opposing something in many ways seems to reinforce or strengthen the opposition. You can't escape the consequences of egoic action, even when egoism is unintentional.

Are you out there trying to free these sex slaves? I wish I could be out there directly making a significant impact on the world like that. I am too lazy and lack that kind of integrity. I used to try my best not to step on bugs, not to kill anything but trap it and take them outside. I grew out of it, after realizing how impractical it can be. I moved into a house infested with mice, and no matter how far I drove them to release them, I would catch more and more. My pets broke out in allergic reactions, mouse shit on our utensils. I tried to block them out, but they chewed through my bloackades. If I were the only one living there, I wonder if I would have been content sharing my space with them. I seriously could have been that far gone. I could have become so dissociated from my human identity I could imagine myself content with living as a wild nature hermit who fed on nuts and berries. But, I had other people to considered, and I started to think about what benefit could humanity serve to the world. what great thing can humanity do, that would make all this suffering worth it. That's when I started making the connection between suffering and intelligence. Then, I started thinking of all the ways our technological advances can someday save the entire planet. Can someday lead to the spread of life across the galaxy. Can someday be used to create a realistic utopian World.

I love my pets like they are my children. If we were trapped in a bomb shelter with no food, I am unsure I could eat him. I would share my resources with him until we starved to death or I got hungry enough to devour him. Its possible I might even try to feed him little pieces of myself if I knew help was on the way and a finger or something small could sustain him. I won't know until that actually happens. I don't know you at all, but you are a human and I value what is closest to me not just with respect to personal relationships, but as a species.
Although, I love my dog to death, if there were no other option, I would roast my dog so you could eat. Do you understand my point?

 

[turkalurk]

Why can't you refrain from making personal insults? How were my suggestions for how discussion should be conducted unclear?

ebola

flex your muscles all you want, i have no respect for your authority. claiming someone isn't all that empathetic and compassionate is not an insult (if I wanted to insult I would call him an asshole) and is not ad hominem when justified with a reasonable explanation. If you want to censor my posts delete them. If you want to censor me, delete me. I certainly won't censor myself. I don't see anything wrong or unfair with the things I say.

 

[Ninae]

You just don't really fit in with the tone of the forum these days. It has been very peaceful for the past six months and people are generally polite and don't try to wind each other up. I know there must be boards that are much worse but this is not like that and quite strict (ignoring warnings usually leads to bans).

 

[ebola?]

I still think its odd how an mod involved in a conversation can issue warnings against his opposition. I think it shows bias that so many nasty attempts to harm my ego in substantial ways went completely unchecked but I got a warning about my implications of smugness?

There was consensus among the whole mod team here behind my warnings. If you consider the decision unfair, I encourage you to contact an admin via PM (Vaya or alasdairm), as that's a better way to reach a viable solution than off-topic complaining in a public venue.

is not ad hominem when justified with a reasonable explanation.

Validity of reasoning is not enough. It must be directly applicable to the argument you're putting forth or that which you're critiquing. If the only topic you're discussing is negative character traits of your opponents in debate, then you should steer things back on topic anyway.

ebola

 

[turkalurk]

You just don't really fit in with the tone of the forum these days. It has been very peaceful for the past six months and people are generally polite and don't try to wind each other up. I know there must be boards that are much worse but this is not like that and quite strict (ignoring warnings usually leads to bans).

So now I don't fit in with the tone of these boards because I won't fall into your style of thinking? I have asked to be banned. I welcome it, I have been on several forums with little to no moderation and there is a much wider array of opinions. How empathetic and compassionate of you to make me feel welcomed?

 

[turkalurk]

There was consensus among the whole mod team here behind my warnings. If you consider the decision unfair, I encourage you to contact an admin via PM (Vaya or alasdairm), as that's a better way to reach a viable solution than off-topic complaining in a public venue.



Validity of reasoning is not enough. It must be directly applicable to the argument you're putting forth or that which you're critiquing. If the only topic you're discussing is negative character traits of your opponents in debate, then you should steer things back on topic anyway.

ebola

if someone uses empathy and compassion for animals as a basis for their ethics, it is perfectly relevant to challenge such a claim on the basis of how that person who claims empathy and compassion for all animals, has showed me(an animal) so little.

 

[Xorkoth]

It's Bluelight policy to not delete accounts. If you don't want to post here, then don't post here. I don't see the problem. Lots of people are happy with Bluelight; if you're not, then that's fine, but continually saying you want to be banned and then posting more seems silly.

 

[turkalurk]

It's Bluelight policy to not delete accounts. If you don't want to post here, then don't post here. I don't see the problem. Lots of people are happy with Bluelight; if you're not, then that's fine, but continually saying you want to be banned and then posting more seems silly.

Not when I have admitted to an addictive and obsessive personality. As a forum regular, you should understand it can be difficult to withdraw from an ongoing conversation, eapecially a hostile one. you should also understand a pack mentality and how one must feel as an individual standing up against the pack in a reasonable way and getting attacked and caught up in tine wasting empty rhetoric not even attacking my statements but nothing but strawman statement. I had rehection theown in my face, avcused of being drunk, accused of all sorts of nonsense, but I can't say a person has showed me a lack of compassion. How blind can you be man. I could only imagine how someone without as much confidence in themselves would have been very hurt by the way they were treated by a "empathetic and compassionate" group of people. So, yea, I feel I should take a stand and make others aware how fucked up and hypocritical this place is.

 

[ebola?]

This is still not the appropriate venue for this.

ebola

 

[Ninae]

So now I don't fit in with the tone of these boards because I won't fall into your style of thinking? I have asked to be banned. I welcome it, I have been on several forums with little to no moderation and there is a much wider array of opinions. How empathetic and compassionate of you to make me feel welcomed?

Again you misunderstand. I wasn't being personal, I was just trying to be objective and tell you how it works. I've been banned more than once for trying to defend myself or part-taking in an argument I didn't start. However, I don't complain about it as I understand it's a way of trying to keep the peace on a very large message board, and no one are really interested in what is fair to you or why you're acting in a way that creates unrest in the first place. It's just how it is and what you have to adjust to if you're going to keep posting. At least you have to try to understand, pull yourself together.

 

[RichardMooner]

we can explain in many ways why its bad to hurt another person. its very logic.

I dont even see why you say all those things. is that a way to say that we cannot know if when we raise chicken in the worst condition, let some dies of disease and suffer for weeks, we couldnt really know if they suffer?

feelings can be explained and we can reproduce the same feeling if we apply the same factors that created that feeling.

why is suffering bad? suffering is inevitable, but if you can reduce the suffering, and you dont, then it becomes bad. therefore, creating suffering in others is bad.

You keep saying bad....but you haven't defined "bad". What's "bad"?

 

[murphythecat]

You keep saying bad....but you haven't defined "bad". What's "bad"?

what is unchangeable isnt bad, it is what it is.
whats bad? everything that create suffering in you or others that you could change, but you dont.

Our thoughts, our feelings, our emotions, our actions are all changeable. if you dont change a negative thought that has arisen in you for something positive, you create negative in you. if a negative thought as arisen, it is what it is. whats bad? its to let that negative thought affect you while you could instead change that negative thought into something positive once you've realized that negative thought had arisen.

for what you cannot change outside of you, it is what it is, but once you know something bad, and dont try to prevent it or change it, it becomes bad. bad only live inside you, so to speak.

 

[Ninae]

Many like to dim the line between good and bad as they feel it gives them more freedom and less responsibility in life. But they sometimes fail to fully realise how accepting responsibility and choosing to restrict your own freedom for a higher ideal can be a great accomplishment and is also necessary to some degree.

 

[Journyman16]

If people stopped breeding...
...there wouldn't be a problem

Taking out all the bits in between I think we have a SOLUTION! :D

 

[Foreigner]

I ate vegetarian for 9 years scrupulously, and found my health frail. I did it for ethical reasons and strongly ignored my bodily impulses to eat dense animal protein. It was a testament to my will power, if nothing else.

I am well aware of the perils of excess meat consumption, but my physical biology trumps all stoic rationalizations. I've also observed that people in their 20s can get away with incompatible dietary choices for long time because their youth shields them from consequences. Once you reach your 30s, your denials become obvious.

Not saying being a veg is wrong but not all of humanity can do it. It's immoral to assume that everyone else's body has the same requirements as yours.

 

[murphythecat]

its been shown again and again that a well balanced veg diet is as complete as any other diet.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864
http://www.dietitians.ca/Your-Health...or-Vegans.aspx
http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Vegetaria...egandiets.aspx
http://www.nutrition.org.uk/publicat...rian-nutrition
http://www.choosemyplate.gov/healthy...egetarian.html
http://www.nhmrc.gov.au/_files_nhmrc...ary_130530.pdf
http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-li...t/art-20046446
http://www.heartandstroke.com/site/c...rian_diets.htm

I ate vegetarian for 9 years scrupulously, and found my health frail. I did it for ethical reasons and strongly ignored my bodily impulses to eat dense animal protein. It was a testament to my will power, if nothing else.

I am well aware of the perils of excess meat consumption, but my physical biology trumps all stoic rationalizations. I've also observed that people in their 20s can get away with incompatible dietary choices for long time because their youth shields them from consequences. Once you reach your 30s, your denials become obvious.

Not saying being a veg is wrong but not all of humanity can do it. It's immoral to assume that everyone else's body has the same requirements as yours.

 

[ebola?]

Given that meat, dairy, eggs, and especially fish are somewhat nutritionally unique combinations, I can see why some people could have difficulty transitioning to vegetarian or vegan. I never did, as I took the transitions as opportunities to learn about new foods, but I could see how someone could view this as a hassle.

ebola

 

[Foreigner]

its been shown again and again that a well balanced veg diet is as complete as any other diet.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864
http://www.dietitians.ca/Your-Health...or-Vegans.aspx
http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Vegetaria...egandiets.aspx
http://www.nutrition.org.uk/publicat...rian-nutrition
http://www.choosemyplate.gov/healthy...egetarian.html
http://www.nhmrc.gov.au/_files_nhmrc...ary_130530.pdf
http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-li...t/art-20046446
http://www.heartandstroke.com/site/c...rian_diets.htm

Sorry but no scientific haggling will override the facts of my sovereign bodily experience in this matter. Saying that I just wasn't well balanced is horse shit. I know more about nutrition and proper meal planning than anyone I know, and it has been part of my medical practice.

Some constitutions are not optimized for the vegetarian lifestyle. Sorry that it's hard for you to accept in your personal ideology.

Nature supported omnivorous living until we had 7 billion humans. Most vegetarian cultures existed in the tropics and hot regions. The northern climates have never supported it year round. The only way people can be veg in northern climates is with supplements and eating imported foods. The earth is still on fire, so that raw vegans in the pacific northwest can eat avocados and cacao and call themselves ethical.

Fuck off.

 

[murphythecat]

oups, I didnt mean to be insulting at all. there's different grades of vegetarian.

Im not vegan, and I think the vegan part is a bit extreme if you have to exclude all dairy product and eggs.
If I look at this:
Lacto-vegetarian diets exclude meat, fish, poultry and eggs, as well as foods that contain them. Dairy products, such as milk, cheese, yogurt and butter, are included.
Lacto-ovo vegetarian diets exclude meat, fish and poultry, but allow dairy products and eggs.
Ovo-vegetarian diets exclude meat, poultry, seafood and dairy products, but allow eggs.
Vegan diets exclude meat, poultry, fish, eggs and dairy products — and foods that contain these products.

I guess im Lacto-ovo. Real vegan would be much harder for me to follow im sure and it would be sure hard. what kind of vegetarian were you?

but beans, nuts, lentils, seeds, fruits, vegetable along with all the starchy food would be enough to feed any person. I dont see why one would absolutely need to eat meat to survive. Maybe some type of people have no choice but to eat meat? im curious if this has been documented and proven as a fact.

Sorry but no scientific haggling will override the facts of my sovereign bodily experience in this matter. Saying that I just wasn't well balanced is horse shit. I know more about nutrition and proper meal planning than anyone I know, and it has been part of my medical practice.

Some constitutions are not optimized for the vegetarian lifestyle. Sorry that it's hard for you to accept in your personal ideology.

Nature supported omnivorous living until we had 7 billion humans. Most vegetarian cultures existed in the tropics and hot regions. The northern climates have never supported it year round. The only way people can be veg in northern climates is with supplements and eating imported foods. The earth is still on fire, so that raw vegans in the pacific northwest can eat avocados and cacao and call themselves ethical.

Fuck off.

 

[ForEverAfter]

Foreigner:

What minerals/vitamins aren't available, these days, in sufficiently bio-available quantities, in developed countries, to suit the vegetarian diet? (I'm not aware of any.)

Did you get your levels tested regularly when you were a vegetarian and/or when you decided that you weren't feeling well enough with a vegetarian diet to sustain it for the rest of your life? If so, what were you low on? And, couldn't you have adjusted your intake according to what your body lacked?

Like Murphy said, I'd understand your point more if it pertained to veganism.
It's hard being vegan. I'm a gluten-free vegan which is a pain in the fucking ass, practically speaking.
But vegetarianism isn't hard, unless you've got some kind of condition/allergy that wipes out a substantial portion of your dietary options... Unless I'm missing something?