Veganism/vegetarianism and "ethical" lifestyle choices

[swilow]

So, I thought in the midst of all our discussions on religion and spirituality that we don't always discuss ethics divorced from the divine.

I have been a vegetarian for about 15 years now (I am 32), and have adopted veganism over the last 2 years. I am actually starting to eat dairy and eggs again as I have lost too much weight recently and feel very run down, so I made an ethical choice on my own behalf. I hope to gain some weight and reintegrate veganism back into my life with more planning and forethought this time.

But anyway, whats you opinion on such practises? Is it futile, or does it have real-world effect? Is that even the point of an ethical lifestyle choice, or is it more symbolic? I can't see how my or my girlfriends veganism has saved many lives or had that much impact, but that isn't neccesarily why I do it. I partially subscirbe to the tenets of deep ecology which suggests that animals lives are as valuable as humans, and not only in regards to their utility. This is important I believe.

I wish to:
-avoid causing suffering to animals. That's the main kindergarten reasoning. I empathise with and deeply respect animals, and wish no harm upon them.
-reduce the impact of mass factory farming and livestock raising on the environment. This reason has become more and more prominent, and is overtaking the first reason I mentioned in terms of inspiration to continue this lifestyle.
-avoid the personal suffering/toll inherent in causing pain and degradation to other lifeforms and the ecosystem they exist within. I think most people are aware of the sorrow of factory farming and mass slaughter of animals, and I think turning the other cheek to this creates a cognitive dissonance, resulting in guilt and reactionary apathy. It is a negative thing, performing actions that cause suffering.
-Maintain healthy levels of 'wild' mass consumed animals; here I refer to the massively depleted fishing stocks worldwide. I don't think my dinner is important enough to potentially condemn a species to oblivion.
-Health reasons. A diet low on red meat is thought to be more healthy in the long run, with vegetarians thought to live for several years longer then carnivores.

I use this lifestyle to try and purify myself and gain a closer communion with Earth and understand more deeply my own role here.

What do we have to say for and against such a lifestyle? I'd be happy for the discussion to encompass other alternative, ethical lifestyle choices...

Peace

 

[Ninae]

I've been a vegetarian since I left school. And my sisters also quit after me. So I've brought about 3 vegetarians to my defence.

I didn't find it hard because the thought of eating animal flesh revolts me (as soon as I was able to think about it). And the suffering animals are put through is one of the things I hate most about this world. It virtually makes it an unfit place to live.

 

[snazzy_sn]

The kindergarten reason works on all fronts, including the dietary onesss.
:D

 

[Abject]

On an ethical basis, farming is bad for nature (both the environment and the livestock)
All the points you listed are true to me, other than some minor details and the last point.

I don't think the act of simply not buying animal product has any effect on the companies until you make it known, by protesting or writing letters to farms/abattoirs/whatever for example, so they can link a reduction of sales to the ethics of how they conduct their business.

Then there's the nutritional side of it.. I couldn't eat healthy without animal product. I don't know about vitamins/minerals but certainly my protein/fat/carb balance would be all fucked up. I would gain a lot of fat as a vegan/vego and I'd probably struggle to get in enough protein due to beans/lentils being the only viable option afaik. Also the taste... is that taste worth the suffering required?? No, but it has a monetary value and that's how I pay tribute to the cows/sheep/pigs/chickens/whatever else I eat.

I have had a few vegan friends myself (weird seeing as I go through at least 4kg meat a week) but at a vegan friends house party I was talking with some guy and he was making the (quite comical) argument that it is an insult to our forefathers/ancestors that after all their struggles to get to the point where meat is so readily available to not eat it. I don't know how well this argument really holds up, but it had me in tears and gasping for air when we has making his case.

 

[methamaniac]

I think they need to reclassify fish and some birds as plants. It would make the whole vegetarian thing a lot easier.
I still wouldn't be able to go full vegan as I couldn't give up Jello.

 

[Abject]

Interestingly enough, from an ethical standpoint, I forget which people held this belief but to surmise it because fish/sea creatures and humans/land creatures do not share the same terrain? (missing word) it's morally worse for humans to eat/hunt from the sea than it is the land.

 

[Ninae]

Studies have shown commercial meat to be very toxic, prone to triggering diseases like cancer, and shortening of lifespan. Most meat products, like sausages, burgers, kebabs, etc. have no nutritional value, anyway (more like negative nutritional value). If you can afford organic steak it would be different.

Though this is a very unpopular view for all kinds of reasons. And mostly economical. But my father has worked in this field (meat inspecting) all his life. Not that he was happy when we all chose to become vegetarian. But the sins of the fathers, etc.

My grandfather even worked as a butcher. I once asked him how he could do it and he said "You just cut the throat of the pig so quick he doesn't have time to feel it". He wasn't very delicate, but he had a real way with animals, if he was around they didn't care about anyone else. But he genuinly loved animals and I suppose it's good for someone like that to be in that position as he actually had compassion for them.

 

[Abject]

Studies have shown commercial meat to be very toxic, prone to triggering diseases like cancer, and shortening of lifespan. Most meat products, like sausages, burgers, kebabs, etc. have no nutritional value, anyway (more like negative nutritional value). If you can afford organic steak it would be different.

lololololol how confused u are

I love this whole grass-fed beef bullshit, back 20-30 years ago corn fed beef was the expensive stuff and grass fed was seen as the inferior cut. It's all marketing, but science doesn't lie and meat is literally the healthiest food around. Forget the proform vitamins, the minerals, the saturated fats, focus on the fact there's no other source of complete protein that is "pure"
but this isn't a nutritional discussion.

 

[Birc0014]

i find its getting harder and harder to eat meat as time passes, that wasnt intended to sound gay. even chicken is getting to be too much work, I have no faith in a vegetarian diet or any other diet for that matter, however I find I like things like avocado, high fat yogurt, hummus, eggs, cheese, nuts, and some seafoods but I still fuckin hate fish. this all seems to have coincided with me regularly taking opiates, maybe being a junky may lead to better food choices

 

[swilow]

lololololol how confused u are

I love this whole grass-fed beef bullshit, back 20-30 years ago corn fed beef was the expensive stuff and grass fed was seen as the inferior cut. It's all marketing, but science doesn't lie and meat is literally the healthiest food around. Forget the proform vitamins, the minerals, the saturated fats, focus on the fact there's no other source of complete protein that is "pure"
but this isn't a nutritional discussion.

There's room for that discussion though. Making a lifestyle choice based on nutrition is still an ethical decision.

You possibly mean "complete" instead of "pure". There aren't many single sources that contain as much protein and broader vitamin/minerals, but there are plenty of vegetable sources that can be combined to give one a complete nutritional profile. And there is a huge difference between a steak and a sausage.

meat is literally the healthiest food around

What meat/s do you refer to? Red meat can be very high in saturated fats, and there is ample evidence that too much red meat can cause cardivascular disease. I'm not condeming meat at all; lean red meat is very very healthy, but your statement was slightly incorrect

 

[Ninae]

lololololol how confused u are

I love this whole grass-fed beef bullshit, back 20-30 years ago corn fed beef was the expensive stuff and grass fed was seen as the inferior cut. It's all marketing, but science doesn't lie and meat is literally the healthiest food around. Forget the proform vitamins, the minerals, the saturated fats, focus on the fact there's no other source of complete protein that is "pure"
but this isn't a nutritional discussion.

All meat-eaters say stuff like that. But that's only natural or how else are they supposed to feel comfortable eating meat. I'm sure if I was still eating meat I wouldn't like to consider any of that in particular.

But you are seriously misguided if you actually believe science has proved meat is the healthiest food around. It has done no such thing, on the contrary, it's been unwilling to disclose much of all the ways it can be harmful to our health. You are just repeating things you have been told and like to believe in.

Also, most of the "research" and "marketing" in the food industry is used to promote meat consumption. That's where most of the money goes. Our economy would practically crash if everyone stopped eating meat over night and it's not what this society "wants" at this point in time.

And it's not the only source of protein by any stretch. There is plenty of protein in diary, grains, seeds and nuts, bee products. There are proteins in fruits and vegetables too and egg is a perfect protein.

Anyway, this is such a divisive and emotional issue, there's no way to come to any agreement about it.

 

[Abject]

There's room for that discussion though. Making a lifestyle choice based on nutrition is still an ethical decision.

In that case, vegan and vegetarian diets would be very unethical for me and my eating habits. I have a big appetite, so I need to eat a lot of food to satisfy myself.
If I were to not eat animal product I would have to eat many more grams of carbs (and possibly fat) to reach the same level of satiety that meat can provide.
I also eat organs, which have many more vitamins than you'll find in any vegetables (you can actually have too much proform vitamin, compared to pissing out excess preform vitamins)

You possibly mean "complete" instead of "pure".

No, I meant pure. Meat is around 25g of protein per 100g, give or take ~5g (except for american cut bacon maybe)
Depending on your animal and cut, I can have some lean kangaroo with 22g of protein and 1g of fat (and trace/negligible carbs) per 100g for less than 99 calories.
Compare that to any plant protein, whether it's lentils, peas, beans, nuts, whatever. You get the protein, but it also comes with double-triple that in carbs or fat, hence it being a "pure" source of protein.
If you need more protein, you eat more meat; less, less. If it were a plant source, you would have to compensate for the other macros (not that you ignore fat)

What meat/s do you refer to?

When I say meat I mean a dead creature. Whether it's red, white, sea food, rodents or insects, it's all meat.
I was mainly referring to cows, sheep, pigs and chickens.

Red meat can be very high in saturated fats

This is a good thing

and there is ample evidence that too much red meat can cause cardivascular disease.

Can you please provide some decent evidence of this? I know epidemiological studies are suboptimal but the old links to cardiovascular disease have dispelled and I'm not aware of any good evidence at this stage.
I have seen some fairly decent evidence for a link between meat intake and colorectal cancer, but no other types of cancer or diseases.
Dietary cholesterol intake does not affect homeopathic cholesterol in average people. Saturated fat is not inherently bad for the heart and only impacts ones health negatively if the lifestyle (rest of diet, exercise) is unhealthy. You can eat all the saturated fat (and red meat) you want if you're healthy and your LDL won't suddenly spike up because of it.
In fact, if we want to get into it, the three saturated fats that are capable of raising your LDL are lauric, myristic, and palmitic acids, not the rest of the "saturated fats"

but your statement was slightly incorrect

Please talk on what was incorrect, as you didn't actually mention anything other than cardiovascular disease which is unproven afaik. The amount of times I've heard people say "red meat is bad for the heart" feels unbelievable but that's literally what people thought only 30 years ago..

Ninae I don't feel the need to properly address your post other than the fact I never claimed meat is the only source of complete proteins, nor have you shown any of ways red meat is harmful..
If I was you, I would've started here but I feel like you're more the type to link to "the china study"

I called meat the healthiest food around as you could go the rest of your life without touching a carbohydrate. You need protein and fat to be healthy, and meat is the best source of protein.
As I said earlier, I would get fat trying to not eat animal product, therefore meat is the foundation of a healthy diet for me.

If I bring up the fact that your liver can only process so much sucrose/fructose before it becomes unhealthy and raises your LDL leading to cardiovascular disease, a proven piece of science (unlike the correlation used in epidemiological studies) how are you gonna convince me it's healthier to try and get protein from fruit? I treat fruit like junk food, and I actually feel it's healthier to eat dark chocolate than a banana, or quality ice cream over some pineapple.

Anyway, I've had my little spiel about nutrition and old lies being circulated. I wasn't really gonna make it about nutrition because that's just unfair on you guys. I agree that farming practices are unethical.
I can't imagine how bad my vitamin profile would be if I were to try and eat vegan.. i'd have to drop my fat intake dramatically or just stay in a calorie surplus and get fat as fuck, which is also unhealthy.. Enough of that.

 

[-=SS=-]

But anyway, whats you opinion on such practises? Is it futile, or does it have real-world effect? Is that even the point of an ethical lifestyle choice, or is it more symbolic? I can't see how my or my girlfriends veganism has saved many lives or had that much impact, but that isn't neccesarily why I do it. I partially subscirbe to the tenets of deep ecology which suggests that animals lives are as valuable as humans, and not only in regards to their utility. This is important I believe

From a 'spiritual' standpoint there is absolutely nothing wrong with eating meat. Nothing at all. People love to make reference to our brothers in India and elsewhere who choose to be vegetarian and use that as a base for justifying the "meat eating is not spiritual" position. All meat eating does is perturb brain chemistry slightly, which if you are trying to reach samadhi can hinder the clarity of your thinking process.. but at the end of the day eating meat would not prevent your from reaching any state.

Ethically I understand why people make the commitment they do. Factory farming and practices could be massively improved. But this is a symptom of a wider issue, that of rapid urbanization and the take over of life by the corporate-industrial-government state. Personally I don't care. I would love to see animals lives improved, I'd still eat them regardless, but for me I'd rather focus my efforts on solving the root of the problem and not make my life more difficult than it already is.. I don't particularly enjoy eating anyway but it's something I have to do to survive. Going vegetarian only makes my life more difficult whilst doing nothing to solve the real issue. Pissing into the wind is not a priority for me.

 

[Ninae]

From a 'spiritual' standpoint there is absolutely nothing wrong with eating meat.

This is really a simple issue.

Imagine another higher evolved species came to our world. They would be significantly superior to us in terms of intelligence, culture, etc. and would equate us with animals they had the natural right to capture and exploit in any way that they wanted.

Only I doubt there would be anyone who saw "nothing spiritually wrong" with us being reduced to that or just accepted the survival-of-the-fittest regime. I would bet most would cry out "Where is God?" in that scenario (in fact, in situations like that people tend to blame God).

But there is no real difference to us and animals being treated that way (except in our minds). It's not like we matter more to God than animals. They're more like creatures placed in our care who we have failed.

Still, animals forgive us for this. They have never-ending forgiveness because they're in a way closer to the divine than we are (they also don't blame God which is another thing they have to their advantage).

 

[-=SS=-]

This is really a simple issue.

Yeh, it is. We're animals. They're animals. Animals eat animals all the time, it's part of the refining of material energy up the chain of biology to higher and more subtle forms. Your imagined scenario also presumes that we are not already food/cattle for another species of superior organism.. which in my opinion, we are, we just can't perceive them (our rapacious sexual expenditure is part of the equation).

Meat is a valid part of the human diet. End of story.

 

[swilow]

In that case, vegan and vegetarian diets would be very unethical for me and my eating habits. I have a big appetite, so I need to eat a lot of food to satisfy myself.
If I were to not eat animal product I would have to eat many more grams of carbs (and possibly fat) to reach the same level of satiety that meat can provide.
I also eat organs, which have many more vitamins than you'll find in any vegetables (you can actually have too much proform vitamin, compared to pissing out excess preform vitamins)


No, I meant pure. Meat is around 25g of protein per 100g, give or take ~5g (except for american cut bacon maybe)
Depending on your animal and cut, I can have some lean kangaroo with 22g of protein and 1g of fat (and trace/negligible carbs) per 100g for less than 99 calories.
Compare that to any plant protein, whether it's lentils, peas, beans, nuts, whatever. You get the protein, but it also comes with double-triple that in carbs or fat, hence it being a "pure" source of protein.
If you need more protein, you eat more meat; less, less. If it were a plant source, you would have to compensate for the other macros (not that you ignore fat)


When I say meat I mean a dead creature. Whether it's red, white, sea food, rodents or insects, it's all meat.
I was mainly referring to cows, sheep, pigs and chickens.


This is a good thing


Can you please provide some decent evidence of this? I know epidemiological studies are suboptimal but the old links to cardiovascular disease have dispelled and I'm not aware of any good evidence at this stage.
I have seen some fairly decent evidence for a link between meat intake and colorectal cancer, but no other types of cancer or diseases.
Dietary cholesterol intake does not affect homeopathic cholesterol in average people. Saturated fat is not inherently bad for the heart and only impacts ones health negatively if the lifestyle (rest of diet, exercise) is unhealthy. You can eat all the saturated fat (and red meat) you want if you're healthy and your LDL won't suddenly spike up because of it.
In fact, if we want to get into it, the three saturated fats that are capable of raising your LDL are lauric, myristic, and palmitic acids, not the rest of the "saturated fats"


Please talk on what was incorrect, as you didn't actually mention anything other than cardiovascular disease which is unproven afaik. The amount of times I've heard people say "red meat is bad for the heart" feels unbelievable but that's literally what people thought only 30 years ago..

Well, you said that "meat is literally the healthiest food around" and I don't think you can really say that with much certainty. Thus I said "slightly incorrect" because I don't think you've proven that to the exclusion of all else. But please don't, it doesn't need to become meat vs not-meat. I don't give a shit if other people eat meat, its their lives and I don't consider them when I make my dietary choice. I do think that people should maake ethical food choices regardless of what they choose to eat.

You are right though, there does seemt to be mixed ideas about whether meat eating does contribute to heart disease http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3483430/ I'm not so sure that the idea has been dsproven though but I don't eat meat so I don't really care

 

[rickolasnice]

I respect those that are vegetarian / vegan.. And so want to join them..

Meat as part of your diet in it's own right is not unhealthy unless it is too much.. just like anything else.

But the way that livestock are treated from birth until death is nothing less than disgusting.. and the meat industry does more harm to the environment than ANYTHING else..

If you eat meat you should watch Earthlings - A documentary about the meat industry.. It's fucking nasty.

Saying that - I would have no problem hunting, killing and eating a wild animal or even raising and killing my own - kept happy of course (although I could imagine it being upsetting / tough when the time came), or freegenating (eating meat that has been thrown out from shops or your mates bacon sandwich he no longer wants)

 

[Ninae]

Most people need to supress those things to feel comfortable eating meat...they don't like to be reminded.

 

[rickolasnice]

Going vegetarian only makes my life more difficult whilst doing nothing to solve the real issue. Pissing into the wind is not a priority for me.

I understand and somewhat agree with what you're saying here but surely you don't apply this logic to everything you do..

"I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but still I can do something; and because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do."

"Be the change you want to see in the world"

 

[Flickering]

So, I thought in the midst of all our discussions on religion and spirituality that we don't always discuss ethics divorced from the divine.

I have been a vegetarian for about 15 years now (I am 32), and have adopted veganism over the last 2 years. I am actually starting to eat dairy and eggs again as I have lost too much weight recently and feel very run down, so I made an ethical choice on my own behalf. I hope to gain some weight and reintegrate veganism back into my life with more planning and forethought this time.

But anyway, whats you opinion on such practises? Is it futile, or does it have real-world effect? Is that even the point of an ethical lifestyle choice, or is it more symbolic? I can't see how my or my girlfriends veganism has saved many lives or had that much impact, but that isn't neccesarily why I do it. I partially subscirbe to the tenets of deep ecology which suggests that animals lives are as valuable as humans, and not only in regards to their utility. This is important I believe.

I wish to:
-avoid causing suffering to animals. That's the main kindergarten reasoning. I empathise with and deeply respect animals, and wish no harm upon them.
-reduce the impact of mass factory farming and livestock raising on the environment. This reason has become more and more prominent, and is overtaking the first reason I mentioned in terms of inspiration to continue this lifestyle.
-avoid the personal suffering/toll inherent in causing pain and degradation to other lifeforms and the ecosystem they exist within. I think most people are aware of the sorrow of factory farming and mass slaughter of animals, and I think turning the other cheek to this creates a cognitive dissonance, resulting in guilt and reactionary apathy. It is a negative thing, performing actions that cause suffering.
-Maintain healthy levels of 'wild' mass consumed animals; here I refer to the massively depleted fishing stocks worldwide. I don't think my dinner is important enough to potentially condemn a species to oblivion.
-Health reasons. A diet low on red meat is thought to be more healthy in the long run, with vegetarians thought to live for several years longer then carnivores.

Bold mine. These (especially the part I bolded) are my reasons too. I was vegetarian for a couple of years, then decided I must be iron-deficient because I was getting too tired - then realised it was just depression. But by then I was comfortably back into the habit of eating meat. Thought now and then that I ought to stop again someday.

Recently (this week) I decided I was being weak-willed and that I ought to stick by my convictions. So I'm back to it.