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Social Justice Transgender and gender identity discussion

What No One Is Telling You: An Athlete Who Ran NCAA Track As A Man For 3 Years Just Won An NCAA Women’s Title

By Robert Johnson
May 28, 2019


Over Memorial Day weekend, everyone who cares about the future of women’s sport saw their worst fears become a reality.
Transgender woman CeCe Telfer, who was born and raised as Craig Telfer and competed on the Franklin Pierce University men’s track and field team during her first three years of college, won the women’s 400-meter hurdles national title at the 2019 NCAA Division II Outdoor Track & Field Championships. Telfer dominated the competition, winning in 57.53 as second place was way back in 59.21.
Prior to joining the women’s team this season, Telfer was a mediocre DII athlete who never came close to making it to nationals in the men’s category. In 2016 and 2017, Telfer ranked 200th and 390th, respectively, among DII men in the 400 hurdles (Telfer didn’t run outdoor track in 2018 as either a man or woman). Now she’s the national champion in the event simply because she switched her gender (Telfer’s coach told us that even though she competed on the men’s team her first three years, her gender fluidity was present from her freshman year).
The fact that Telfer can change her gender and immediately become a national champion is proof positive as to why women’s sports needs protection. Telfer ran slightly faster in the 400 hurdles competing as a man (57.34) than as a woman (57.53), even though the men’s hurdles are six inches taller than the women’s hurdles. Yet when Telfer ran 57.34 as a man, she didn’t even score at her conference meet — she was just 10th at the Northeast-10 Outdoor Track and Field Championships in 2016. Now she’s the national champion.
Ostensibly, the NCAA has a policy in place to protect cisgender women athletes and prevent male-to-female transgender athletes from dominating the women’s category. The NCAA transgender handbook states that an MTF transgender athlete must take “one calendar year of testosterone suppression treatment” in order to compete in the women’s category, but the vagueness of that statement is remarkable. There is no mention of a minimum testosterone level that must be achieved or a minimum level of medication that must be taken, nor how those levels are to be monitored. Contrast that to the International Olympic Committee, which requires that an MTF transgender athlete “must demonstrate that her total testosterone level in serum has been below 10nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to her first competition.”
We reached out to the NCAA to ask for specifics on their transgender policy, and whether it is actually enforced with testing. They referred us to the the transgender handbook mentioned above and said we could expect a more detailed response on Wednesday.

Medical physicist Joanna Harper, who has served as an adviser to the IOC on transgender issues and has made the transition from male to female herself, said the NCAA doesn’t have a set limit for testosterone for trans women, nor does she believe there is consistent verification of T levels. “The NCAA has not set a maximum T level for trans women, and I don’t believe that they do any independent verification of hormone levels,” said Harper.
The theory goes that if one greatly reduces their testosterone, their performances in sport should decline significantly. Harper told me one would expect roughly a 10% decrease in performance for flat events (she wasn’t sure it would be the great in the hurdles due to the difference in hurdle heights). Yet Telfer is actually running faster in a few flat events as a woman as compared to what she ran as a man. Her 60-meter personal best as a man was 7.67. As a woman, it’s 7.63. Her flat 400-meter pb was 55.77 as a man and it’s 54.41 as a woman.
However, her coach Zach Emerson said that anyone looking only at Telfer’s times to try to see if the NCAA’s rules on testosterone suppression for MTF transgender athletes is effective would be making a mistake. He said that the difference between Telfer’s work ethic this year compared to her first three was vast.
“She’s been been incredibly motivated this year and I think the transition one million percent had something to do with that. It’s like night and day as far as what she was willing to do as an athlete and how committed she was,” said Emerson, who indicated that while Telfer always had a large presence on the team, she often only showed up to practice a couple of times a week until this year. As a coach, he said she wasn’t an athlete that he could rely on. “You couldn’t look at her during her first three years and say that’s an athlete doing their best. As a coach, I could not do that.”
Frustrated by the fact that track meets were the only place in her life where she was referred to a man, Telfer quit the team in January 2018 before coming back out for the women’s team in October with renewed motivation. Since coming back out for the women’s team, Emerson said Telfer has been a “model athlete” who has not missed a single day of practice, one who hit the weight room for the first time, one who stayed on top of her studies and one who made sure she got ample sleep.

“She did phenomenally well [in doing all that we asked her this year] and has been a completely different, motivated athlete,” said Emerson. “It’s only worth doing if she does her best. She made that very, very clear at the start of this year — that she wants to do this because she loves the sport, she wants to do well, and she wants to be genuine to herself. And we held her accountable, saying, ‘You have to be an example for everybody else on our team — let alone everybody else [that is paying attention].’”
While Emerson admitted he doesn’t know how he would have reacted if he were a rival coach, he said he’s very proud of what Telfer has accomplished. “People can have opinions on that all they want, but at the end of the day as a coach, I have to be proud of someone that works their ass off and does the things that I ask and is a good teammate. You have to be proud of those things.”

 
This is one of the ways in which I think biological sex should be considered over chosen gender. Humans have evolved to where on average, men are faster and stronger than women. So if your biological sex is male, and you realize at some point that you identify as a woman, then you should be able to feel good about yourself, use whatever bathroom you want, and most anything else, but you shouldn't get to compete in professional sports against other women because you will have an unfair advantage. It's not about your own rights at that point, it's about the right for everyone else to enjoy an equal opportunity.

However I see people against gender rights use this sort of scenario as ab argument against the entire idea of people being deciding to change their gender and to me that makes no sense, this is just one situation, it has no bearing on anyone or anything except professional athletes who have changed gender.
 
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What about the gender studies confusing kids about this before they hit puberty kind of creating a snowball of insecure snowflakes with nothing where to belong if you ask me
 
Gender roles have been very rigid in western civilization (actually most civilizations I'd say) for a long time and this is the first time people who are transgender have really felt free to be that way at all. There are a lot of people who are angry and afraid about it (they shouldn't be, but they are), so there is a strong effort to make transgender a legitimate thing in the eyes of society. Hopefully one day in the future, people won't have to tell kids "it's okay if you grow up to be a girl" and teach it in the school curriculum, it would be a non-issue that no one would feel oppressed about. But for now society is reacting against oppression.

I think parents should be teaching their kids this stuff anyway, school isn't really the place for that sort of thing. But a lot of parents are likely to still teach their kids to hate and fear those who are different, so I also see why it's being taught in schools.

I also tend to think the people crying about how kids are being indoctrinated into confusion are overblowing the issue. Not that it doesn't happen because I can imagine an adult with an agenda making a child very confused, or even just someone not doing a good job of communicating it.
 
Yeah to be honest, I've long thought people worry too much about children becoming "confused". I just don't buy it.

As for indoctrination, well, I tend to say that the difference between indoctrinating kids and responsibly bringing them up, in all but maybe the most extreme examples, is purely a matter of the parents perspective. All parents pass on what they believe to their kids to some extent. What you teach is right and wrong is going to depend on what you the parent think is right and wrong.

I see very little difference in behavior in what people call upbringing as opposed to what people call indoctrination. Except that it's doctrinarion when they don't agree with what's being taught.
 
Yeah to be honest, I've long thought people worry too much about children becoming "confused". I just don't buy it.

As for indoctrination, well, I tend to say that the difference between indoctrinating kids and responsibly bringing them up, in all but maybe the most extreme examples, is purely a matter of the parents perspective. All parents pass on what they believe to their kids to some extent. What you teach is right and wrong is going to depend on what you the parent think is right and wrong.

I see very little difference in behavior in what people call upbringing as opposed to what people call indoctrination. Except that it's doctrinarion when they don't agree with what's being taught.
Rumour or not can you blame parents for wanting to homeschool?
 
Public schools aren't the place to indoctrinate kids with the lbgt agenda imo.

As far as the athlete, I don't think it's fair for them to compete against women that were born women. The fact that they weren't placing very good competing against other men and than all the sudden start winning when against women is telling.
 
Ofcourse they cant compete if they were allowed to whats to stop a man who 'decides' he wants to be a woman enter a womans kick boxing ring the odds would be four fold
 
Public schools aren't the place to indoctrinate kids with the lbgt agenda imo.

As far as the athlete, I don't think it's fair for them to compete against women that were born women. The fact that they weren't placing very good competing against other men and than all the sudden start winning when against women is telling.

There's a difference between "public schools indoctrinating kids with the lgbt agenda" and "public schools indoctrinating kids with ideas that coincidentally are aligned with the lgbt agenda".

pete556 said:
Ofcourse they cant compete if they were allowed to whats to stop a man who 'decides' he wants to be a woman enter a womans kick boxing ring the odds would be four fold

Combat sports have weight classes. An experienced female mma fighter vs male fighter who are the same weight wouldn't be as unfair as some might think.
 
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Combat sports have weight classes. An experienced female mma fighter vs male fighter who are the same weight wouldn't be as unfair as some might think.

There's biological reasons why men don't compete against women in sports. If the left is supposedly about equality then what the hell is so equal about someone who was born male competing against females? I respect you dude but I gotta totally disagree on this. I suppose the degree of advantage could be debated that a male fighter would have over a female fighter in the same weight class, but they are going to have an advantage just by being male.
 
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There's a difference between "public schools indoctrinating kids with the lgbt agenda" and "public schools indoctrinating kids with ideas that coincidentally are aligned with the lgbt agenda".



Combat sports have weight classes. An experienced female mma fighter vs male fighter who are the same weight wouldn't be as unfair as some might think.
Pfft that's fucked up then come on everyone knows males have more muscles than females or is that to sexist
 
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Seriously? There's biological reasons why men don't compete against women in sports. If the left is supposedly about equality then what the hell is so equal about someone who was born male competing against females? I respect you dude but I gotta totally disagree on this. I suppose the degree of advantage could be debated that a male fighter would have over a female fighter in the same weight class, but they are going to have an advantage just by being male.

I probably should have capitalized or bolded AS since my only point was that if you put a relatively large woman versus a relatively small man (as in equal weights), the disparity wouldn't be AS significant as some might think. In other words, in most cases the man would still have the advantage, but if he did not take the fight seriously or in any way "took it easy" on her he might find his ass knocked out.

Advantages based on biological sex aren't the same across all sports. That much should be obvious. So I would think it'd be extremely important to take these kinds of situations on a case by case basis. Athleticism and strength is fine but let's not forget about SKILL and all the intangibles.

Pfft that's fucked up then come on everyone knows males have more muscles than females or is that to sexist
am I being to sexist for you mal3volent?

I like you man but yeah ...just to be clear...we probably don't agree on much politically. That's okay with you right?
 
No one here can take a joke I know Its me Pete the ignorant racist lets pelt him with apples very good
 
I probably should have capitalized or bolded AS since my only point was that if you put a relatively large woman versus a relatively small man (as in equal weights), the disparity wouldn't be AS significant as some might think. In other words, in most cases the man would still have the advantage, but if he did not take the fight seriously or in any way "took it easy" on her he might find his ass knocked out.

Advantages based on biological sex aren't the same across all sports. That much should be obvious. So I would think it'd be extremely important to take these kinds of situations on a case by case basis. Athleticism and strength is fine but let's not forget about SKILL and all the intangibles.

I guess it boils down to how do you go about making sports fair for everyone and not just the trans athelete. I don't really have a great answer, but I think something needs to be done. I just can't think that it's fair for someone born a man to be competing with women. That's my view anyways.
 
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If you'd like to see the intersection of sexism, racism, and a guest appearance by transphobia (bc this doesn't even have a trans person in it), look no farther than the case of Caster Semenya.
Semenya is a Gold Medal Olympian whose naturally occurring testosterone is higher than the International Association of Athletics Federations allows. Rather than, say, "you were created in a way that is perfect and beautiful and were blessed with chemicals that may or may not improve your athletic ability", they said "take these pills bc we must bring you, a black woman, down".
This is racist because can we please stop having a governing body led by white men criticize black people's bodies?
This is sexist because can we please stop trying to police women's bodies?
This is transphobic because not only is the idea that any sort deviation from some "standard set" of female qualities implies that you are less than a woman. It is also transphobic because Semenya was forced to under go a sex verification test in 2015.

^^ So that was her post right?

And my response was this .. “Isn't Caster Semenya a man though? Or was a man? Caster Semenya is trans right? And if that is the case let's be honest.. they are not being sexist or racist. But men naturally have higher testosterone than women and this is why when you introduce trans people and gay people.. problems occur. But of course we have to try to accommodate to everyone. And I know people will hate me for saying this but I have no hate but come on now. This is a man competing against women.. the fact that he's a man and he's black means he is going to smoke their ass and come out victorious every time.. so they should accept it knowing fully what's going on.. lol people always stirring up shit just to get some drama going on in their lives”


Then she says “the only thing I have to say to your ignorant statement is intersex is not trans”


And another person responds “I'm pretty sure I know exactly what you meant by the "and he's black" but but let's get it in your own words”

What would you guys have said if you were me because I wasn't trying to offend anyone honestly! Could someone help me understand what I did that was wrong and how I would be able to word it next time so I don't offend anyone? Thank you! Just need some opinions on this and how you would respond that way I don't make the same mistake if I made any mistakes that is.

Im from South Africa and she was born a hermaphrodite but assigned a female at birth.
It has nothing to do with race or the fact that she is black, there was another athlete from India that had the same issue and she won her case.

I personally dont feel its fair to make her take hormones etc to lower her testosterone, at the end of the day she is not enhancing her performance illegally and with drugs so therefore she should be allowed to compete.
 
I guess it boils down to how do you go about making sports fair for everyone and not just the trans athelete. I don't really have a great answer, but I think something needs to be done.
Have you thought about the fact that T levels are naturally greater in the mornings as opposed to the afternoon?

That's not fair at all. Should all sports be done at night to make the RECORD setting times fair?

You'll never have a great answer, because it's not as simple as you are making it.
 
I'm not sure that's a great argument since testosterone is more of a long term enhancement than an immediate one, but ultimately I think I agree with the point.

As I think I said earlier in the thread, following all these concerns about hormone levels to their full conclusion opens up a very large number of problems with how sport is supposed to be made fair and how much of an impossible goal it might be.

Personally I just wish there were more data to inform an opinion. One person isn't enough. I'd be willing to support barring male to female transgender people from certain sports if there were evidence of unfair advantage. Evidence, not a questionable assumption made by people who I think frequently overestimate the fixed physical differences between men and women.

Or rather, I would support it, if I gave much of a shit about sports. ;) Which I don't. Which is why I don't post in this thread too often. :)
 
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