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Social Justice Transgender and gender identity discussion

I'm not. I answered your question in spite of the fact it was a loaded question, much like asking someone if they've stopped beating their wife.
 
I can't believe there's parents out there that encourage their children to question their identity. Being supportive is one thing but this shit's on another level. Just because your 8 year old son plays with dolls doesn't really mean anything imo.
 
Thank you for the clarity.

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Shadowmeister referenced my words elsewhere, and I did feel they fit this discussion better. Forgive me for quoting myself:

TheLoveBandit said:
Here's where I think the difference may lie - it was a clear objectively understood standard that has become subjective, and controlled by the individual.

Until now, you could always describe someone as tall-short, black-white, fast-slow, boy-girl, fat-skinny. All of those remain objectively evaluated by anyone today except one. Yes, I get that they are relative in that a fat guy may think someone is skinny, while a skinny guy may think that same person is fat. But defining fat and skinny remains a straightforward comparison and evaluation with known definitions. With a known way of describing people, you have a set of rules or expectations to go with that definition. You won't expect a fat guy to fit thru a small door or run fast. Everyone has common expectations of an individual and they have a common idea of how to interact with that person.

Race is slightly different in that it has evolved significantly over the past 50y. If a black man today walks up to another black man and refers to him by the n-word, it can be acceptable. A white person isn't allowed to say the word to that same black man, or anyone actually, as it is not socially acceptable. It used to be, but it isn't anymore. There are a lot of racial stereotypes that have been broken down (perhaps not erased, but lessened by and large). My point here is that there used to be clearly defined rules and expectations between blacks and whites in America. We may not agree with what those were, but everyone clearly understood the rules, expectations, and how to interact with someone based on easily observable skin color. We still have rules and expectations, they've evolved significantly from then (YAY!) but we still have that generally common understanding of how person A sees and speaks with person B.

It used to be women wore dresses or skirts, men wore pants. Simple, easily observable differences to help all of us know who we are dealing with, what are the rules and expectations between two persons. Women evolved into wearing more pants, shirts, etc. This made the clothing gender neutral, but you could still generally tell if you were interacting with a man or woman and the socially understood rules and norms applied. Interestingly, men wearing heels and dresses remained 'out' in terms of social acceptability, but you absolutely still knew you were dealing with a man, and he knew he'd get dealt with as a man. Nowadays, it doesn't matter what you see or think you see, you have to respect the other person based on what they feel themselves to be. This creates a confusing situation in that most don't want to offend, but don't necessarily know who they are dealing with to be able to follow any kind of rules they know. Likewise, some may wish to offend, and this lays easy groundwork to troll and insult this way once you know who you are dealing with. But even if you 'know'....the other person could, by the same theory that allows them to see themselves as another gender, to then change their mind back.

We still can't see people without race. As much as we may try, this is not something we can 'unsee' or not have partially recognize and drive certain behaviour or expectations. Same for seeing someone fat or slow. These are factors of who that person is. The best we can hope for is to keep moving to the point where we see these things, we don't see them as a difference that drives different rules or expectations. We STILL can't expect a slow person to go fast, or a skinny person to be fat, but for the most part these don't matter. Skin color, we are moving closer, matters less and less. Gender, is still very early in shifting the rules, and they are damn hard to define for anyone outside their own skin. I think we'll get closer to it not mattering, but for now it is still a very uncomfortable shift for many as it says their roles and expectations are no longer valid, and they are struggling to find a new way to interact with such individuals.

My favorite mind concept for this is to pretend you're on a phone call with them. It takes all visual cues out of the equation, and while accents and speech patterns will still indicate or influence your interaction with the person on the other end, you will never really know if they are tall-short, fat-skinny, ... and it proves these really don't matter. There are still audio clues on a phone that will guide you towards race or ethnic supposition, but you can better control how much that influences your interaction. For gender, you're still screwed by hearing a feminine or masculine voice into having certain predisposed rules or expectations come into play. This hurts conversations with a person who's voice sounds to the other gender, which hurts communication, but hopefully we move further from the gender sound of a voice mattering.
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nuttynutskin said:
I can't believe there's parents out there that encourage their children to question their identity. Being supportive is one thing but this shit's on another level. Just because your 8 year old son plays with dolls doesn't really mean anything imo.
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God forbid children think for themselves.
 
That wall'o'text essentially boils down to a physical observable difference to that feeds perceptions and expectations about another person has been significantly altered, and not in a way that anyone can adjust to, at least not easily. Being short-tall, black-white-green, fast-slow, fat-thin, etc are all still consistent observable realities that leads you to have expectations of the other person and how you interact with them.

It used to be boy-girl was the same way. Over time, the norms that guided such physical observable differences for boy-girl has eroded. Women stopped wearing dresses, wore pants and shirts, got short haircuts, and tom-boys became more acceptable. Some males put on dresses, make-up, etc but that didn't get so widely accepted. It has niches, but not mainstream acceptable like women wearing less feminine clothing, and in fact the males aligned a bit more by wearing metro-sexual attire. It blurred the line, but in most cases you could tell by a voice and other signs who you were dealing with - even if you weren't quite sure the same cultural roles and expectations would be mutual.

Now, those visual cues are being obliterated for a small portion of the population. You can't count on voice, mannerisms, or anything really, to tell you if you are interacting with a he or a she and what to expect. When it comes down to how a person feels about themselves, we have taken a LOT of our cultural and social expectations and thrown them out the window - you have to ask, carefully and respectfully, to know how to act. It is quite unsettling.



The further I thought about my earlier post, the more I felt the need to describe some other aspect, and all that came to mind is religion and politics. These you can't actually tell by visual cues, voice, or anything. Really, until you start having a conversation, you won't know how this person feels and how to interact with them. It's the closest parallel I can imagine to the sex-gender situation. You simply don't know, and you have to ask carefully, and respectfully, to know how to interact. However, with religion and politics there is a long standing tradition of NOT speaking on those topics knowing people can get violently attached to their feelings (about themselves, or on their expectations of others).

It appears sex-gender is being pulled out of social standards, and put in those sensitive areas for social interaction. Maybe that's good. I pointed to a phone call as the ideal interaction because other than accent or tone, you really have to listen and hear who the other person is - you can't tell race, size, religion, or politics unless you carefully wade into areas and listen for cues. And, if you don't go to those areas in order to shape your image of the other person, you are in a pretty good spot to assess someone (trustworthy, kind, devious, etc) without those visual cues and the bias they bring with their expectations. You may still hear a male-female voice, but this is getting closer to knowing and understanding someone regardless of sex-gender - know the person, not your expectations.

Maybe this is good, just as the 60's brought us desegregation and started breaking down the 'norms' or societal expectations based on color. Maybe we start breaking down our expectations of one another based on sex-gender. But this kind of change is hard. Very hard, for many to have what they consider an 'accepted standard' or cultural role or societal expectation, and have it thrown out the window without a gradual acceptance of a new norm...or promise of any replacement on the horizon.
 
w01fg4ng said:
How triggered do you guys get in the doctors office when they ask you your preferred pronoun?

Serious question.
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Doesn't bother me.

w01fg4ng said:
God forbid children think for themselves.
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I am 100% for children thinking for themselves, and for parents supporting what their children conclude. However I don't know if it's a good thing to tell your child, unprompted, that their gender is undecided. That seems like it could be very confusing for a child. If a child has a gender that is different than their biological sex, you can bet that, in an open household where things are discussed and nothing is suppressed, that child will come out with that information and want to talk about it. At that point, if I had a child that was questioning, I would talk to them about it openly and honestly and keep an open line of communication, and let them know that however they are is wonderful and perfectly okay. But I'm not going to be like "okay so-and-so, you're 3, it's time to let you know that you might be a boy or you might be a girl, who knows? Only you", totally unprompted. I just think it's the sort of thing you should arrive at on your own. I mean when you're really young you might for fun decide you want to be a girl. I used to want to be a girl sometimes, but just because I wondered what it was like because I only understood being a boy. I didn't really want to be a girl. If a child is raised in an environment that is hyper-focused on gender identity, a simple exploratory statement could be taken as a firm assertion and this could lead to altered behavior of the parents which influences the child. I can see it actually creating more confusion than if you just let it unfold naturally.

To your point in your quote, I think my way is better allowing children to think for themselves by not seeding them with an idea. I get the good intentions behind your sentiment and if I had to choose between being hyper-focused on gender identity and being rigidly bigoted, I would certainly choose hyper-focused. But I think the best way is to just be an accepting and aware parent/adult, who guides their child when it is needed and lets them develop naturally. It's not like in this day and age, someone who is seriously questioning their gender isn't going to understand that's a thing and bring it up when they feel ready.
 
Shadowmeister said:
I think my way is better allowing children to think for themselves by not seeding them with an idea.
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And where will they get the concepts with which to define themselves? I totally get your point (I think) and agree with not 'seeding' an idea, or encouraging a direction without letting things develop naturally. However, to even know a decision can be made, a kid has to know what the options are, and what those options mean. If they don't learn it from the parents, who should be the most trusted voice in such an exploration; then it will come from schools and/or peers who may in fact push a direction or unwittingly influence a child in a wrong direction. Kids still need to learn of the world, and develop their own sense of who they are in that world, but right now some of the definitions are being erased, or significantly blurred, to a point where clear self-assessment and self-definition may be a lot more confusing than ever.
 
I agree with a large amount of your post, shadow. I think where we may disagree is on the level of difficulty that is required to properly be prepared for a trans or intersex child.

Shadowmeister said:
in an open household where things are discussed and nothing is suppressed,
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This is where a lot of it falls apart. It's almost impossible to not assume your child's gender at some point. Admitting the difficulty in addressing their needs will get you closer to actually addressing their needs.


I don't understand why it's so popular to make this about some hypothetical situation that includes a deranged parent bent on fucking with a child's mind. This isn't devil worship. Fuck.
 
Well I mean, if my child was born a biological boy, I would refer to him as a he and as a boy until/unless it became clear something else was a possibility my child was considering. I think to do so is to prepare them for the fact that pretty much everyone will use the pronoun he/him to address him. People will call him a boy because he looks like a boy. So in a sense I mean, I guess I would assume biological sex as gender, but I would make sure to not impart the idea that it was necessary for him to feel that way, and if my son talked to me and said they really felt like they were a girl in a boy's body, I would revise that. The vast, vast majority of people will always identify with their biological sex as their gender, I think. I guess when I think of this idea of not assuming your child's gender, it brings to mind using they/them or some new pronoun to refer to them until such a time that they assert to you that they are one or another. I think that would be confusing and impractical and just not necessary.

This is good to think about, though. I think the most important thing is to be an attentive and engaged parent who has an open line of communication with their child, so that the child feels comfortable bringing this sort of thing up. And to be aware of the outside influences from school and so on, and be proactive about it and ensure the greatest education is coming from home. And, of course to be open-minded and accepting of whatever your child is exploring, so they feel they have a loving ally at home, to give them the best chance of being able to grow up comfortable with who they are.

And yes I'm sure I have no idea of the level of difficulty that would occur to parent a child through a realization that they are trans or intersex. It just seems that laying the expectation that they might be, before they've started thinking about it on their own, would be confusing and could accidentally even make them feel like it's something they can decide (and little kids might "decide" to be for a while just because the idea was presented to them, kids are all about role playing and pretending and exploring, but - and I admit I could be off base here since I've always firmly felt comfortable with my male-ness - it seems like a kid who truly has always felt the opposite gender than their sex would make it known to you that they felt that way, and then you could go from there, rather than assuming that any kid very well might be, when the incidence of it is quite low. It's hard for me to imagine that an innocent little kid with loving parents would feel hurt or controlled by a parent who refers to them by their biological sex before they had ever said anything to the contrary.

By the way, one thing I am not clear on is the difference between trans, and intersex, but I'd like to be informed. Could someone explain that for me please?
 
Good post, Shadow.

Shadowmeister said:
It just seems that laying the expectation that they might be,
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It's not so much telling them. It's allowing them.

By the way, one thing I am not clear on is the difference between trans, and intersex, but I'd like to be informed. Could someone explain that for me please?
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I'm honestly not the best informed, but intersex is defined at birth and trans is later determined. Wish I could provide more info.
 
Okay I googled and came up with this: https://interactadvocates.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/LavLaw-Trans-and-Intersex-Fact-Sheet.pdf

The two terms are often confused: while a person who is transgender has a gender that is different from the one traditionally associated with the sex they were assigned at birth, a person who is intersex was born with a variation in their sexual or reproductive anatomy such that their body does not fit typical definitions of male or female.

• Both intersex and transgender people can identify as men, women, gender-fluid, non-binary, or in a multitude of different ways.
• While transgender people may identify differently from how they were assigned, their biology at birth typically conforms to a binary understanding of sexual and reproductive anatomy.
• Intersex people are generally assigned male or female despite their anatomical atypicality, but may later identify differently and correspondingly identify as transgender.
• A person cannot transition to “become” intersex because having an intersex condition is defined as a variation in reproductive anatomy present at birth.

This document uses “intersex” to mean those who are at risk for non-consensual surgery in infancy on the basis of medically observable intersex traits (sometimes called Differences of Sex Development).
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So looks like intersex is when your biological sex does not fit into strictly male or female (hermaphrodites, I suppose, but I'm not sure). In other word, trans is a personality phenomenon and intersex is a physical one.
 
I never said anything about not allowing children anything, but just because little Bobby tried on his sister's dress doesn't mean he needs to be referred to something different that son or boy. My thoughts on this are pretty much what Shadow has said. Let your children develop on their own and in the meantime you aren't traumatizing them or anything by referring to them by their assigned sex at birth.
 
I don't understand why it's so popular to make this about some hypothetical situation that includes a deranged parent bent on fucking with a child's mind. This isn't devil worship. Fuck.

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From the same state that just banned all abortions, cause you know, pro-life!


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