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  • Current Events & Politics Moderators: deficiT | tryptakid | Foreigner

Social Justice Transgender and gender identity discussion

Wow, once again, as always, this topic has triggered some people. I'm always kind of amazed at how much it does. I guess it's a really threatening topic, that has to be discussed with machetes. Someone made an interesting post as to why that is recently, I can't remember who but I think it was TLB.
 
JessFR said:
You're right, it is complicated. But you're claiming differences without evidence. Now in fairness, so am I. Ive presented no evidence either. Just my own understanding.

The question at the end of the day is, do transgender individuals who've spent years subject to the hormones of their identified gender, still experience the benefits and detrements of their assigned sex at birth.

I tend to doubt it. But neither of us has presented proof. I for one would like to see some if some were available.

Without that, we just have our assessments based on our understanding of the situation.

My understanding is that hormonal chemistry makes up the bulk of the physical athletic differences. And that anything else falls well within the margin of normal varience, and be no different than say, the advantage a tall person might have over a short one.

Ultimately I'm on the side of the evidence. We can both have our own assessments of what seems to make sense. But we are both just making assumptions.

I don't care enough to find evidence, I really don't care about sports, and while I'm supportive of lgbtiq stuff, I admit it's not something that appeals to me as a cause beyond the sheer principle of the matter. In that I don't approve of discrimination in any form.

But hey, if anyone here has a study that shows something different to my assumptions, I'd be curious to see it.
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I don't care to present evidence either, I'm just casually talking. I've read so much scientific crap on this subject over the years that I'm averse to reading any more. The fact is, we don't have concrete answers on any of this stuff. Some scientists say one thing, others say another thing. There is also leftist bias in the social sciences now that skew the information (plus "social science" is an oxymoron).

The part in bold... they don't have to be aware of the benefits to benefit. That's how privilege works. If someone is essentially a woman trapped in a male body, they will still present as male and society will grant them male privileges. That they don't want to be male is irrelevant to the privileges they get for appearing male. That's how social perception works. The whole argument surrounding women's shelters is that the trans women who are trying to force their way in have had a different lived experience and they can't automatically be counted as "just one of the girls", especially if they are still male-presenting. Part of being male presenting is that some have male entitlement enculturated into them according to how society treated them, regardless if they actually identified as female. Yes, there is an unfair bias there... it suggests that trans women who present as women should be more privileged in women's safe spaces because they are "passable".... but is that really anyone's fault? It's social perception, a very deeply ingrained one. Humanity is not going to change its entire socioperceptual fabric because a very small minority are offended because people won't use the proper pronouns or let them into safe spaces traditionally reserved for certain sexes.

But what this comes down to is social realities. Trans ideology is trying to tell the world that gender is all in our heads and we can be whatever we declare ourselves to be; and that physical sex has no bearing on gender disposition. However, we see research coming out of societies like Sweden that have the highest gender equality indices in the world, and what we're finding is that when given absolute freedom and equal opportunity, men and women still perform in many areas along sex-based lines. For example, women tend to end up in caring professions and men in STEM fields. In all the psychology tests, such as in the "Big 5" test, on the far end of the agreeability spectrum, you find only women; on the far end of the disagreeability spectrum, you only find men. This is why men end up in violent situations more than women. There's a lot of other data like this pointing to sex based differences.

I've also read some interesting, controversial things which contradict trans ideology, such as:
1) Many children who identify as trans grow out if it in adulthood and end up identifying with their birth sex.
2) There is a subset of male to female trans that has a sexual fetish for becoming women. This fetish is not found in female to male trans.
3) Some trans people have gender dysphoria and, once treated, they acclimatize to their birth sex. Some don't, and then further therapy is required, including gender reassignment surgery.
4) Some trans people regret transitioning and now detransitioning is a growing topic. A trans activist recently wrote an article in the Seattle Times about this very subject. She ended up getting fired and her own community ran her out of town.
5) Queer identity politics are in vogue in many left leaning urban areas, such that people are arbitrarily calling themselves queer. For example, some women like wearing pants and male clothing rather than dresses; rather than simply saying they are women who don't like wearing dresses, they are calling themselves "queer". Similarly, children who cross-dress innocently are now being asked if maybe they aren't the right gender.

We need to have real conversations and dialogue about these things. I don't like how trans ideology and radical leftism is being forced on college campuses as a way to control ideas and speech at the expense of proper intellectualization and critical thinking. I don't want trans ideology taught in primary school. Children don't need to be taught that their gender might not match their sex, so they should think about it. Boys who like wearing dresses or playing with dolls don't to be told that they might really be girls when really they are just kids being kids.

Somewhere in this milieu we have real trans people with real needs that need to be acknowledged with integrity. Unfortunately, those core issues are surrounded by leftist ideologues who by the way are mostly white, female academic bourgeoisie.
 
JessFR said:
the majority of the strength differences betweenness end and women are hormonal. Which isn't something fixed at birth in an absolute way, unalterable way. That's why athletes cheat by taking steroids..
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I agree. Even crazier is the fact that these cheaters are way more common and most people don't put nearly as much thought into it.

People really do go nuts over trans people in sports but continue to watch guys and gals loaded on drugs cheat their way to the top. It's like they never really cared to begin with, so why do they portray an image of concern when it comes to trans people?
 
Foreigner said:
It's unfair for biological men to compete against biological women. They will almost universally have an advantage. It doesn't matter what people's psychological gender is, their sex will determine how they present to the world and the advantages/disadvantages they have. Nothing will change that biological men have bigger lungs and hearts, stronger bones, and more dense musculature than women, even at the olympic level.

I support trans people but this kind of activism is delusional. We are having a huge fight over this in Canada right now. The Vancouver Rape Relief centre, the only one of its kind left in western Canada, just got defunded because they won't allow biological men into this safe space because it terrifies female rape survivors. They were accused of being anti-trans when really they don't want people who present as male coming in and triggering their rape survivors.

Trans women who have lived as male for their entire lives sometimes still embody the aggression and misogyny that self-identified men aim at women, as they crusade to gain entitled access to women's safe spaces. I believe female sports should be considered a women's only safe space. Ironically, the decades of feminism that gained women these safe spaces are being eroded by males who identify as women, as well as by radical leftists who are ideologically divorced from reality. These men are forcing their way in through power politics where they don't belong, and refusing to engage in dialogue about the real concerns that women are having.

But it's hard to have these conversations because radical leftists will call you a TERF, which is a slur meant to ideologically reframe the conversation away from facing some very real, practical realities.

If someone is intersex and AMAB or AFAB, then that deserves special consideration as each issue arises. But intersex people are a very, very small minority in the population, as are trans people. We shouldn't be making sweeping rules at the cost of gender norms that the rest of society is frankly OK with. We should give trans people dignity, rights and special consideration as the need arises. We don't need to call the gender identity of the entire world into question when it's not necessary.
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I agree, and think this post is very well thought out. There is definitely a difference intersex and trans, and the issue as a whole is fairly complex. I see a lot of people making unfair arguments by grouping the two as one, and assuming that someone experiencing what the DSM5 would term gender dysphoria is equal to someone born intersex, and although one could experience both, it isn't fair to argue that the two are the same.

Shadowmeister said:
Wow, once again, as always, this topic has triggered some people. I'm always kind of amazed at how much it does. I guess it's a really threatening topic, that has to be discussed with machetes. Someone made an interesting post as to why that is recently, I can't remember who but I think it was TLB.
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I forget the name, but there is a term that causes many to assume expertise because of experiencing it. i.e. sexuality. Not sure if that was the case, but it seems to be part of it imo, and not just on BL.

I see a lot of people making unfair arguments as well. Two common ones that cause a lot of division is 1) the whole pronoun argument that ends in gender vs sex argument, and 2) the grouping of intersex with trans. On the first reason- it seems unfair to me to even bring up gender when the colloquial use of pronouns like he and she are used to refer to a person's sex, not gender. We do not use the pronouns he or she to refer to a persons gender, which I will agree isn't rigid, unless in a comical or pejorative way. The second argument that causes a ton of confusion is the equation of intersex and trans, as @Foreigner much more better explained.

This last comment will likely leave me unfavorable in many eyes, but it is my belief that the argument against gender dysphoria as a disorder, and that many trans people have this disorder rather than some extremely rare genetic occurrence, despite arguing against it. The arguments against the disorder as a whole seems similar to an alcoholic arguing against the alcoholism. I'm all for respecting an individual and mutual respect, but there comes a line when a person is expecting you to go along with what may likely be delusion. As a friend, surely the limits are much more liberal, but as a stranger, strict limitations may be the wise decision. Following the logic that gender dysphoria is a disorder, then there is certainly behavior that would be considering enabling or detrimental even, despite noble intentions. Similar to supporting an alcoholic in his lowest, siding with him in his fight with his wife despite him obviously being in the wrong.
 
To be clear I think calm discussion about the topic is a good thing. I agree with some of the points Foreigner made, and gender identity politics is certainly in vogue now, and there are some issues this causes. What I don't get though is the response on the right that often happens where people try to use it as an argument for the left being crazy, or the world descending into chaos, or things like that. I've seen phrases such as "well we have 586 gender now, so..." attempted as an argument for or against a variety of things that, to me, have nothing to do with the issue. It seems to really threaten a lot of people, especially people interested in maintaining the dominance of the white male in society. In fact, people feeling that they are the wrong gender has always been a thing, it's just that it's the first time in our society where it's able to be discussed. So naturally, people are going overboard, and yeah it's kind of a fad right now among some, which is unfortunate. But this overexposure/fadness is part of the growing process, IMO. Even though there are some issues caused by the current state of it in society, I think it is more than offset by the good it does people who truly are suffering and otherwise would never have been able to be accepted, perhaps even by themselves.
 
The radical right is also a problem right now. I believe the growing appearance of the radical left and the radical right in the western world is not a coincidence. Politics and ideology are getting more extreme, and it overshadows the real human struggles that earnest activists are trying to address. I get accused of being a transphobic, right wing extremist all the time, when really I'm a centrist. When you deal with radicals, anything to the left or to the right of them is going to look extreme to them because their reactions to everything are extreme and disproportionate.

I'm not a feminist. I believe in gender equality and all those different "equalities", but not through feminism. And yet, I get called a TERF all the time, which is laughable because second wave feminists are super critical of modern radical leftists. Famous feminists like Camille Paglia and Christina Hoff Somers are now targets of leftist hate for simply calling out how irrational modern leftism and third wave feminism are. The faux post-modernists use appeals to authority and the state to enforce "safe space", which is contrary to the very nature of first and second wave feminists who demanded freedom to risk harm in order to live their lives autonomously. In the year 2019, you practically can't be a feminist at all unless you drink the koolaid of gender deconstructionism, a philosophy I am 100% against. So even on the left, they are fighting each other from within and without, all over ideology that is not rooted in reality. When you argue with the average leftist, they change the meaning of words as you are talking to them and refuse to define anything, so there is no way to really frame the conversation. Then they blast you for being phobic.

Another thing nobody wants to talk about is how gender reassignment does not reduce the trans suicide rate one iota. It remains relatively static. It may be that in some cases, gender reassignment does not cure gender dysphoria. It may also be that trans resides on a spectrum, and isn't an either/or proposition. Like sometimes it's actual gender dysphoria, and other times it's something else.

I wouldn't have a problem with all this if we weren't pushing laws that create new speech rules like forcing public institutions and employers to use a person's preferred gender pronoun, of which there are hundreds now; or teaching children that their gender isn't a fixed thing, or giving children hormone blocking treatments that are permanently life altering, before they are at an age to fully understand what it means; or desegregating women's safe spaces (like rape relief) because males want to access to female spaces, etc. Trans is real, but this vogue thing of people using unheard of gender pronouns is not something I will cater to.

I'm really tired of the white noise and the failure of communication.
 
Is the whole gender neutrual thing really as.. to think of a better word, lively or is it just another hyped up stuff for us to moan

I heard someone say on radio when prince harry said his newborn was a boy or girl cant remember which one anyway, she said that shouldn't harry have said it was a 'gender neutrual' baby or something and not what he said so I was just thinking how far is this gender apocalypse no one around my way knows what the word means let alone categorise their own child as gender neutral so lets get to the bottom of this shit guys
 
Pete556 said:
Is the whole gender neutrual thing really as.. to think of a better word, lively or is it just another hyped up stuff for us to moan

I heard someone say on radio when prince harry said his newborn was a boy or girl cant remember which one anyway, she said that shouldn't harry have said it was a 'gender neutrual' baby or something and not what he said so I was just thinking how far is this gender apocalypse no one around my way knows what the word means let alone categorise their own child as gender neutral so lets get to the bottom of this shit guys
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If I'm honest, this is another reason I generally stay away from transgender related discussions. Cause while I do think that people should be allowed to identify however they like, and that it's really not harming anyone and we should respect how people feel about themselves.

I can't deny that I think a lot of the shit the more extreme individuals come up with is just nonsense, and I'm not gonna play ball on it.

I'm happy to use male or female pronouns out of respect to someone, I think it's kinda dickish not too. I try to have a pretty live and let live attitude about it all.

But im not gonna start using entirely made up pronouns, and I'm not OK with trying to insist people not identify their children by their sex until they decide for themselves.

There's an extent to which the world should not have to bend and be inconvenienced for a small minority.

That doesn't mean I'm OK with people being dicks about it. Or with deliberately trying to hurt people they disagree with.

I just wish people could try and be more moderate. You don't always have to pick a side and take it to its extreme.
 
Live and let live, people!!! I don't care what your privates are, if you can play good, you should play!
 
Pete556 said:
Is the whole gender neutrual thing really as.. to think of a better word, lively or is it just another hyped up stuff for us to moan

I heard someone say on radio when prince harry said his newborn was a boy or girl cant remember which one anyway, she said that shouldn't harry have said it was a 'gender neutrual' baby or something and not what he said so I was just thinking how far is this gender apocalypse no one around my way knows what the word means let alone categorise their own child as gender neutral so lets get to the bottom of this shit guys
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Oh god that's so absurd. It's shit like this that makes me cringe and that sets the whole thing back. It's okay to refer to a baby as its anatomical gender for fuck's sake! o_O I mean honestly telling a kid from birth that you don't know their gender sounds really confusing for the kid.
 
All babies are gender neutral, I think the word you are looking for is "sex."

Assuming a baby's gender is as silly as assuming their sexuality. I mean let's be real, we all want to have gaybies but if you assume your newborn is gay people will look at you funny.
 
w01fg4ng said:
All babies are gender neutral, I think the word you are looking for is "sex."

Assuming a baby's gender is as silly as assuming their sexuality. I mean let's be real, we all want to have gaybies but if you assume your newborn is gay people will look at you funny.
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Frankly. That's another one I'm not on board with. I mean I'll use the two with distinct meanings sometimes just to avoid this exact argument, or when the difference is actually pretty important and it will help avoid ambiguity.

But otherwise, most of the time, no. I'm gonna keep using the words the way the vast majority of people seem to use them. And that's the end of it. And the majority seem to consider them largely interchangeable. And if that makes me technically wrong according to some arbitrarally chosen dictionary. I don't care.

Annoyingly for the longest time there was a significant number of, mostly older people, who seem to insist that only one should be used exclusively. Like some kids being told at school that the words boy and girl represent someone's sex. And other kids being told the exact reverse.

I'm not changing my whole language in such an arbitrary way just to benefit a very small number of people. A benefit that to me seems largely political anyway.

I class it as a the less extreme version of the made up gender neutral pronoun request.
 
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Not having to worry about what to say is one of the big reasons I'm not gonna follow this sex vs gender shit.

Anyhow. You can make that point about literally anything and it's not really any more or less meaningful.

If you wanna use the words that way that's totally cool by me. Just so long as I don't have too.
 
Just to be the slow one in class...

Am I correct in hearing people using the terms in this way:
Sex - the physical bits you have
Gender - the way you 'feel' or mentally-emotionally identify

Is this the difference people are trying to use at times? Or do I have them reversed, since folks refer to being trans-gender by undergoing treatment, but nobody really talks about trans-sex. So, I'm still seeking some clarity.
 
TheLoveBandit said:
Just to be the slow one in class...

Am I correct in hearing people using the terms in this way:
Sex - the physical bits you have
Gender - the way you 'feel' or mentally-emotionally identify

Is this the difference people are trying to use at times? Or do I have them reversed, since folks refer to being trans-gender by undergoing treatment, but nobody really talks about trans-sex. So, I'm still seeking some clarity.
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No you have them the right way around. And yes that's what's being argued.

As for where the word transgender fits in and why it's that as opposed to something else. It's probably best not to worry too much about what's logical where etymology is concerned.
 
You've made it clear that you'd rather not discuss transgender and gender identity topics, but you don't have to post off topic.
 
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