Social Justice Transgender and gender identity discussion

[Draven26]

If you'd like to see the intersection of sexism, racism, and a guest appearance by transphobia (bc this doesn't even have a trans person in it), look no farther than the case of Caster Semenya.
Semenya is a Gold Medal Olympian whose naturally occurring testosterone is higher than the International Association of Athletics Federations allows. Rather than, say, "you were created in a way that is perfect and beautiful and were blessed with chemicals that may or may not improve your athletic ability", they said "take these pills bc we must bring you, a black woman, down".
This is racist because can we please stop having a governing body led by white men criticize black people's bodies?
This is sexist because can we please stop trying to police women's bodies?
This is transphobic because not only is the idea that any sort deviation from some "standard set" of female qualities implies that you are less than a woman. It is also transphobic because Semenya was forced to under go a sex verification test in 2015.

^^ So that was her post right?

And my response was this .. “Isn't Caster Semenya a man though? Or was a man? Caster Semenya is trans right? And if that is the case let's be honest.. they are not being sexist or racist. But men naturally have higher testosterone than women and this is why when you introduce trans people and gay people.. problems occur. But of course we have to try to accommodate to everyone. And I know people will hate me for saying this but I have no hate but come on now. This is a man competing against women.. the fact that he's a man and he's black means he is going to smoke their ass and come out victorious every time.. so they should accept it knowing fully what's going on.. lol people always stirring up shit just to get some drama going on in their lives”


Then she says “the only thing I have to say to your ignorant statement is intersex is not trans”


And another person responds “I'm pretty sure I know exactly what you meant by the "and he's black" but but let's get it in your own words”

What would you guys have said if you were me because I wasn't trying to offend anyone honestly! Could someone help me understand what I did that was wrong and how I would be able to word it next time so I don't offend anyone? Thank you! Just need some opinions on this and how you would respond that way I don't make the same mistake if I made any mistakes that is.

 

[tathra]

“Isn't Caster Semenya a man though? Or was a man? Caster Semenya is trans right? And if that is the case let's be honest.. they are not being sexist or racist.

I don't know anything about this person, but what I can gather from google is that she's intersex, not trans, and she was assigned female at birth

and yes ma'am, willfully misgendering someone is transphobic as well as simply being something only a total fucking asshole would do. if she wants to be addressed with "she" then address her as "she", alright miss?

What would you guys have said if you were me because I wasn't trying to offend anyone honestly! Could someone help me understand what I did that was wrong and how I would be able to word it next time so I don't offend anyone? Thank you! Just need some opinions on this and how you would respond that way I don't make the same mistake if I made any mistakes that is.

it's obvious af to me that you're concern trolling here. you wanna know how not to offend people? don't be an asshole, and dont lie and pretend to be innocent when you know that you're purposely trying to offend people but are a coward who insists on hiding behind plausible deniability. being honest and acting in good faith is all it takes

 

[cduggles]

Did you originally post this in CEPS (formerly CE&P)?

I can't find you posting in the one thread I found in S&G about Caster Semenya, but maybe the thread was unapproved or something. Who knows?

As to where you went wrong...

the fact that he's a man and he's black means he is going to smoke their ass and come out victorious every time..

First of all, Caster Semenya was deemed eligible to compete as a woman in competition after an examination by the IAAF to determine her sex.

A little background: leaked information from that sex determination examination indicates that Caster Semenya might be intersex.

Please look up the word "intersex". Then look up "transsexual " and "transgender". They are all very different things.

And then you really went into a ditch with "the fact that...he's black means he's going to smoke their ass..."

This part smacks of racism and isn't logical.

It's illogical because Caster Semenya's competitors might also be black.

Additionally, being a black athlete doesn't mean you win in sports all the time. Again it's illogical has racist overtones.

Finally, Caster Semenya not only identifies as a woman, but was determined to be able to compete as a woman. The use of "he" is therefore inappropriate. Very inappropriate.

And just to mention, there's this phrase: "this is why when you introduce trans people and gay people.."

Caster Semenya, again, is not trans. She's intersex.

And what on earth does being "gay" have anything to do with athletic performance or testosterone levels?

So, in this way, you're incorrectly dragging "trans" individuals into this, and then you add "gay people" for some reason.

Next time you post something like this, try to do some background research. Then make sure you understand how terms you use apply are relevant (or not relevant) to people.

I think that would help a lot.

Next time, you might want to get feedback for an inquiry like this one in Site Technical Help, or send a mod a private message for feedback.

 

[ChemicallyEnhanced]

If you'd like to see the intersection of sexism, racism, and a guest appearance by transphobia (bc this doesn't even have a trans person in it), look no farther than the case of Caster Semenya.
Semenya is a Gold Medal Olympian whose naturally occurring testosterone is higher than the International Association of Athletics Federations allows. Rather than, say, "you were created in a way that is perfect and beautiful and were blessed with chemicals that may or may not improve your athletic ability", they said "take these pills bc we must bring you, a black woman, down".
This is racist because can we please stop having a governing body led by white men criticize black people's bodies?
This is sexist because can we please stop trying to police women's bodies?
This is transphobic because not only is the idea that any sort deviation from some "standard set" of female qualities implies that you are less than a woman. It is also transphobic because Semenya was forced to under go a sex verification test in 2015.

^^ So that was her post right?

And my response was this .. “Isn't Caster Semenya a man though? Or was a man? Caster Semenya is trans right? And if that is the case let's be honest.. they are not being sexist or racist. But men naturally have higher testosterone than women and this is why when you introduce trans people and gay people.. problems occur. But of course we have to try to accommodate to everyone. And I know people will hate me for saying this but I have no hate but come on now. This is a man competing against women.. the fact that he's a man and he's black means he is going to smoke their ass and come out victorious every time.. so they should accept it knowing fully what's going on.. lol people always stirring up shit just to get some drama going on in their lives”


Then she says “the only thing I have to say to your ignorant statement is intersex is not trans”


And another person responds “I'm pretty sure I know exactly what you meant by the "and he's black" but but let's get it in your own words”

What would you guys have said if you were me because I wasn't trying to offend anyone honestly! Could someone help me understand what I did that was wrong and how I would be able to word it next time so I don't offend anyone? Thank you! Just need some opinions on this and how you would respond that way I don't make the same mistake if I made any mistakes that is.

By referring to her as "a man competing against women" you are purposefully misgendering her which comes across as transphobic. Even if she is intersex, she identifies as female and therefor should be treated as such.
In regards to whether it's "fair" for her to compete against cis-women who are, yes, somewhat at a disadvantage to her I feel it's a very complicated issue. Both your view and Dravens view on the subject are both equally valid. Should she be forced to take hormones so she fit's in societies view as "normal"? Absolutely not. At the same time, she does have an unfair advantage.
Suggesting that being homosexual has ANY influence on athletic ability is a joke.
You also come across as racist because her ethnicity is irrelevant to the whole thing.

 

[JessFR]

While she shouldn't have to take hormones to fit societies view of normal. I can understand being required to take hormones in order to not have an unfair advantage.

That said though, while I can understand such a requirement. I still kinda think it's silly. I mean. Athletic sports are already about competing over physical ability. And not everyone is equally physically capable.

Some people are more naturally gifted in some athletic activities than others. It's inherently unfair.

Sports competitions try and set all these rules to make it fair, but what's being attempted is already inherently unfair.

Which is why I generally avoid these kinds of discussions all together. I don't care about sports anyway. And I think these rules are pretty arbitrary to begin with.

But, for discussions sake. It is true that men are generally stronger than women. And the reason for that has a lot to do with hormonal differences.

If a female athlete for some reason has unusually high levels of testosterone, she's going to have an advantage over women who don't.

But again, I don't really care about sports. I don't care if she's allowed to compete or not. I'm just saying that it is an unfair advantage. But that I think athletic competition is already a lot to do with inherent ability as much as effort and training. So I think it's all kinda stupid anyway since it's trying to impose fairness on an activity that is by its nature unfair.

 

[TheLoveBandit]

Perhaps somewhat related

Judge Tells Richard Simmons That Being Called Transgender Is Not Defamation

...
Judge Keosian said that for Simmons to win a defamation case he would need to prove an injury to one’s reputation, not just emotional distress.

“[A]lthough it is true that Simmons would not need to introduce any evidence of reputational damage to proceed in a defamation cause of action seeking only the emotional damages caused by the allegedly defamatory statement, Simmons must be able to show, as a threshold matter, that the allegedly defamatory statement on its face was the type of statement that would ‘naturally tend’ to injure one’s reputation,” Keosian wrote.

Keosian added that “immutable characteristics” such as being transgender may be disliked by some populations but that identifying those traits was not defamation. He said that the courts would “not validate those prejudices by legally recognizing them.”
“This court finds that because courts have long held that a misidentification of certain immutable characteristics do not naturally tend to injure one’s reputation, even if there is a sizeable portion of the population who hold prejudices against those characteristics, misidentification of a person as transgender is not actionable defamation absent special damages,” wrote Keosian.
...

 

[w01fg4ng]

I have no hate

In the practice of tolerance, one's enemy is the best teacher.
-DL

What would you guys have said if you were me

You should worry less about what to say and worry more about how to listen.

 

[tathra]

we're expanding this thread to be a more general discussion on transgender and gender identity, since we don't already have one, instead of just having it for people to keep dragging the OP. updated the thread title to reflect this

 

[Foreigner]

It's unfair for biological men to compete against biological women. They will almost universally have an advantage. It doesn't matter what people's psychological gender is, their sex will determine how they present to the world and the advantages/disadvantages they have. Nothing will change that biological men have bigger lungs and hearts, stronger bones, and more dense musculature than women, even at the olympic level.

I support trans people but this kind of activism is delusional. We are having a huge fight over this in Canada right now. The Vancouver Rape Relief centre, the only one of its kind left in western Canada, just got defunded because they won't allow biological men into this safe space because it terrifies female rape survivors. They were accused of being anti-trans when really they don't want people who present as male coming in and triggering their rape survivors.

Trans women who have lived as male for their entire lives sometimes still embody the aggression and misogyny that self-identified men aim at women, as they crusade to gain entitled access to women's safe spaces. I believe female sports should be considered a women's only safe space. Ironically, the decades of feminism that gained women these safe spaces are being eroded by males who identify as women, as well as by radical leftists who are ideologically divorced from reality. These men are forcing their way in through power politics where they don't belong, and refusing to engage in dialogue about the real concerns that women are having.

But it's hard to have these conversations because radical leftists will call you a TERF, which is a slur meant to ideologically reframe the conversation away from facing some very real, practical realities.

If someone is intersex and AMAB or AFAB, then that deserves special consideration as each issue arises. But intersex people are a very, very small minority in the population, as are trans people. We shouldn't be making sweeping rules at the cost of gender norms that the rest of society is frankly OK with. We should give trans people dignity, rights and special consideration as the need arises. We don't need to call the gender identity of the entire world into question when it's not necessary.

 

[ChemicallyEnhanced]

Interesting study has shown that [men and women have physically different brains] transgender people actually have the physical brain of the gender the identify as. From example a trans woman will often have a physically female brain.
This is also true, to a lesser extent, for homosexuals.
I can post a link if anyone is interested?

 

[G_Chem]

^^^This is complete bullshit but I’d love to see the link, from what I’ve just read there’s studies which refute this half brained theory as well.

-GC

 

[nuttynutskin]

It's unfair for biological men to compete against biological women. They will almost universally have an advantage. It doesn't matter what people's psychological gender is, their sex will determine how they present to the world and the advantages/disadvantages they have. Nothing will change that biological men have bigger lungs and hearts, stronger bones, and more dense musculature than women, even at the olympic level.

I support trans people but this kind of activism is delusional. We are having a huge fight over this in Canada right now. The Vancouver Rape Relief centre, the only one of its kind left in western Canada, just got defunded because they won't allow biological men into this safe space because it terrifies female rape survivors. They were accused of being anti-trans when really they don't want people who present as male coming in and triggering their rape survivors.

Trans women who have lived as male for their entire lives sometimes still embody the aggression and misogyny that self-identified men aim at women, as they crusade to gain entitled access to women's safe spaces. I believe female sports should be considered a women's only safe space. Ironically, the decades of feminism that gained women these safe spaces are being eroded by males who identify as women, as well as by radical leftists who are ideologically divorced from reality. These men are forcing their way in through power politics where they don't belong, and refusing to engage in dialogue about the real concerns that women are having.

But it's hard to have these conversations because radical leftists will call you a TERF, which is a slur meant to ideologically reframe the conversation away from facing some very real, practical realities.

If someone is intersex and AMAB or AFAB, then that deserves special consideration as each issue arises. But intersex people are a very, very small minority in the population, as are trans people. We shouldn't be making sweeping rules at the cost of gender norms that the rest of society is frankly OK with. We should give trans people dignity, rights and special consideration as the need arises. We don't need to call the gender identity of the entire world into question when it's not necessary.

Seriously tho, great post imo at least. Couldn't have said it better.

 

[tathra]

We shouldn't be making sweeping rules at the cost of gender norms that the rest of society is frankly OK with

fuck your gender norms. "it should stay that way because it is that way/has always been that way" is a logical fallacy, an appeal to tradition, its not a valid reason for anything

 

[Ganjcat]

You know your dealing with radical left when they throw empty slogans and catch phases and somehow stick them all together to form a sentance and disguise it as a proper grown up argument. Dont feed the leftist trolls they will never be satisfied

 

[JessFR]

^^^This is complete bullshit but I’d love to see the link, from what I’ve just read there’s studies which refute this half brained theory as well.

-GC

Wait, what? Wtf kinda logic is that. Someone says they have a study that suggests one thing. You ask for the link, but before you've even read it, you say it's bullshit, on the basis that you've seen other studies which supposedly say the opposite.

That's one of the most transparent examples of "I don't care about evidence that disagrees with my point of view" that I've ever seen...ever. It really is on another level than the norm.

Tell me I've misread this, please.

It's unfair for biological men to compete against biological women. They will almost universally have an advantage. It doesn't matter what people's psychological gender is, their sex will determine how they present to the world and the advantages/disadvantages they have. Nothing will change that biological men have bigger lungs and hearts, stronger bones, and more dense musculature than women, even at the olympic level.

Mmm, I'm not sure that reasoning makes as much sense as it appears. If nothing else, the majority of the strength differences betweenness end and women are hormonal. Which isn't something fixed at birth in an absolute way, unalterable way. That's why athletes cheat by taking steroids.. they're basically taking male hormones. So men basically tend to outperform women because, well, they get to take the steroids their body makes and not have it be cheating.

Now on the other hand, men are on average bigger than women. And that is something that's pretty fixed. And I don't know for sure but it seems quite plausible that makes a difference. But it's just a huge generalization. And it doesn't make much sense as a rule in any sport which isn't segregated by height. Because otherwise banning you're applying the segregation inconsistently without good reason.

So yeah, no, I'm not sure I really buy this. Men and women do absolutely have differences, but most of them are hormonal, and so fluid. And that's exactly what this threads about is it not? The subject of this thread is supposedly intersex no? Not transgender. And in that instance, your argument seems totally backwards. A woman who who through some abnormality produces far more testosterone than most women IS going to have an advantage, but by your reasoning will be allowed to compete. While a transgender person seeking to play as a female with hormone levels totally normal for a female will, at best, have less of an advantage, but will be banned.

And this is exactly why I think these rules are all kinda silly. They're all arbitrary anyway.

 

[Foreigner]

fuck your gender norms. "it should stay that way because it is that way/has always been that way" is a logical fallacy, an appeal to tradition, its not a valid reason for anything

So mature! But that's what I've come to expect from the radical left.

 

[Foreigner]

^^^This is complete bullshit but I’d love to see the link, from what I’ve just read there’s studies which refute this half brained theory as well.

-GC

So you call my entire post bullshit without even dissecting a single point with your so-called studies. That's pretty intellectually lazy.

 

[Ganjcat]

So you call my entire post bullshit without even dissecting a single point with your so-called studies. That's pretty intellectually lazy.

i think this guy is talking sense

 

[Foreigner]

Wait, what? Wtf kinda logic is that. Someone says they have a study that suggests one thing. You ask for the link, but before you've even read it, you say it's bullshit, on the basis that you've seen other studies which supposedly say the opposite.

That's one of the most transparent examples of "I don't care about evidence that disagrees with my point of view" that I've ever seen...ever. It really is on another level than the norm.

Tell me I've misread this, please.



Mmm, I'm not sure that reasoning makes as much sense as it appears. If nothing else, the majority of the strength differences betweenness end and women are hormonal. Which isn't something fixed at birth in an absolute way, unalterable way. That's why athletes cheat by taking steroids.. they're basically taking male hormones. So men basically tend to outperform women because, well, they get to take the steroids their body makes and not have it be cheating.

Now on the other hand, men are on average bigger than women. And that is something that's pretty fixed. And I don't know for sure but it seems quite plausible that makes a difference. But it's just a huge generalization. And it doesn't make much sense as a rule in any sport which isn't segregated by height. Because otherwise banning you're applying the segregation inconsistently without good reason.

So yeah, no, I'm not sure I really buy this. Men and women do absolutely have differences, but most of them are hormonal, and so fluid. And that's exactly what this threads about is it not? The subject of this thread is supposedly intersex no? Not transgender. And in that instance, your argument seems totally backwards. A woman who who through some abnormality produces far more testosterone than most women IS going to have an advantage, but by your reasoning will be allowed to compete. While a transgender person seeking to play as a female with hormone levels totally normal for a female will, at best, have less of an advantage, but will be banned.

And this is exactly why I think these rules are all kinda silly. They're all arbitrary anyway.

This thread is about gender identity, which includes intersex and trans, but is not limited to them. Am I not supposed to speak to the broader subject here?

Looking at the sexes through a binary lens (which is obviously not the entire picture), the two sexes have demographic averages. Of course you will find women who have more testosterone than their peers, or men who have less than their peers. However, the averages of both groups bears out differences in physiology. It's why there are different sports leagues for men and women in the first place. Even males who have less testosterone than their peers will, on average, have physiological advantage over females. The hormone profile at puberty will determine things like bone density, lung capacity, heart development, muscle development. The average male is physically stronger than the average female, especially in the upper body strength. Females, however, tend to have stronger lower body strength and resiliency because of how puberty affects widening of the hips. For example more females can do the splits than men, more females can perform flexible forms like ballet than males can. It's why females excel at certain sports like gymnastics and synchronized swimming.

I disagree with your assessment that more testosterone is beneficial across the board. It depends on the context. Also keep in mind that you are judging top tier athletes, and not run of the mill public sports leagues. Olympiads and high level athletes are specifically selected because of their freakish characteristics. The same is true with dancers.

What we are seeing is that in areas where males who identify as women are allowed to participate in female sports leagues, they outperform them. They earn awards, medals, and high placements as "women", despite their physiological advantage. It's major cognitive dissonance. We're all just supposed to watch and clap and pretend that this "woman" is exactly the same as the other women, and that we don't see a discrepancy. It's not that I don't want to refer to them by their preferred gender, it's that I think it's delusional to say they are exactly the same as other females. They're not. Physiologically they are male and they are going to have advantages. We can't just pave over this. It's ironic that I am accused of gender norming, but isn't pretending that these "women" are the same as other women the very definition of gender norming? What about non-binary trans people?

The same is true in rape relief shelters, like the Vancouver one I mentioned. One of the arguments recently made at a conference where this controversial issue was discussed is that, in one rape centre a "woman" who looked like a man with a beard wearing army fatigues got roomed with a female rape survivor. She had to leave the shelter because she did not feel safe. The shelter told her that she should do so because the shelter was trans inclusive. This was a shelter in Ontario, Canada.

I'm not trying to carte blanche trans rights. I'm saying it's COMPLICATED and we need judge things on a case by case basis, rather than make sweeping rules. I also stand by my statement that some trans women behave like aggressive misogynists very much in the same way that traditional misogynist men behave, but we are supposed to treat them like women. They come across as men invading women's safe spaces, and dismantling them with male entitlement, even though we are supposed to call them women. They do not have the lived experience of being women because for most of their lives they presented as male, which gave them privilege and entitlement, the same privilege that they are using to invade women's safe spaces while silencing all discussion about it.

It's not going to work. You can't force this down people's throats. Women's rights, black rights, gay rights... they took decades of public discourse and dialogue, and a lot of opposition, before the general public came to see the injustice of it all. It was a grassroots approach. The trans movement is a top down approach, fueled by cadres of delusional boujie intellectual leftists who have taken over college campuses with their speech and identity politics.

I agree that traditional gender norms is problematic. So is forcing another set of ideological speech and identity norms on society before we have even properly framed this. We don't even have a clear definition of what trans is yet, in law, or how to set about criteria of what a real trans person is, other than someone's say so. Yet we are making speech laws that silence discourse. It's totally nutso.

 

[JessFR]

You're right, it is complicated. But you're claiming differences without evidence. Now in fairness, so am I. Ive presented no evidence either. Just my own understanding.

The question at the end of the day is, do transgender individuals who've spent years subject to the hormones of their identified gender, still experience the benefits and detrements of their assigned sex at birth.

I tend to doubt it. But neither of us has presented proof. I for one would like to see some if some were available.

Without that, we just have our assessments based on our understanding of the situation.

My understanding is that hormonal chemistry makes up the bulk of the physical athletic differences. And that anything else falls well within the margin of normal varience, and be no different than say, the advantage a tall person might have over a short one.

Ultimately I'm on the side of the evidence. We can both have our own assessments of what seems to make sense. But we are both just making assumptions.

I don't care enough to find evidence, I really don't care about sports, and while I'm supportive of lgbtiq stuff, I admit it's not something that appeals to me as a cause beyond the sheer principle of the matter. In that I don't approve of discrimination in any form.

But hey, if anyone here has a study that shows something different to my assumptions, I'd be curious to see it.